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Warren does touch on that claim but I’m not too concerned with that.What's really ironic is that CVT almost never interacts with Thomas in any detail. You don't find any serious analysis of key texts in Thomas. Everything Warren says about Fesko applies to CVT's analysis.
Warren does touch on that claim but I’m not too concerned with that.
Is Thomas a Calvinist? Or is Calvin a Thomist? I believe that’s our biggest concern… no?
Did Aquinas borrow anti-Christian thought from Aristotle? That is the concern
While Calvin does not explicitly repudiate Aquinas’s method of remotion and other Aristotelean ideas about form and matter, he never appeals to knowing God by beginning with experience and then negating the positive aspects of the empirical world until we reach an empty universal that we call God
Ok, but a belief that God can be deduced via human reasoning in conjunction with natural revelation I reckon would be problematic.It's literally the issue. By not dealing with it he shows himself ignorant of key claims.
Not one single person outside of John Gerstner claimed Thomas is a Calvinist. This is a red herring.
Did CVT borrow anti-Christian thought from Kant? That is the concern. (See what I am doing? You are poisoning the well by calling Aristotle "anti-Christian," which means we need to say things like WCF 5.2 is "anti-Christian).
Ok, but a belief that God can be deduced via human reasoning in conjunction with natural revelation I reckon would be problematic.
I think it comes down to the operation of grace. The extent of our depravity and how all encompassing grace is to our entire understanding and comprehension of spiritual matters which thus spills into every other area of existence. I’m not sure this piece can be glossed over. I think that’s what’s at stake, but I may be wrong. That’s what I think CVT is getting at. I believe that’s where he’s coming from in his apologetic and critique of what he seems to deem a lesser approach.
So, wouldn’t an apologetic that leads with the Revealed word of truth be proper? I’m not saying common ground isn’t a desirable meeting place. But a futile appeal to reason with a spiritually hardened world feels like a cowardly approach. I believe a carnal or shallow Christianity is born out of a high view of a fallen world. I’m not looking down on the fallen world. But God’s glory can’t be denied.There is a difference between knowing That God exists and what kind of God exists. Natural revelation claims the former, not the latter. That is completely legitimate.
Anthony this video is very helpful and I have been listening to it as part of my reflections on the Divine passability vs mutualism debate. Lane Tipton is a very good interpreter of Van Til.Hmmm....Mic drop?
The last 15 miutes or so is pretty relevant on CVT....
I’m on my 3rd viewing.Anthony this video is very helpful and I have been listening to it as part of my reflections on the Divine passability vs mutualism debate. Lane Tipton is a very good interpreter of Van Til.
I think an institutional church thrives when it is elevated above revelation or revealed truth. Aquinas is part of that tradition. That’s more than a small problem no matter how off the rails and irrelevant the RCC has become….Aquinas holds to physical premotion. He holds to the priority of divine grace. Unfortunately, it is mediated through baptism and that gets problematic, but CVT's critique otherwise misses the target.
I think an institutional church thrives when it is elevated above revelation or revealed truth. Aquinas is part of that tradition. That’s more than a small problem no matter how off the rails and irrelevant the RCC has become….
So, wouldn’t an apologetic that leads with the Revealed word of truth be proper? I’m not saying common ground isn’t a desirable meeting place. But a futile appeal to reason with a spiritually hardened world feels like a cowardly approach. I believe a carnal or shallow Christianity is born out of a high view of a fallen world. I’m not looking down on the fallen world. But God’s glory can’t be denied.
That's the problem. You are assuming reason and the laws of logic to even interpret the Bible. This is where presups confuse the order of being with the order of knowing.
But how is that a problem for the believer. We are most consistent. Im wondering if your conception of things like reason and logic are being parsed from true knowledge - or the origin of true knowledge. Isn’t this what CVT means when he suggests ….. hold on….That's the problem. You are assuming reason and the laws of logic to even interpret the Bible. This is where presups confuse the order of being with the order of knowing.
I’m saying reason without regeneration. How can a believer check their knowledge at the door when doing apologetics?That's the problem. You are assuming reason and the laws of logic to even interpret the Bible. This is where presups confuse the order of being with the order of knowing.
Natural revelation is secondary though, correct? Does Aquinas make the distinction between natural man and regenerated man the way a Calvinist would?Anyone who believes in the visible church believes at some level in the institutional church. I'm also not sure how anyone is elevating x above special revelation. If anything, Aquinas is usually guilty of grace being elevated above nature.
I also note in your first sentence about "revelation." Revelation also includes natural revelation, and sometimes natural revelation, like in astronomy, corrects how we interpret special revelation.
I’m not sure how the order of being —— a product/order of God’s creation and knowing/gaining knowledge —— via the physical world and experience fits in CVT’s analysis. But I think his main distinction is between belief and unbelief. True and false origins. The unbeliever at worst gets it wrong and at best may have a slight conception but the truth is repressed to the point that they are in the dark. Doesnt this darkness have to be lifted first?I’m saying reason without regeneration. How can a believer check their knowledge at the door when doing apologetics? Of course the order is confused —— the former is sorely lacking. There is not real truth at the core since the former are outside God in simply being. They are willfully ignorant. We are being before we are knowing, in a restorative sense. So we can only know if we know rightly.
Natural revelation is secondary though, correct? Does Aquinas make the distinction between natural man and regenerated man the way a Calvinist would?
I’m saying reason without regeneration. How can a believer check their knowledge at the door when doing apologetics?
I found this quoted portion online and it would make me a bit skeptical.
”Theologian St. Thomas Aquinas and philosopher Aristotle had a lot in common even though they were born about sixteen hundred years apart. They both believed in the God/s and respected them. Of course during the time of Aristotle, the many people believed in more than one God. Aristotle respected the many Gods, but still doubted them. The common ideas through these two great individuals help improve Christian thought during the thirteenth century.
One idea that was first introduced by Aristotle and then used by St. Thomas Aquinas was that the truths of faith and those of sense experience are fully compatible and complementary. This means that one can only understand the mysteries of God, through revelation. One example of this is the mystery of the incarnation. Incarnation is when God the Son, became human and lived on this world.
Another idea that was first introduced by Aristotle and then used by St. Thomas Aquinas was that all knowledge originates in thought toward the comprehension the human soul, the angels, and God Himself.
In conclusion, St. Thomas Aquinas renewed some of the ideas of Aristotle’s work and made these the philosophical foundation for Christian thought. In essence, St. Thomas Aquinas finished Aristotle started. Aristotle was a man who was ahead of his time. His ideas were not accepted because they were different than those of his time. That is when St. Thomas came and used Aristotle’s old ideas were used in religion. St. Thomas Aquinas was in the right place at the right time and was able pick up where Aristotle had left off.”
I’m not sure how the order of being —— a product of God’s creation and knowing—— via the physical world fits in CVT’s analysis. But I think his main distinction is between belief and unbelief. True and false origins.
@BayouHuguenot …. You are smarter than I, at the risk of defeating your own argument, explain what the author espouses here:
”Thomistic philosophy undermines this definition of worldview. Van Til objects that Aquinas tries to integrate an anti-Christian view of all three areas of philosophy into Christianity, making Thomism inadequately integrated. The Thomistic procedure can be described as attempting to use an anti-Christian epistemology to prove Christian metaphysics – namely, the Christian God. (Things aren’t exactly this neat. No philosopher has developed an epistemology without having some concept of metaphysics in view. What we claim exists and how we claim to know what exists are inextricably related issues.) As I have explained, Van Til argues that the Aristotelian epistemology can only lead to an anti-Christian view of metaphysics, not the God of the Bible. If “worldview” seems like an alien concept to Thomists, it is because their philosophy is not integrated. Their distinction between reason and faith, with the first derived from Aristotle and the second derived from the Bible, undermines viewing Christianity as a worldview, having an integrated view of metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics. Van Til says, “Both men [Warfield and Bavinck] view the place of Scripture as imbedded in their total outlook on life. They do not build the first story of their house by reason in order then to add a second story built by faith. Their outlook on life is a living whole. For convenience we speak of this total outlook on reality as a world and life view.” Van Til depicts Thomists as having a two-story house with the first story built from Aristotle’s philosophy, which is then used to reach the second story that is built from the Bible. But the first story is inconsistent with the second story, like a building that provides no way to reach the second floor from the first floor. In fact, the first floor is a collapsing floor because it undermines the possibility of reason, knowledge, and ethics."
It sounds like the God of the Bible, the source of all things, is sacrificed from the beginning…. That’s quite a blind spot. If I am interpreting the quote wrong, how would you ? even at risk of sounding objective. (You are a pretty fair minded guy from what I can tell ). Does the author get Aristotle wrong? That appears to be the concern.
I’m not sure how the order of being —— a product/order of God’s creation and knowing/gaining knowledge —— via the physical world and experience fits in CVT’s analysis. But I think his main distinction is between belief and unbelief. True and false origins. The unbeliever at worst gets it wrong and at best may have a slight conception but the truth is repressed to the point that they are in the dark. Doesnt this darkness have to be lifted first?
That quote seems a little off.What's the website?
.“In the wider context of his philosophy, Aquinas held that human reason, without supernatural aid, can establish the existence of God and the immortality of the soul; for those who cannot or do not engage in such strenuous intellectual activity, however, these matters are also revealed and can be known by faith.” https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christianity/Faith-and-reason
Seems at odds for us. A strange kind of overlap….between natural and supernatural knowledge of God via ‘intellectual activity.’
Sure. Unaided reason can provide a loose conception of those things. Aquinas is a brilliant thinker.I don't see the problem. Reason can establish that God exists, not what kind of God exists. Same with the soul. If I am not identical with my material body and the mind exists, then the soul follows.
I would also urge you to consult actual Thomist sources . Start with Feser.