Help on the term "Establishmentarian"
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Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Help on the term "Establishmentarian"
Have you ever thought about investing in a dictionary?
Have you ever thought about investing in a dictionary?
Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
The Establishment Principle is the doctrine that the State should recognize Christ’s authority over all things and set up the visible Church within the nation, in which “Church and State are co-ordinate powers (on an equal level, with separate jurisdictions) under the authority of the Word of God, that the State has the obligation to profess, protect and promote the true religion, civilly uphold all 10 Commandments, and that the Church, maintaining its existence and government by Divine Right, is to speak the Word of God to the State and keep it in check” (Reformed Books Online, The Establishment Principle).
How is the above @Reformed Covenanter ?
That does not really answer the second question.
How is the above @Reformed Covenanter ?
That does not really answer the second question.
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Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
It is all well and good, though, of course, you could just cite chapter 23 of the original Westminster Confession.
The PB search engine, filtered for comments by “MW.” Not that Rev Winzer is the only one with on the PB with helpful things to say on establishmentarianism but the threads I’ve read where he was involved were super helpful.
"Correct."
OPC'n
Puritan Board Doctor
It sounds like a bad idea. First, unregenerate people in government wouldn’t know one thing about how God wants things ran and it would be dangerous to have them involved in church matters. Secondly, even if you could assure that only Christians were in office, which denomination would get to put in place policies that represent the church? Thirdly, have you seen the churches lately? Churches in America have a hard time getting the truth right. I can’t imagine how badly they would mess everything up. Fourthly, this idea went badly with the Catholic Church from the get go and Israel didn’t fair too well even with her great leaders and they failed miserably with the horrible leaders and we would be the same way. It’s a bad idea to have a state religion.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I do not support an Establishmentarian view, but that's not really what they are claiming. And the statement isn't true, either. Ben Shapiro is probably unregenerate but he knows a lot about how God would want things ran. Leo Strauss was a Jewish political philosopher and he knew more about the Christian political tradition than we would in a dozen lifetimes.
I think you are confusing it with Erastianism. And anyway, in our pluralist liberal democracy the state is very much involved in the church. It's called the IRS.
That's really the only legitimate criticism of the Establishmentarian principle. The closest anyone came to getting around that problem was something like Cromwell's view. You just had to be non-Roman Catholic.
Now you are confusing it with Roman Catholicism. No one is saying the church should get involved with the state.
Genetic fallacy.
Depends on how broadly or loosely religion is defined.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
This is the classic expression of the principle. You have to refute Turretin first. My only criticism is that government money functions like plutonium. It destroys everything it touches (including the government).
https://tentsofshem.wordpress.com/2016/12/01/turretin-on-the-civil-magistrate/
https://tentsofshem.wordpress.com/2016/12/01/turretin-on-the-civil-magistrate/
Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
The State is supporting a form of Religion already in America, it is just not calling itself such. Think about how the government has supported the below observations:
1). Defining Marriage and thus defining adultery
2.) Publicly Educating Children on Creation
3.) Allowing false gods to be freely worshiped
4.) Controlling (or lack of) how we speak
5.) Murder Being a Crime (except abortion)
6.) Theft Being A crime
The list can go on. But it shows that the government is supporting a religion.
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Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
Who says they would be unregenerate. For an establishmentarian form of government to work, there would be a religious test as a requirement for holding office. Did you know that in all but one of the 13 original colonies in the US required that the officeholder be Christian? Not just generally "Christian" like all American used to consider themselves. But the real thing. Of course, some phonies would get in, but that's just as true for the Church.
EDIT: And all 13 colonies had established, government supported Churches.
Well, maybe no 12. This site claims that only 9 of the colonies had established religions
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OPC'n
Puritan Board Doctor
Having laws doesn’t equal state religion. With countries that have a state religion like Britain, the government financially supports the church and also decides what is the church’s core beliefs. They are heavily involved in the church and not for the good of it. America might have its share of garbage churches, but at least we can have some good churches without the interference of the government. I’m sure that will change soon when the government decides that it will have its hand in all churches for the “equity” of all.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
OPC'n
Puritan Board Doctor
I’m not sure your info is quite right it could be but I listened to all of Robert Godfrey’s DVDs on church history and I don’t recall him stating this actually it was quite the opposite. I’ll try and find this portion of his dvd and listen again.
Establishmentarianism is not promoting the idea of the magistrate being involved in church matters, but around them. That is, the church informs the magistrate of his duties with regard to the church, which is why he is given authority to call church councils, synods, etc. in determining the mind of God. He is not free to meddle in the church, but it is his duty to protect the church, suppress false religion (according to the rulings of aforementioned synods, councils, etc.), and enforce correction against public practice of false religion (again, as defined by the aforementioned councils, synods, etc.).
Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
My point is the government is already acting in a somewhat establishmentarian way. They are obligated to support and promote the only True Religion, regardless if they are currently failing or not.
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Let us be clear, however, our nation is establishmentarian, and the established state religion is the state, the worship of the state, preaching the all encompassing power and authority of the state, and compelling all dependence upon the state. "Freedom" of religion, which God is decidedly against -barring His manifest intervention- mostly results in the suppression of the true religion.
OPC'n
Puritan Board Doctor
Sure (maybe not pro-choice or gay marriage or civil rights or taxation or government grabbing land/mineral rights from private owners, or global warming laws......taking a deep breath nearly fainted lol etc) but it doesn’t equal state religion where the government controls the church. My point is that if you look back on history any country’s history a partnership with church and state has never ended well. Even Israel’s history.
Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
OPC'n
Puritan Board Doctor
I have to disagree. You never see the Apostles demanding the government to represent Christ and his laws or try to combine these two powers. Even Christ said to give to Cesar what belongs to Cesar and give to God what belongs to God. Our duty that I think we could all improve on is spreading the Gospel which changes hearts....changed hearts that follow God’s laws. I don’t trust any government with Christianity. Our government messes everything up I want them to keep out of my church.
OPC'n
Puritan Board Doctor
This is not establishmentarianism as I understand it.
Might not be. It just sounded this way to me with your definition that I read
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
A few things to keep in mind:
1) America is a zillion miles away from having an established church. That reality does not mean that you should not think about the doctrine, just do not get too frustrated if the Federal Government does not establish the true Reformed religion shortly after you embrace the establishment principle.
2) Establishmentarianism, as defined by the original Westminster Confession, is not Erastian in nature.
3) Even if it has not worked out well in the past or never will never work in the future, that still does not alter the duty of the state to establish the true religion if the idea of establishment is biblical.
4) As others have pointed out, we do have an established religion in most western countries today. It is called liberal lunacy.
1) America is a zillion miles away from having an established church. That reality does not mean that you should not think about the doctrine, just do not get too frustrated if the Federal Government does not establish the true Reformed religion shortly after you embrace the establishment principle.
2) Establishmentarianism, as defined by the original Westminster Confession, is not Erastian in nature.
3) Even if it has not worked out well in the past or never will never work in the future, that still does not alter the duty of the state to establish the true religion if the idea of establishment is biblical.
4) As others have pointed out, we do have an established religion in most western countries today. It is called liberal lunacy.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
Sorry, I previouskyposted this to the wrong PB member.
I may not be 100% correct. It's been a long time since I looked into this.
When you are 67 years old, a "long time" can really be a long time.
If you want to do some more homework, this site will guide you to many original documents. If I find anything better, I will post it.
Religion in the Original 13 Colonies
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
You never see women taking the Lord's Supper or babies getting baptized, either. Further, no one on this thread has ever suggested combining the two powers. No one.
Whose image is on Caesar?
No one disagrees with that.
I don't trust the govt with my tax money but I have to pay it anyway.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Turretin is very clear that the govt doesn't control the church.
And that was even God's idea.
One can make a strong argument that secular democracy in America isn't working out too well.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
All of the colonies had religious tests until soon after the Constitutional Revolution of 1789. Madison and Hamilton specifically acted to get rid of those tests, since they knew they were promoting a different covenant.
OPC'n
Puritan Board Doctor
Sorry, I previouskyposted this to the wrong PB member.
I may not be 100% correct. It's been a long time since I looked into this.
When you are 67 years old, a "long time" can really be a long time.
If you want to do some more homework, this site will guide you to many original documents. If I find anything better, I will post it.
Religion in the Original 13 Colonies
I've found Robert's DVD and so far I'm wrong lol...imagine that. He said when they first started the colonies people could only vote if they were members of the church, but problems began to arise on the matter of "are people really true members" I guess because of this. I do remember Robert saying something about it's good we don't have a state religion so I'm continuing to listen to part 4 to find this. It's actually a really great series to listen to if you're interested. Here's part one but all of the series 1-6 are there. The American church history is in part 4. https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/a-survey-of-church-history-part-1/
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RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Another problem is that people back then didn't have the denominational fractures we do today. You had Lutherans, Reformed (which could include Anglicans), and Catholics (and the East). A state church sort of made sense.
The problem is how to do that today with the different churches
The problem is how to do that today with the different churches
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
That seems an insurmountable problem. To us, that is—not to God. Remember the revival under Hezekiah in 2 Chronicles 29-30. I especially like that last verse of chapter 29, "And Hezekiah and all the people rejoiced because God had provided for the people, for the thing came about suddenly." O we of little faith.
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