He won't play ball on Sunday

Discussion in 'The Law of God' started by Blueridge Believer, Dec 26, 2009.

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  1. Blueridge Believer

    Blueridge Believer Puritan Board Professor

    Last edited: Dec 26, 2009
  2. Laura

    Laura Puritan Board Junior

    By the thread title I thought you were talking about Chariots of Fire. This is even better. Not to mention the edifying comment posted in response to the first inane one. Thanks for making my morning. :)
  3. Backwoods Presbyterian

    Backwoods Presbyterian Puritanboard Amanuensis

    Beautiful story. Reminds me of the Girl's soccer team from the Isle of Lewis that welcomely gave up an opportunity to play for the Scotland title instead of play on the Lord's Day.
  4. Presbyterian Deacon

    Presbyterian Deacon Puritan Board Graduate

  5. Mushroom

    Mushroom Puritan Board Doctor

    Well-said, brother!
  6. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Professor

    I admire him for his stance....now in stating this I hope he and we understand that this can be a matter of Christian liberty. What I have noticed is that many would frown on me if I played in the NFL.

    If you know what I mean Vern?
  7. kvanlaan

    kvanlaan Puritan Board Doctor

    I like that guy. A lot. And the girl's team from the Isle of Lewis - that's beautiful.
  8. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Professor

    Curious, if you had to work many Sunday's as I do, would it be OK for me to rest on Monday or Saturday?
  9. Claudiu

    Claudiu Puritan Board Junior

    :detective: I've had this discussion with others before :stirpot:

    -----Added 12/26/2009 at 04:04:23 EST-----

    Paragraph 7. As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he has particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him,28 which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week, which is called the Lord's Day:29 and is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished.
    28 Exod. 20:8
    29 1 Cor. 16:1,2; Acts 20:7; Rev. 1:10

    Paragraph 8. The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe a holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations,30 but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.31
    30 Isa. 58:13; Neh. 13:15-22
    31 Matt. 12:1-13
  10. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Professor

    I have not, but I do not want to disrespect the board if this is an issue that is an essential to its format. I just don't know.
  11. Backwoods Presbyterian

    Backwoods Presbyterian Puritanboard Amanuensis

    What do the Confessions teach?

    (..and yes I know some presbyteries allow men to to take an exception, which they should not. :2cents:)
  12. jfschultz

    jfschultz Puritan Board Junior

    This is straight from the 2000 version of the SBC Baptist Faith and Message and not the London Confession of Faith.
  13. Zenas

    Zenas Snow Miser

    I predict that this will turn into either the last Sabbath debate of 2009, or carry-over into the first Sabbath debate of 2010.

    It ain't the first and I'd bet money it won't be the last. :p
  14. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Will he play ball with his son for enjoyment after Sabbath services? That's MY question.

    Good quote, now let's pray that he does not fall, like so many "celebrity Christians" do, or dive into the tacky, like thanking God for good performances during a silly game (Football players somehow thank that scoring a touchdown is indicative of the pleasure of God it seems).
  15. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Professor

    Do you watch NFL games on Sunday? Or any NFL games period? Now I am just using this as an example because I am sure we could find something you do on Sunday that could be objectionable to someone who has more scruples than you on this matter.

    One again I have no problem with the boy not playing on Sunday what I object to is people who believe that those that do are committing sin.

    -----Added 12/27/2009 at 09:24:51 EST-----

    I could see where this could lead into a heated discussion...been there done that with many SDA's and I would rather not go much further.

    Just curious how did the the below verse get interpreted to defend either position? I have a feeling it must of come up.

    "16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--

    17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

    -----Added 12/27/2009 at 09:37:15 EST-----

    No doubt. But make no mistake I am not a SB. I admit I don't conform to every jot or tittle of the LCoF.
  16. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Professor

    Concerning 1 and 2. I suggest you stop supporting the NFL entirely in that they promote a breaking of the sabbath by playing on Sunday thus "encouraging others to work" as the soccer player said.

    Concerning 3. I enjoyed the tome of your post for though no doubt we disagree with how we are to observe The Lord's Day for I agree it is still 1 of the 10. I am sorry you think I trampled on this day because I tried to be clear by stating that the liberty we have in Christ does allow us some differences in this matter in how we practice such. Which no doubt we both fail as you pointed out in your post. So in deference to the rules of this board I will bow out now in this discussion.

    Though I will bow out I would like to hear what you think the below means. :)

    Romans 14 5-6

    5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

    6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
  17. Backwoods Presbyterian

    Backwoods Presbyterian Puritanboard Amanuensis

    How soon do we get to the old canard of Sabbatarians not being allowed to use electricity on the Lord's Day? That one is always my favorite.
  18. Herald

    Herald Administrator Staff Member


    The same confession that you and I hold to is perfectly clear regarding the observance of the Lord's Day:

    The Christian Sabbath, also called the Lord's Day, is not in debate among confessional Baptists or Presbyterians. It can only be observed on one day; that day being Sunday, the first day of the week.

    The Christian Sabbath is not meant to bind the conscience of men. Once we start a list of do's and don'ts we have confused the Sabbath's purpose. The Sabbath should be prepared for and enjoyed with delight. There is no other event during the week that should occupy our thoughts more, bring as much joy, and satisfy our needs more than to worship God and fellowship with the saints. One may argue that to anticipate the gathering of the saints each week as less than the pinnacle of our Christian walk, is to have a dim view of God, and of our redemption.

    Tis true that even confessional adherents disagree on Sabbath observance. We should not use our Sabbath view as a reason to cause division among us, but the nature of the day will cause sufficient division itself; what with those who hold to a confessional view of the Day centering their mind and activities around the Lord, and those who do not feel bound to the confession on this matter pursuing thoughts and action in keeping with another conviction. There should be charity towards all, but the burden of proof on reinterpreting the Lord's Day rests with the believer who departs from the confession.

    As to your question regarding Romans 14:5, 6; let me point to the fact that this passage is not negating the command to observe the Lord's Day. Those things that are clearly commanded in scripture are not open for interpretation. Passage such as the one cited seem to provide a ready proof text for those who would like to re-interpret their spiritual obligations. Paul is simply saying that if a brother happens to enjoy His liberties in Christ, he is free to do so with a clear conscience. Enjoying our Christian liberties never is an excuse to violate a command or the clear teaching of scripture.
  19. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Professor

    I am not saying I am for stopping my observance of The Lord's Day. I was trying to point out the Liberty we have as Christians to observe it as best we can and not use this commandment to put on a heavy load that Our Lord has lifted from us. Maybe I am over reacting from what I view as a legalistic view being expressed here...though I am coming to an understanding why many here believe they way they do in this and other areas. I guess I am "lucky" my job involves "works of mercy" as that I work in a hospital.

    So should I have to stop watching the NFL? I ask this because I doubt the church we are visiting (PCA) would go as far as asking us to do such.

    PS. I have amended my profile.
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2009
  20. Wayne

    Wayne Tempus faciendi, Domine.

  21. Herald

    Herald Administrator Staff Member

    Folks, allow me to amend a statement I made regarding do's and don'ts about keeping the Christian Sabbath. There are things that we should do and not do. I was not seeking to minimize those areas. My response to Earl was with the intent to get at the proper heart attitude about the Sabbath. When the Sabbath is our delight; better yet, when God is our delight, His day will be a joy. We will not, or should not, find ourselves fighting about what we should and should not do. Our hearts and minds will be open to instruction from the Word of God on how best to honor the day.
  22. jfschultz

    jfschultz Puritan Board Junior

    This thread will probably fade away in time for the annual stupid er super bowl debate thread.
  23. Claudiu

    Claudiu Puritan Board Junior

    Anyone feel free to correct me where I'm wrong but this is my understanding:
    First of all, the text by text analysis of the issue could be a long one, but for the sake of argument I will just add my :2cents:.
    As far as the Romans passage goes, the book of Romans was written at a time the church (which included Jews and Gentiles) was still in its infancy. The problem Paul is trying to address here is converted Jews and converted Gentiles coming together in one body, the church. The Jews brought with them some of their traditions, such as the dietary laws (v. 3) and the "day above day" issue (v. 5). This clearly reflects some of the tension that occurred in the early church. What Paul is targeting are the converted Jews who brought with them the traditions of ages past. (This was because of the respect to times the Jews had-passover, pentecost, new moons, and feasts of tabernacles). They thought those days were better than other days. Thus, they were still binding old observances, which were not followed anymore in the Christian church. This passage, however, does not mention "sabbath." It speaks only of "days," and as pointed out, these days were what the Jews thought were more important than others (such as festivals or new moons). With all this, we see that this passage does not even refer to the sabbath but rather other days that the Jews believed were "above" others, which was not applicable anymore.
  24. Semper Fidelis

    Semper Fidelis 2 Timothy 2:24-25 Staff Member

    Here is what I wrote to some Brothers in the Lord on the subject of the 4th Commandment who were struggling with the issue of whether or not the WCF is "legalistic" on the issue:

  25. ColdSilverMoon

    ColdSilverMoon Puritan Board Senior

    Actually it´s a fairly good point - where exactly do you draw the line as to what is necessary and what is not? I don´t agree with Earl that the Sabbath is a matter of ¨Christian Liberty,¨but I also believe there is a big gray area in terms of what is acceptable necessary work, what is ordinary recreation, etc. When it comes down to it there isn´t much difference between watching the NFL, eating out at a restaurant, and using electricity - both are supporting others´work that isn´t truly necessary on the Lord´s Day.

    I think Rich and Bill are pretty much right on when they note that observing the Sabbath is more a matter of a desire to honor God and obey His Law than anything else. If our hearts are right on the matter then appropriate actions will naturally follow...
  26. Backwoods Presbyterian

    Backwoods Presbyterian Puritanboard Amanuensis

    How is electricity not a necessity on the Lord's Day? Do you then support Hospitals using generators on the Lord's Day, shutting down all manufacturing facilities that would take the rest of the week to "warm up"? Electricity is a work of necessity.

    A person can reasonably go a day without eating, a person in your hospital hooked up to machines cannot reasonably go a day without electricity.
  27. Semper Fidelis

    Semper Fidelis 2 Timothy 2:24-25 Staff Member

    I'm not sure that's exactly what I said Mason. I don't think we can remove matters of the heart from obedience but how I "experience" the Law is not what is normative. One of the problems I have with perspectivalism is the idea that how I agree with or enjoy the Law is just as important with what the Law actually teaches.

    What I was trying to drive at is that I'm still very much sinful and my conscience needs a lot of training. I don't always keep the Law as I ought but realize I am saved by grace. I don't therefore sin all the more so that grace may abound but I pray for a sanctified heart so that I'm not so prone to love my own flesh and to love more the things of God.

    My Pastor made a good point recently in a discussion on the 4th Commandment where we'll play "line games" with the Sabbath in ways that we would never abide for other Commandments. We ought to ask ourselves if we could stomach having a discussion about what line am I permitted to cross before I commit adultery as an example. Maybe I just look at lingerie ads. Is that OK? You see what I'm saying? Nobody ever accuses us of "legalism" if we decide that turning our heads from a Victoria Secret's commercial is a way of honoring the 7th Commandment.

    I think the legalism charge more naturally sticks in our carnal way of thinking because we don't really think of the 4th Commandment as serious as Sex, Drugs, and Rock and Roll.

    I'm not suggesting that we limit our pursuit of the Law to a checklist nor am I suggesting that the heart is not unimportant but I think we need to be pursuing righteousness in order to get a heart for it. It's easy for me to not watch football on Sunday because I could care less about it. I don't yet love the Sabbath as I ought but it is a pursuit by God's grace just as every other battle with indwelling Sin is a pursuit.

    What I'm trying to challenge is the notion that people have that their heart is already in the right place and that the Law has no training function left for them. Every practical way of holiness on the Sabbath is, by definition, "legalism" for some because their heart tells them that they are honoring the Sabbath.

    The heart is not normative. God's Law is. Our hearts need to be trained and I am merely suggesting that many do not desire to have trained hearts and I am often the chief of Sinners in that regard.
  28. Semper Fidelis

    Semper Fidelis 2 Timothy 2:24-25 Staff Member

    Lane Keister? That guy is a rocket scientist. He talks about flippy Bibles.
  29. Marrow Man

    Marrow Man Drunk with Powder

    An excellent point. Too often I've heard the complaint lodged at the statements on the 4th commandment in the WLC as being "too strict." But are not the statements on the other 9 commandments just as strict? Perhaps the applications of the 4th commandment in modern society are more difficult than some of the others in some ways. But perhaps it is also the selfish nature of our hearts (putting ourselves first and forgetting to worship God, seeking to be entertained and served by others, etc.) that needs to die all the more, and the commandment strikes directly at that.
  30. Osage Bluestem

    Osage Bluestem Puritan Board Junior

    Aren't we allowed to play games on Sunday because technically games are leisure activity and are not a real job? We only pay pro players because we want to watch them play because they're good at it. It's not like they're working.

    I think sports are allowed on Sunday.
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