Hal Lindsey will be up all night, and then some...

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Wayne

Tempus faciendi, Domine.
and Clarence Larkin, well, Clarence ....

SENIOR Eurocrats are secretly plotting to create a super-powerful EU president to realise their dream of abolishing *Britain and other nation states, the Daily Express can reveal.

[ Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: EU plot to scrap Britain ]

“My worry is that the president will end up having the charisma of Van Rompuy and the economic management skills of Barroso.”

Yes, we all share that fear.
 
The one-world government - the socialist dream for more than a century now - one continent at a time.
 
It's interesting how "dispensationalism," and the cottage industry of "end time" speculation has re-invented itself in this generation:

1) First the ten (10) member European Common Market were the 10 horns on the beast (in Revelation)

2) When it went to twelve (12) members, they said three (3) countries counted as one (the "Benelux" countries)

3) When Mr. Gorbachev arose with a birth mark on his head, that was the mark of "the beast/antichrist" (from the 'Old Roman Empire,' even though he wasn't really from the Common Market or EU area)

4) When the European Union went into the high 20's of member countries, dispensationalism went figurative and said it "represented 'New Rome.'"

But remember, dispensationalism requires that all (prophecy) Scripture be interpreted literally. Other Scriptures can be figurative or allegorical, but not prophecy.... except in the case of the invention of 'new Rome.'

This illustrates the problem with creatures trying to represent the Sovereignty of God in their limited, created minds.

The single greatest flaw in the dispensational framework for interpreting the Scriptures is that it takes the focus off of Jesus Christ.

That is serious indeed.
 
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The one-world government - the socialist dream for more than a century now - one continent at a time.

I've always seen it as more a far right thing - many of those who set it up had links with Vichy. Though, to be fair, hard right and hard left tend to be more alike than either care to admit.

Just glad I was born in Bermuda - at least I have a bolt hole.
 
This is a digression that borders on moving this thread to "political", but you touch on a common myth that bothers me. There are many quotes that could be produced in refutation of this myth, but this is one of the more eloquent:

From mises.org

National Socialism
Mises Daily: Monday, September 28, 1998 by Ralph Reiland

In 1944, Ludwig von Mises published one of his least-known masterworks: Omnipotent Government: The Rise of the Total State and Total War. Drawing on his prewar experience in Vienna, watching the rise of the national socialists in Germany (the Nazis), who would eventually take over his own homeland, he set out to draw parallels between the Russian and German experience with socialism.

It was common in those days, as it is in ours, to identify the Communists as leftist and the Nazis as rightists, as if they stood on opposite ends of the ideological spectrum. But Mises knew differently. They both sported the same ideological pedigree of socialism. “The German and Russian systems of socialism have in common the fact that the government has full control of the means of production. It decides what shall be produced and how. It allots to each individual a share of consumer’s goods for his consumption.”


The difference between the systems, wrote Mises, is that the German pattern “maintains private ownership of the means of production and keeps the appearance of ordinary prices, wages, and markets.” But in fact the government directs production decisions, curbs entrepreneurship and the labor market, and determines wages and interest rates by central authority. “Market exchange,” says Mises, “is only a sham.”

Mises’s account is confirmed by a remarkable book that appeared in 1939, published by Vanguard Press in New York City (and unfortunately out of print today). It is The Vampire Economy: Doing Business Under Fascism by Guenter Reimann, then a 35-year old German writer. Through contacts with German business owners, Reimann documented how the “monster machine” of the Nazis crushed the autonomy of the private sector through onerous regulations, harsh inspections, and the threat of confiscatory fines for petty offenses.

“Industrialists were visited by state auditors who had strict orders to examine the balance sheets and all bookkeeping entries of the company or individual businessman for the preceding two, three or more years until some error or false entry was found,” explains Reimann. “The slightest formal mistake was punished with tremendous penalties. A fine of millions of marks was imposed for a single bookkeeping error.”

Reimann quotes from a businessman’s letter: “You have no idea how far state control goes and how much power the Nazi representatives have over our work. The worst of it is that they are so ignorant. These Nazi radicals think of nothing except ‘distributing the wealth.’ Some businessmen have even started studying Marxist theories, so that they will have a better understanding of the present economic system.
 
I've always seen it as more a far right thing - many of those who set it up had links with Vichy.

The EU is actually the child of the late Otto von Habsburg. He was working on it before World War II, and devoted his life to the project. Although he did serve as a MEP and head of the Pan European Union, he generally kept a low profile and worked behind the scenes. His successor, Karl, is also involved in pan-European activities, and formerly served as a MEP.
 
This is a digression that borders on moving this thread to "political", but you touch on a common myth that bothers me. There are many quotes that could be produced in refutation of this myth, but this is one of the more eloquent:

From mises.org

National Socialism
Mises Daily: Monday, September 28, 1998 by Ralph Reiland

In 1944, Ludwig von Mises published one of his least-known masterworks: Omnipotent Government: The Rise of the Total State and Total War. Drawing on his prewar experience in Vienna, watching the rise of the national socialists in Germany (the Nazis), who would eventually take over his own homeland, he set out to draw parallels between the Russian and German experience with socialism.

It was common in those days, as it is in ours, to identify the Communists as leftist and the Nazis as rightists, as if they stood on opposite ends of the ideological spectrum. But Mises knew differently. They both sported the same ideological pedigree of socialism. “The German and Russian systems of socialism have in common the fact that the government has full control of the means of production. It decides what shall be produced and how. It allots to each individual a share of consumer’s goods for his consumption.”


The difference between the systems, wrote Mises, is that the German pattern “maintains private ownership of the means of production and keeps the appearance of ordinary prices, wages, and markets.” But in fact the government directs production decisions, curbs entrepreneurship and the labor market, and determines wages and interest rates by central authority. “Market exchange,” says Mises, “is only a sham.”

Mises’s account is confirmed by a remarkable book that appeared in 1939, published by Vanguard Press in New York City (and unfortunately out of print today). It is The Vampire Economy: Doing Business Under Fascism by Guenter Reimann, then a 35-year old German writer. Through contacts with German business owners, Reimann documented how the “monster machine” of the Nazis crushed the autonomy of the private sector through onerous regulations, harsh inspections, and the threat of confiscatory fines for petty offenses.

“Industrialists were visited by state auditors who had strict orders to examine the balance sheets and all bookkeeping entries of the company or individual businessman for the preceding two, three or more years until some error or false entry was found,” explains Reimann. “The slightest formal mistake was punished with tremendous penalties. A fine of millions of marks was imposed for a single bookkeeping error.”

Reimann quotes from a businessman’s letter: “You have no idea how far state control goes and how much power the Nazi representatives have over our work. The worst of it is that they are so ignorant. These Nazi radicals think of nothing except ‘distributing the wealth.’ Some businessmen have even started studying Marxist theories, so that they will have a better understanding of the present economic system.

Exactly, Wayne! Jonah Goldberg, a writer and editor with National Review, wrote an entire book on this subject (the bolded part of your post) - Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left from Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning (New York: Doubleday, 2007). It's about how the Left tries to make fascism a child of the Right, but its really a product of the Left. He believes that Woodrow Wilson was America's first fascist President, for instance.

---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 PM ----------

This is a digression that borders on moving this thread to "political", but you touch on a common myth that bothers me. There are many quotes that could be produced in refutation of this myth, but this is one of the more eloquent:

From mises.org

National Socialism
Mises Daily: Monday, September 28, 1998 by Ralph Reiland

In 1944, Ludwig von Mises published one of his least-known masterworks: Omnipotent Government: The Rise of the Total State and Total War. Drawing on his prewar experience in Vienna, watching the rise of the national socialists in Germany (the Nazis), who would eventually take over his own homeland, he set out to draw parallels between the Russian and German experience with socialism.

It was common in those days, as it is in ours, to identify the Communists as leftist and the Nazis as rightists, as if they stood on opposite ends of the ideological spectrum. But Mises knew differently. They both sported the same ideological pedigree of socialism. “The German and Russian systems of socialism have in common the fact that the government has full control of the means of production. It decides what shall be produced and how. It allots to each individual a share of consumer’s goods for his consumption.”


The difference between the systems, wrote Mises, is that the German pattern “maintains private ownership of the means of production and keeps the appearance of ordinary prices, wages, and markets.” But in fact the government directs production decisions, curbs entrepreneurship and the labor market, and determines wages and interest rates by central authority. “Market exchange,” says Mises, “is only a sham.”

Mises’s account is confirmed by a remarkable book that appeared in 1939, published by Vanguard Press in New York City (and unfortunately out of print today). It is The Vampire Economy: Doing Business Under Fascism by Guenter Reimann, then a 35-year old German writer. Through contacts with German business owners, Reimann documented how the “monster machine” of the Nazis crushed the autonomy of the private sector through onerous regulations, harsh inspections, and the threat of confiscatory fines for petty offenses.

“Industrialists were visited by state auditors who had strict orders to examine the balance sheets and all bookkeeping entries of the company or individual businessman for the preceding two, three or more years until some error or false entry was found,” explains Reimann. “The slightest formal mistake was punished with tremendous penalties. A fine of millions of marks was imposed for a single bookkeeping error.”

Reimann quotes from a businessman’s letter: “You have no idea how far state control goes and how much power the Nazi representatives have over our work. The worst of it is that they are so ignorant. These Nazi radicals think of nothing except ‘distributing the wealth.’ Some businessmen have even started studying Marxist theories, so that they will have a better understanding of the present economic system.

Exactly, Wayne! Jonah Goldberg, a writer and editor with National Review, wrote an entire book on this subject (the bolded part of your post) - Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left from Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning (New York: Doubleday, 2007). It's about how the Left tries to make fascism a child of the Right, but its really a product of the Left. He believes that Woodrow Wilson was America's first fascist President, for instance.
 
I wonder if the EU becomes like the Left Beguiled series, if the writers will file a lawsuit against it, claiming that they made a stage play from the books without obtaining permission :think: .
 
The idea that the EU will be any more successful than e.g. Communism in leading to a "one world government" is facetious.

Already the EU hasn't been able to create a coherent single currency for 17 of its member states, and is doing all in its power to keep the Euro together, against discontent from various nationalities that don't like their fiscal policy being dictated by Brussels.

Christ sooner or later breaks up these attempts at world dominion by nations, conglomerations of nations and empires, as they get too big for their boots and become a hindrance rather than a help to the growth of His kingdom.

Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. (Ps 2:8-9, ESV)

And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure. (Dan 2:44-45)

The attempts to dominate the world post-Roman Empire, won't have the strength stability or longevity to last in the way Rome did:
And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. (Dan 2:41-43)

The pervasive influence of Christianity and Christian principles, and the growth of Christ's Kingdom, is just too much to allow men to gather together against God and His Anointed, in this way, for long.

Also Christ is ruling by His providence on the side of the Church.

E.g. the Soviet Union lasted 74 years, before Christ broke her up, which is a blip, historically-speaking.

The EU is already showing signs of cracking-up, although it may well last in some form or another for much longer. It doesn't take Christ by surprise in His plans for world dominion anyway, contra Dispensational-thinking.
 
One World Government conspiracy theorists have likely never tried to run a large organization much less trying to get countries to abandon their self-interests.
 
One World Government conspiracy theorists have likely never tried to run a large organization much less trying to get countries to abandon their self-interests.
The fact that it will never succeed does not mean that men won't conspire together to try. History demonstrates repeatedly that they will.
 
Let's see them sort out their Euro-mess, before they take over the world!
Tend to agree. The EU is more disjointed than its proponents are willing to admit.

The "Euro-mess" is messy indeed. Fraud and corruption that would make a Chicago politician blush are the order of the day.
 
One World Government conspiracy theorists have likely never tried to run a large organization much less trying to get countries to abandon their self-interests.
The fact that it will never succeed does not mean that men won't conspire together to try. History demonstrates repeatedly that they will.

Yes. I was being postmilennially optimistic in my above post. The fact that these attempts ultimately fail doesn't mean that alot of grief can be inflicted on God's people meantime.

For example, while dispensationalists, in the USA and the UK, were ranting on about 3 1/2 or 7 years supposed future persecution by a putative "antichrist", Christians in the Soviet Union had to put up with 74 years of persecution by a real manifestation of the Neronic Beast.

Likewise persecuted brethren around the globe, wherevever they are and whenever they live.

Meanwhile for 1,500 years the Papacy has sat enthroned in God's Temple leading vast multitudes astray, and doing more damage to people's souls than any dispensational Mr Antichrist could ever do in 3 1/2 or 7 years.

The EU - at present - seems to be mainly inflicting economic and political grief on everyone, rather than major or minor physical persecution on God's people.

That could always change. You can't put anything past these useless, money-wasting, godless bureaucrats and "politicians".
 
There are actually good men - I don't know if any are Christians - like Daniel Hannan (Conservative), Nigel Farage (United Kingdom Independence Party) and Martin Callanan (Conservative), who become Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) and go up to the seat of the Beast - if that is what it is - in Brussels and Strasbourg, and give it a good kicking!

E.g.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypLwI5AQvY
 
But shall there not be a government which will rule over at least most of the nations, require the complete allegiance of its subjects (which will include the renouncing of Christ and His true church, as competing for that allegiance), and which will (under God's hidden sovereignty) make war on a) an entity called Babylon, gathering other nations to accomplish this, and b) on the saints, with a mind to exterminate Christ's kingdom on earth?

What I wonder is where China fits into these things, for it does seem to be the rising power in many respects. Wrong as the dispensationalists are about so much, they do have a feel for some of the dynamics of the end.
 
Well there are different approaches, as you know.

As a postmil, I believe there will be a final falling away at the end, after a long period of Gospel and earthly prosperity - symbolised by Gog and Magog - which will be a great apostasy but apparently relatively short, but what does "a little time" mean here?

There will be indeed ongoing, and no doubt increasing, persecution until the Beast (persecution by un-Christian government) and the False Prophet (erroneous teaching in the Church) are defeated.

Babylon - apostate Christianity - has been increasingly challenged and marginalised by secular civil governments since the Middle Ages. "The Beast shall hate the Whore" :2cents:
 
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