Has PCUSA become the 'bottom rung for those who journey with Christ?'

[BJClark]

Has PCUSA become the \'bottom rung for those who journey with Christ?\'

I'm not sure where to post this, so I'm posting it here.

I was searching for a Covenant Church in South Western PA., and came across this link.

Various letters from PCUSA Pastors and Elders

One pastor, a Noel K. Anderson, executive pastor
First Presbyterian Church

Wrote this in response to something others within the PCUSA have said:

" Supposing some do leave the PCUSA for "nothing," doesn't this mean that we have become the bottom rung for those who journey with Christ through denominationalism? Wouldn't it be better to know that something "“ anything else "“ actually drew them away? To be left for nothing says that Presbyterianism offers them little more than the final straw of their walk of faith.

Either way, we're doing something terribly wrong."

"Except for those who leave by way of the grave, Presbyterian expatriates are doing something else with their Sunday mornings and we should know exactly what it is. If not Baptist or Willow Creek-ish congregations, then what? There is no nothing. They're golfing, or visiting the museum, or drinking coffee at the big bookstores "“ in any case, they've chosen something over the mission of the PCUSA. If there is a worthwhile field for a new task force, isn't this it? Let's find out where the Presbyterian expatriates really go.

What such a study will find is that most Presbyterians leave the PCUSA for churches with a simpler theology, polity and much higher moral standards. We will find that people's faith and discipleship only improves with their departure, and all thoughts of returning to the PCUSA become laughable. Once we find out where people are really going, we will begin to ask the right questions. "Nothing," indeed. "


The others show many Pastors within the PCUSA are dishardened and greatly concerned with the direction their G.A.
has been going for many years.

[Edited on 12-6-2005 by BJClark]

 

[Scott Bushey]

I would say the above is true to a degree. The PCUSA is losing members because possibly they are APOSTATE???

 

[wsw201]

The others show many Pastors within the PCUSA are dishardened and greatly concerned with the direction their G.A.
has been going for many years.

For many years??? Try many decades! Or even a century and a half!

 

[BJClark]

wsw201,

Decades most assuredly, one letter mentioned since the 1960's.

Another mentioned they are now losing members 1 every 13 minutes.

For many years??? Try many decades! Or even a century and a half!

 

[Scott Bushey]

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

And didn't they approve ordination of women ministers in the 30's?

 

[biblelighthouse]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
I would say the above is true to a degree. The PCUSA is losing members because possibly they are APOSTATE???

Gabriel, you have a real habit of throwing epithets around.

I am no fan of the PCUSA. I don't approve of them ordaining women, for example.

But I'm curious why you called them "apostate"? Perhaps I am just not familiar enough with the PCUSA. Have they officially denied the Trinity, or justification by faith, or something like that? Why call them "apostate"?

(By the way, I know of a large PCUSA church in the Dallas area that is every bit as conservative as a PCA church. . . . not every conservative church chose to leave the PCUSA!)




[Edited on 12-7-2005 by biblelighthouse]

 

[Me Died Blue]

Joseph, arguably the most notable thing is that they no longer affirm that Christ is necessary for salvation.

That is spoken of here, and a much more recent and full discussion of their current status and nature as a whole is here.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Gabriel? Uh, you mean Scott:
As far as epithets, every one I have thrown around lately has been validated; you know what they say, if the shoe fits.......

Chris,
Thanks for providing the links.................



[Edited on 12-7-2005 by Scott Bushey]

 

[biblelighthouse]

Originally posted by Me Died Blue
Joseph, arguably the most notable thing is that they no longer affirm that Christ is necessary for salvation.

Wow. That's pretty bad . . . about as bad as you can get. Even Rome doesn't do that (as far as I know)!

Can you point me to any hard documentation to prove this? I believe you, but when others ask me, I would like something "official" to point them to.

Thank you,
Joseph

 

[jfschultz]

Way back when I was at the University of Michigan and attending a UPCUSA (now PCUSA) church, one of the staff persons working with their college ministry said something denying the authority of Scripture. I made an appointment to meet with the "senior" associate minister (the senior minister had left to accept a call to Riverside). Quoting the Confession of 1967 the associate minister denied that the Bible was the Word of God. That was the last time I darkened the doors of that church.

 

[BJClark]

There is also the CCM, The Confessing Church Movement within
the PC-USA.

http://www.confessingchurch.homestead.com


From their website:

Proclaiming The Historic Christian Confessions Of The Reformed Faith

Confessions of the historic Reformed faith

The Apostles Creed

The Confession of 1967

The Heidelberg Catechism

The Nicene Creed (381 A.D.)

The Scots Confession

The Second Helvetic Confession

The Westminster Confession of Faith

Theological Declaration of Barmen

The Shorter Catechism

The Larger Catechism

 

[biblelighthouse]

Originally posted by BJClark

There is also the CCM, The Confessing Church Movement within
the PC-USA.

Hmmm. . . .

According to the following quote from their website, it looks like that particular movement has some very good goals:

Welcome to the Web site about the Confessing Church Movement within the Presbyterian Church (USA).



This site provides news, information, resources and other material -- including contact information about congregations -- as a service to those who are taking a stand by proclaiming their commitment to three essential doctrines:



1. That Jesus Christ alone is Lord of all and the way of salvation.



2. That holy Scripture is the Triune God's revealed Word, the Church's only infallible rule of faith and life.



3. That God's people are called to holiness in all aspects of life. This includes honoring the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, the only relationship within which sexual activity is appropriate.

[Edited on 12-7-2005 by biblelighthouse]

 

[Contra_Mundum]

The PCUSA CCM is another in a long line of half-hearted attempts at combatting the faithless in that church. They are the dwindling "mushy middle" that way back opted for "peace" by getting rid of Machen and his followers. That eliminated the head or core of the theologically coherent biblical wing of the church; and left the theologically coherent humanist wing in place, and in charge, of the bureaucratic apparatus of the church.

The "book of Confesions" is non-binding in character from a polity standpoint, and a simple glance at the contents shows that it is that way by design--it is an incoherent muddle of old and neo-orthodoxy, it is a "historical collection" of church positions that reflects the chuch commitment to doctrinal "evolution."

The three bullets in Joseph's excerpt show that the CCM is thoroughly reductionistic. These are not so much starting points for unity, as they are the sum total of it. This is broad evangelicalism stretched to the breaking point. Just leaving off "only" as to Jesus, the way of salvation, is telling. Such a statement is actually "inclusive" not "exclusive". Likewise the Scriptural commitment sounds good, until you realize how many people with ultimate disagreements can sign on to it.

The third commitment is the most transparently plastic. First, let me explain that I have been familiar with CCMovement for at least 8 years. This commitment has had several different incarnations. 5 years ago, before gay marriage was the latest abomination, the uniting social-cause was abortion. CCM was solidly pro-life. Now the crisis is homosex. The hatchet of abortion is about to be buried (if it isn't already) between common opponents of the "gay agenda".

This has happened too many times to count. Way back in the day it was women in office. Then it was easy divorce. Do you see what I'm getting at? Today, women preachers who have no-fault divorced will team up with pro-abortionists as "conservatives" to combat the homosex crisis. The chronicle of the clueless "right" and the ground they have surrendured in the PCUSA is written in the pages of The Presbyterian Layman. Today they have women minsters who write "conservative" editorials against gay marriage, when 60 years ago this monthly rag was opposing women in the ministry.

A few years ago I was pulpit supply in a town with 4 mainline Presbyterian churches, beside our little conservative denom. mission work. One of the 4 was CCM. They were on the radio 5-6 days a week. They had all kinds of ministries. Their facility actually made me jealous, it was such a beautiful place, still had the old "UNITED PRESBYTERIAN" (UPCNA) carved in limestone over the main entrance. They seemed alive. But though I listened constantly to their radio program, I never heard the gospel preached. Not once. I heard anti-abortion preached. I heard conservative politics and life-improvement preached. I listened to them for over 6 months and never heard the gospel. Not once. Come to thinkof it, maybe I had read that carving wrong.

Maybe it read "ICHABOD."

 

[biblelighthouse]

Pastor Buchanan,

Thank you very much for the helpful (though depressing) information.

It really does sound like the PCUSA has gone down the tubes. How very sad!!


(By the way, for those of you who have known all this about the PCUSA for years, please just keep in mind that I was not raised Presbyterian, and I hadn't started learning much of anything about Presbyterianism until the past year or so. --- So a great deal of Presbyterian stuff is very new to me.)