Have you ever experienced what Mark Driscoll experienced?

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"At age nineteen, while in college, Driscoll had a life-changing experience reading the book of Romans in the Bible and he became a Christian. Shortly thereafter, God spoke audibly to him while at a men’s retreat for a church, telling him to marry Grace (his girlfriend since age seventeen), preach the Bible, train men, and plant churches. And that’s precisely what he’s been doing ever since."

Thankfully, no.
 
No, you'd actually have to assume your conclusion (according to this approach) in order to get to 'all miraculous gifts have ceased' based upon the evidence presented in scripture.

Okay, then show me where in scripture is explicitly says the sign gifts of the apostolic church are to continue today. It's similar to the baptism debate in that there is no explicit command or forbidding of either the credo or paedo position. Instead we arrive to our position by examining the whole of scripture and understanding the purpose of baptism. When one examines the whole of scripture (and not just what the apostles are doing in the book of Acts) and understands the purpose for the gifts to the early church, then one will conclude that they have ceased, just as our confession states.

---------- Post added at 10:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 AM ----------

I'd also like to know from anyone who believes that we "hear" directly from God today outside of the scriptures, when one hears a voice, why does one assume it to be God? How does one know who it is at all? How do we know it's not our own conscience or even the devil. I ask in all seriousness because I believe this subjectivity presents a major problem.

---------- Post added at 10:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 AM ----------

Other than that, it'd be nice to not turn this into another bash Driscoll-Piper-Grudem-Anyone-Charismatic-and-Not-Presbyterian-or-Stiffly-Baptist thread. They get real old, real quick.

Thank you for this reminder brother. I agree with you here, but I think it's only fair to also say that threads/posts positing anti-confessional teachings get old just as quickly.
 
I'd also like to know from anyone who believes that we "hear" directly from God today outside of the scriptures, when one hears a voice, why does one assume it to be God? How does one know who it is at all? How do we know it's not our own conscience or even the devil. I ask in all seriousness because I believe this subjectivity presents a major problem.

Indeed the question of subjectivity does present problems in this area, and if those issues are not properly handled the resulting problems can be truly severe.

I haven't moved in charismatic circles for almost 20 years now, but while I was there I had some experience with the phenomena of strong subjective impressions and even audible voices. One of the marks that distinguishes what I call the charismaniacs on the one hand from the more biblical charismatics (such as people like Michael Green in the UK and Fee in the US together with those uncertain evangelicals such as Piper who hold that charismatic manifestations may be possible today), comes right here. The charismaniacs will not apply the biblical injunction to test the "leading" they have received against Scriptures while the more biblical group will follow the biblical injunction to do so. In practice, in the case of "hearing" an allegedly "divine" call to the ministry, this will mean testing what one think one hears against both the Scriptural requirements for the position-do I have them? and receiving confirmation by others that, yes, one does have those requirements–either fully grown or at least visibly present in embryo–to others in one's circle.
 
"I started praying to God, "God, I love Grace and I want to marry her. Should she be the girl that I should marry?" I'd never really considered God much in the equation prior to that. And God spoke to me audibly. He doesn't do that all the time. He said to marry Grace, plant churches, train men and preach the Bible. And so I called Grace and said, "Well, God said that we're supposed to get married."
(Mark Driscoll - Christian Doctrine series - Incarnation: God comes - Part 1)

I'd dump a guy if he said that to me.
 
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I was driving around the southern part of Oklahoma this week.[not far from Joshua].... On the radio one guy claimed god told Him to raise the dead.A guy collapsed at the meeting,they called 911...they were told he was dead....the man prayed and he rose up....
Right after that another guy said he was caught up to heaven in a tornado....saw the holy city, 70 foot angels, had casual conversation with them,etc.
The host never questioned a thing....just kept saying..and then what...
I do not remember any scripture being used at all....[what a surprise]
Some of these current popular men....Driscoll, Maheny, Piper,Grudem who offer these open door anecdotal accounts are not doing us an favors. The followers can and do drift to the false ideas, because they do not develop a hunger for the word of truth by and large.
 
I respectfully disagree. While there may not be an explicit verse that says, "There will no longer be special revelation or tongues or prophecy after the Apostolic age", if one understands what the purpose of these gifts were - to confirm the authority of the Apostles and to establish the church - then one can effectively conclude that these gifts are no longer in place. Also, we have the God's complete revelation to us in the canon of Scripture. The early church did not have this complete canon and therefore gifts were necessary.


No, you'd actually have to assume your conclusion (according to this approach) in order to get to 'all miraculous gifts have ceased' based upon the evidence presented in scripture.

I agree with Sonny on this one. And for the record, I'm not a charismatic.

---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------

In addition, all of the Mars Hill business (and I do mean all of it) has been dealt with a while back. Search for the thread on here. Most criticisms of Driscoll in 2008 (since that article was written in January of 09) don't apply as of late 2009, since several people (Piper, CJ, others) have pulled him to the side and counseled him. He's turned from some crude things he's said in the past (i.e. he did a much better series on the Song of Solomon and removed the old ones that were crass).

Other than that, it'd be nice to not turn this into another bash Driscoll-Piper-Grudem-Anyone-Charismatic-and-Not-Presbyterian-or-Stiffly-Baptist thread. They get real old, real quick.

Amen.
 
No, you'd actually have to assume your conclusion (according to this approach) in order to get to 'all miraculous gifts have ceased' based upon the evidence presented in scripture.

Okay, then show me where in scripture is explicitly says the sign gifts of the apostolic church are to continue today.

Wrong approach. What you've done is ask for scripture to be conformed to what YOU want it to say in order for a particular position to be true rather than taking what scripture says about a topic in total and then shaping your beliefs around it.

There is no direct or indirect passages of scripture that state that ANY of the gifts have ceased. There is only inference regarding the cessation of any of the gifts. The question is: is your inference biblical ?

It's similar to the baptism debate in that there is no explicit command or forbidding of either the credo or paedo position.

I disagree here too. I think 1 Cor. 7's 'children being unholy, but now they are clean' and Matthew 28's 'make disciples of all nations, baptizing them' directly and explicitly teach and infer covenant infant baptism. What else are you going to raise your child as other than a disciple ? Baptize disciples. Plain and simple.
 
"I started praying to God, "God, I love Grace and I want to marry her. Should she be the girl that I should marry?" I'd never really considered God much in the equation prior to that. And God spoke to me audibly. He doesn't do that all the time. He said to marry Grace, plant churches, train men and preach the Bible. And so I called Grace and said, "Well, God said that we're supposed to get married."
(Mark Driscoll - Christian Doctrine series - Incarnation: God comes - Part 1)

I'd dump a guy if he said that to me.

:up: Yeah, I knew a guy who told a girl this and she said "Well, he didn't tell me," and he ended up marrying someone else. There is nothing to be gained from saying this. Even supposing it were true, telling her just puts pressure on her not to properly "vet" him because she's apparently called by God to marry him.
 
"At age nineteen, while in college, Driscoll had a life-changing experience reading the book of Romans in the Bible and he became a Christian. Shortly thereafter, God spoke audibly to him while at a men’s retreat for a church, telling him to marry Grace (his girlfriend since age seventeen), preach the Bible, train men, and plant churches. And that’s precisely what he’s been doing ever since."

That's never happened to me, but I believe him because God has indeed blessed his ministry and he has been faithful to the scriptures.
 
did you read the part that came after "and"

Clearly Mark Driscoll is more theologically sound than Osteen, although based on some of the things I have read on this thread he is also not completely orthodox. Regardless, my argument was with your premise that having a large and successful ministry neccesarily means that God has "blessed" you. You might argue back that the blessing only comes with being faithful to the scriptures, but there are plently of faithful, godly pastors out there with congregations of less than 100 people. Is God not blessing them?
 
did you read the part that came after "and"

Clearly Mark Driscoll is more theologically sound than Osteen, although based on some of the things I have read on this thread he is also not completely orthodox. Regardless, my argument was with your premise that having a large and successful ministry neccesarily means that God has "blessed" you. You might argue back that the blessing only comes with being faithful to the scriptures, but there are plently of faithful, godly pastors out there with congregations of less than 100 people. Is God not blessing them?

By blessing his ministry, I mean that God is using Mark Driscoll to lead people to Christ.
 
I just take this kind of talk as charismatic blather, the folks in the pews love to hear it and hoot and holler.

Never thought for a second he might be serious.
 
By blessing his ministry, I mean that God is using Mark Driscoll to lead people to Christ.

To be honest, I have no problem with his theology. I have heard him speak and he is generally very sound doctrinally speaking. My problem has more to do with his methodology of embracing the world and its culture rather than calling Christians to be above culture. You mention him bringing people to Christ, but as John Macarthur said, "What you win them with is what you win them to." Are the people in his church really listening to him? Or are they just there for the free coffee and the hip music and dress? I sincerely hope that the answer is the former. As it says in James 4:4"Adulterers and adultresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is emnity with God?"
 
I have never heard Mark speak or preach without him bringing forward Christ and Him crucified or the need to repent and trust.

I don't get his church, his overall methods, his demeanour, but he's on our side of the volleyball net.
 
By blessing his ministry, I mean that God is using Mark Driscoll to lead people to Christ.

To be honest, I have no problem with his theology. I have heard him speak and he is generally very sound doctrinally speaking. My problem has more to do with his methodology of embracing the world and its culture rather than calling Christians to be above culture. You mention him bringing people to Christ, but as John Macarthur said, "What you win them with is what you win them to." Are the people in his church really listening to him? Or are they just there for the free coffee and the hip music and dress? I sincerely hope that the answer is the former. As it says in James 4:4"Adulterers and adultresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is emnity with God?"

Them being exposed to this is far better than being exposed to whatever they would be exposed to if they weren't in his building: YouTube - We Don't Need Religion, We Need Jesus

I hope they hear. That's up to God though.
 
Thank you for your disagreement. Your post was one to further my thoughts.

I am highly uneducated on this subject. By any chance do you have a good laymen (reformed) book recommendation for this subject?

I found this book helpfull

Charismatics and the Word of God: A Biblical and Historical Perspective on the Charismatic Movement (by Victor Budgen)
 
Would anyone say God has led you do to something? That is in some way a form of God "speaking" through circumstances, etc.

I don't necessarily believe God still "speaks" because of the sufficiency of the Word.

Has God ever spoken audibly to me? No. He's "spoken" much louder than that :cool:
 
Here is a similar instances of a directed command from God cited by RC Sproul

"I didn’t hear any voices, but an idea went sharply through my head. I found out later that the words were from Scripture which I had never read. “Fear not, for I am with you.” As soon as those went through my head, I was enveloped with a sense of total calm. The next thought that went through my head was “Go throughout the world and preach the Gospel to every living creature.” The next thought was “Take Vesta [R.C.’s future wife] with you. “ I decided at that moment to be a minister even though I wasn’t a believer. I didn’t become a Christian until my first year in college."
 
back when I was a hard-core Pentecostal, I thought that I heard God speak to me on a few occasions. Turns out, it was just me thinking up things in my head. I have since repented for ascribing those wayward thoughts to our Father and I now am completely content knowing God speaks to me through the Scriptures.

+10
Pentecostalism can be very misleading. There is a lot of emphasis on the "experiential" side, and that something might be wrong with you if God is not audibly speaking to you about things. To be frank, it flirts with putting emotions and feelings equal to, or greater than, the Holy Scriptures.

And the sad thing is that it's not just in pentecostalism. I'm seeing things like this in other denominations as well. Beth Moore (a Southern Baptist teacher with questionable presentations) implies that she has had many direct revelations from God, and in light of her mishandling of the scriptures in some of her lessons, that's very troubling.

To be frank, whenever somebody says "God told me.." or says anything else along those lines, I start to cringe. My first urge is to reply, "Are you sure that what you've heard is in line with the whole of Scripture?"
 
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