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Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Originally posted by sola_gratia
Some christians I know are having a party on halloween, and I know people will be dressing up and all that. They want me to come, and I don't know if I should. What do you think? I told them I won't be dressing up if I do, but that I am still thinking about whether or not I am going to come.
[Edited on 10-15-2005 by sola_gratia]
Dress up as the pope. It only seems appropriate.
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Originally posted by Puddleglum
Honest question here:
Can someone explain the difference between the "don't practice Halloween because it's associated with this bad stuff" argument (which is what I think I'm hearing here) and the "don't listen to rock music because it's associated with bad stuff" argument (which seems to not be a popular position here)?
Thanks,
-Jessica
[Edited on 10-15-2005 by Puddleglum]
Jessica,
Halloween is directly associated with evil. Music, per se, is not. However, I know there are many music groups that subscribe to the worship of devils. I suggest, for the believer to as well, reject those whom hold evil and the devil dear.
Originally posted by Puddleglum
Andrew,
You mentioned that Hallooween was originally a religious holiday (both pagan & RC). Does this mean that it is necessarily a religious observance today - why? Obviously, if it is intrinsically an act of worship, it's wrong. But I don't see how my 8-year-old (hypothetical) neighbour who dresses up as a pirate and goes trick-or-treating is worshipping pagan deities or saints anymore than he would be worshipping God if he were to attend a liberal church on Easter with his aunt.
Also, how does the RPW apply?
AN APPENDIX,
Touching Days and Places for Publick Worship.
THERE is no day commanded in scripture to be kept holy under the gospel but the Lord's day, which is the Christian Sabbath.
Festival days, vulgarly called Holy-days, having no warrant in the word of God, are not to be continued.
Nevertheless, it is lawful and necessary, upon special emergent occasions, to separate a day or days for publick fasting or thanksgiving, as the several eminent and extraordinary dispensations of God's providence shall administer cause and opportunity to his people.
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
I think what you are suggesting is that by simply calling a religious holiday "secular" (or letting "culture" do so over time) it loses its religious association.
Granting for the sake of argument that this is possible -- which I do not in fact believe . . .
. . . I would then ask the person who wants to go "trick-or-treating" why does he want to do this? What is he "celebrating" or "observing" exactly? If dressing up as a pirate to get candy is the ultimate goal, then why pick a day set apart by pagans for the worship of the devil or the Catholics for prayers for the dead? Why the need to "trick" people or scare people? It is just good harmless fun to obtain as much candy as possible from people? It this wholesome activity or gluttonous?
If a young person wants to have fun in a wholesome way on this day why not observe the annual commemoration of Reformation Day?
(which is not a religious holiday but a civil holiday, a distinction of crucial importance, I might add)
Halloween is, as I mentioned, acknowledged by most today to be a traditional holiday for the celebration of that which is occultic and evil. Why would Christians want to partake of an evil holiday? The customs are not so innocent really. If someone wants to dress up as a pirate on the grounds that they have the Christian liberty to do so, then I will grant that dressing up as a pirate per se is not evil, but to do so to participate in an evil holiday makes it a religious act, whether the person is conscious of the fact or not.
The fact remains October 31 is still a date that pagans and Catholics set apart on the church calendars for religious observances that are unBiblical.
Walk into a pagan or Catholic church on that date and see that the ancient religious observance is still going on (on second thought, don't walk into such churches).
It has never stopped being a religious holiday to the people who invented the holiday and who continue its traditions and observances to the present day.
That makes it a religious holiday whether atheists and agnostics (and Christians) want to partake of the traditions and rites or not.
That being the case, religious holidays must be tested by the RPW, and there is indeed no warrant for such a religious holiday.
The Westminster Assembly's Directory for the Publick Worship of God was very conscious of the church calendar espoused by the Roman Church (and others) and -- on the grounds of the Regulative Principle of Worship -- banished all such holidays that lacked Scriptural warrant. That leaves only one religious holiday for Christians to observe -- the Lord's Day.
AN APPENDIX,
Touching Days and Places for Publick Worship.
THERE is no day commanded in scripture to be kept holy under the gospel but the Lord's day, which is the Christian Sabbath.
Festival days, vulgarly called Holy-days, having no warrant in the word of God, are not to be continued.
Nevertheless, it is lawful and necessary, upon special emergent occasions, to separate a day or days for publick fasting or thanksgiving, as the several eminent and extraordinary dispensations of God's providence shall administer cause and opportunity to his people.
December 10, Session 17, 1638.
And next in particular, concerning festival days findeth that in the explication of the first head of the first book of discipline it was thought good that the feasts of Christmas, Circumcision, Epiphany, with the feasts of the Apostles, Martyrs and Virgin Mary be utterly abolished because they are neither commanded nor warranted by Scripture and that such as observe them be punished by Civil Magistrates. Here utter abolition is craved and not reformation of abuses only and that because the observation of such feasts have no warrant from the word of God. (The Acts of the General Assemblies of the Church of Scotland, pp. 37-38)
Originally posted by Puddleglum
Okay.
So why is it a religious holiday even if people "don't even think about what they are doing"? Are you saying that it's still a religious holiday because other people think that it is / created it to be one?
Originally posted by SaiphWhile everyone is outside running around in costumes of demons, and ghouls, and villians, my friends and family will be inside singing the words of Luther in juxtaposition to the heathen festivities.
[Edited on 10-20-2005 by Saiph]
I am guessing my neighbourhood is all-too-typical in that most people arrive home from work and immediately drive their cars into the garage. More often than not they do not emerge again until the next morning when they leave for work once more. It would be a terrible breach of Canadian social etiquette for me to knock on a person's door and ask them for a small gift or even just to say "hello" to them. Yet on Halloween this barriers all come down. I have the opportunity to greet every person in the neighbourhood. I have the opportunity to introduce myself to the family who moved in just down the street a few weeks ago and to greet some other people I have not seen for weeks or months. At the same time, those people's children will come knocking on my door. We have two possible responses. We can turn the lights out and sit inside, seeking to shelter ourselves from the pagan influence of the little Harry Potters, Batmans and ballerinas, or we can greet them, gush over them, and make them feel welcome. We can prove ourselves to be the family who genuinelly cares about our neighbours, or we can be the family who shows that we want to interact with them only on our terms.
Isn't that rather insular? Is the reformation just for tight little groups huddled in homes (seemingly) in fear of contamination from people doing stuff that is pretending to be like things that are partially maybe associated with goofed on versions of evil (several steps removed here).
or we can be the family who shows that we want to interact with them only on our terms.
Originally posted by Saiph
But if MardiGras is going outside of my window, you bet I am staying inside.
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
This is merely partaking of rituals in a vain manner.
. . .
There is no reason to partake of the rituals of a Satanic holiday. Christians are told to abstain from false religious rituals throughout the Scriptures (see Deut. 12.30, for example).
Originally posted by Puddleglum
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
This is merely partaking of rituals in a vain manner.
. . .
There is no reason to partake of the rituals of a Satanic holiday. Christians are told to abstain from false religious rituals throughout the Scriptures (see Deut. 12.30, for example).
Hmm . . . I'll have to think about that! Thanks, Andrew.
Originally posted by Saiph
Fair enough Paul. It is not sexual debauchery, but it is pagan idolatry. So how about a gay pride parade going down your street ?
Would you pass out water bottles to the marchers ?
I also don't see any second commandment violations. Nobody is burning incense, or bowing to statues, or slaughtering animals on altars, or kissing icons.
I disagree with all of you. Halloween is not satanic. It is just cheesy.
The best argument for not celebrating it in my opinion is not the catholic origin, or witch-hunter paranoia misinformed occult label of "satanic", but because it is just plain ridiculous.
We are called to love God with our whole mind. So how can you be excercising that love when wearing red tights and rubber horns begging door to door for candy ?
I will close with the words of a fifth grade friend of mine, that made me never want to celebrate it again (and hopefully I won't get banned) :
"Dude, your going to dress up and go trick-or-treating ? ? That is so totally gay."
Anything not done in faith is sin remember.
He that is not for me is against me.
And didn't the Beatitudes reveal that idolatry is a heart attitude, not just prostration before a statue ? ?
Brother, you have the liberty to do whatever you want on Halloween.
It falls on a Monday this year.
I personally want to contrast the inane celebrations and trick-or-treating with a thanksgiving party for the reformation.
If you choose to evangelize your neighbors, great, and seriously, my prayers are with you.
I think I will save that for the other 300+ days of the year.