Gwallard
Puritan Board Freshman
Previous thread on the same topic:
I couldn't find a definite answer in that thread, and there may not be one without great mystery, but I thought I would try. A friend of mine and I were talking about this recently, and we came up with a few different answers.
The "Problem": Coming from Hebrews 9:23, why do the heavenly things need purifying, when we often think of the heavenly things as already pure?
Elaboration: Hebrews 9:23 says "Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves [to be purified] with better sacrifices than these." (brackets are my addition). Undeniably, the heavenly tabernacle was purified with the blood of Christ. The earthly tabernacle was the dwelling place of God with man and a copy of the heavenly tabernacle which Moses saw on Mt. Sinai, and it is easily understood why the earthly tabernacle needed purification - it was defiled by the sin of the people. This is the purpose of the sin offering of Leviticus 4 and the day of atonement, plus part of all the other rites of the Israelite system - to set apart Israel and the tabernacle from the sinful world. We don't usually think
But when we think of "heaven and earth" being created, we usually think of it either 1) heaven (the sky and space) and earth (the world), or 2) heaven (the invisible realm/throne room of God) and earth (the visible realm, with space, sky, and world). I take it as the second option, because it seems to agree with 2 Chron 6:18 "“But will God indeed dwell with man on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, how much less this house that I have built!" and many other texts of Scripture.
So, Old Testament Biblical Cosmology seems to think that there is some type of invisible heavenly realm where God is seated in his throne-room. It is here that Satan comes to accuse the people of God (Job 1,2; Zech 3), and where Isaiah saw his life-changing vision (Isaiah 6). And then there is the visible heavens and earth, where we live. In the Old Testament, it seems like Sheol was like a common realm, where all the dead went, but now that Christ has come, believers who die in the New Testament age go directly to be with Christ, and unbelievers must be in either a separate sphere of the invisible realm, or in the same realm in some level of torment (but not Hell). But Hebrews would indicate that Christ is in the heavenly realms, where the true tabernacle was seen on the mountain. I've always considered this heavenly realm to be undefiled, especially the heavenly tabernacle to be undefiled, but Hebrews 9:23 seems to think differently?
Maybe the purification of the heavenly tabernacle was...
1) the casting out of Satan (and his demons?), who fell like lightening from his accusing seat at the throne room. (see Eph 2:2 with Eph 6:12)
2) the casting out or separating of the souls destined to Hell from those destined for the New Heavens and New Earth
3) the making of the heavenly tabernacle into a holy thing, rather than a "common" thing.
4) the tabernacle, made of living stones of the people of God, was purified by Christ when he entered heaven.
#1 feels likely, but Eph 6:12 doesn't seem to really agree - Satan somehow seems to be in the heavenly places still.
#2 Could be true, and it might give a good explanation of 1 Peter 3:18ff, but it feels speculative.
#3 This one is confusing to me, because how could the heavenly tabernacle be common? I suppose God was not yet dwelling in it?
#4 This seems to say that the heavenly tabernacle was always thought of in terms of the church and it's purification. Problems of time ("the temple is not yet completely built, because not everyone has been saved yet; how could Jesus have purified the temple once in Heb 9:23, when it was not finished?") are not problems for God, although Christ is certainly physically in that realm, so there must be a time element. Still, I think this could be true, but I don't much know how to even talk about it or explain it.
Other questions:
The interaction between the heavenly places and earth seem to be a lot more fluid than I realized before. Satan (heavenly) influenced Adam and Eve (earthly) in the beginning, and I've always considered the heaven-to-earth interaction to be more or less fluid. But #2 and #4 are making me wonder how much influence the earthly has on the heavenly: if a living stone on earth sins, was it to the defilement of the heavenly tabernacle that Jesus needed to purify? Obviously, God cannot be defiled or corrupted, but maybe the realm around him? If so, would that explain the covering of the angels eyes and feet with their wings?
I don't know, y'all, just an interesting conversation about a verse I've never considered before. Thoughts?
Hebrews 9:23
In what sense are the heavenly things cleansed or purified? The contrast in the context is the earthly tabernacle and heaven itself. In what sense can heaven require purification or cleansing?
www.puritanboard.com
I couldn't find a definite answer in that thread, and there may not be one without great mystery, but I thought I would try. A friend of mine and I were talking about this recently, and we came up with a few different answers.
The "Problem": Coming from Hebrews 9:23, why do the heavenly things need purifying, when we often think of the heavenly things as already pure?
Elaboration: Hebrews 9:23 says "Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves [to be purified] with better sacrifices than these." (brackets are my addition). Undeniably, the heavenly tabernacle was purified with the blood of Christ. The earthly tabernacle was the dwelling place of God with man and a copy of the heavenly tabernacle which Moses saw on Mt. Sinai, and it is easily understood why the earthly tabernacle needed purification - it was defiled by the sin of the people. This is the purpose of the sin offering of Leviticus 4 and the day of atonement, plus part of all the other rites of the Israelite system - to set apart Israel and the tabernacle from the sinful world. We don't usually think
But when we think of "heaven and earth" being created, we usually think of it either 1) heaven (the sky and space) and earth (the world), or 2) heaven (the invisible realm/throne room of God) and earth (the visible realm, with space, sky, and world). I take it as the second option, because it seems to agree with 2 Chron 6:18 "“But will God indeed dwell with man on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, how much less this house that I have built!" and many other texts of Scripture.
So, Old Testament Biblical Cosmology seems to think that there is some type of invisible heavenly realm where God is seated in his throne-room. It is here that Satan comes to accuse the people of God (Job 1,2; Zech 3), and where Isaiah saw his life-changing vision (Isaiah 6). And then there is the visible heavens and earth, where we live. In the Old Testament, it seems like Sheol was like a common realm, where all the dead went, but now that Christ has come, believers who die in the New Testament age go directly to be with Christ, and unbelievers must be in either a separate sphere of the invisible realm, or in the same realm in some level of torment (but not Hell). But Hebrews would indicate that Christ is in the heavenly realms, where the true tabernacle was seen on the mountain. I've always considered this heavenly realm to be undefiled, especially the heavenly tabernacle to be undefiled, but Hebrews 9:23 seems to think differently?
Maybe the purification of the heavenly tabernacle was...
1) the casting out of Satan (and his demons?), who fell like lightening from his accusing seat at the throne room. (see Eph 2:2 with Eph 6:12)
2) the casting out or separating of the souls destined to Hell from those destined for the New Heavens and New Earth
3) the making of the heavenly tabernacle into a holy thing, rather than a "common" thing.
4) the tabernacle, made of living stones of the people of God, was purified by Christ when he entered heaven.
#1 feels likely, but Eph 6:12 doesn't seem to really agree - Satan somehow seems to be in the heavenly places still.
#2 Could be true, and it might give a good explanation of 1 Peter 3:18ff, but it feels speculative.
#3 This one is confusing to me, because how could the heavenly tabernacle be common? I suppose God was not yet dwelling in it?
#4 This seems to say that the heavenly tabernacle was always thought of in terms of the church and it's purification. Problems of time ("the temple is not yet completely built, because not everyone has been saved yet; how could Jesus have purified the temple once in Heb 9:23, when it was not finished?") are not problems for God, although Christ is certainly physically in that realm, so there must be a time element. Still, I think this could be true, but I don't much know how to even talk about it or explain it.
Other questions:
The interaction between the heavenly places and earth seem to be a lot more fluid than I realized before. Satan (heavenly) influenced Adam and Eve (earthly) in the beginning, and I've always considered the heaven-to-earth interaction to be more or less fluid. But #2 and #4 are making me wonder how much influence the earthly has on the heavenly: if a living stone on earth sins, was it to the defilement of the heavenly tabernacle that Jesus needed to purify? Obviously, God cannot be defiled or corrupted, but maybe the realm around him? If so, would that explain the covering of the angels eyes and feet with their wings?
I don't know, y'all, just an interesting conversation about a verse I've never considered before. Thoughts?