Help with A.A. Hodge Quote

[Marrow Man]

In the notes from old Systematic Theology class is the following quote by A.A. Hodge (from The Atonement, p. 429). I don't have the book by Hodge, so I can't quite pin down the context. The second half of the quote is confusing. I have an idea what he means, but I wanted to get input from fellow PBers.

To all men the presumption is that Christ died for himself and for each other man until final reprobation proves the reverse. Therefore we are all under obligation to carry ourselves, and to regard and treat all other men as those for whom Christ died until the contrary is proved. ... If the non-elect believes, he will be nonetheless saved because of his non-election. If the elect does not believe and persevere to the end, he will none the more be saved because of his election.

 

[Marrow Man]

Bump

 

[py3ak]

It sounds like he's saying that it isn't election but persevering faith that directly determines an individual's salvation. Until it's conjoined with hesitancy about whether election is the cause of faith or not, it seems like an odd way of saying things, but the overall point seems acceptable. However, I'm happy to be shot down by someone more knowledgeable.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Is he speaking purely about the presumption of men and not necessarily the truth of the matter?

 

[ryanhamre]

Logically he is not implying that this is even possible, what he is stating is that yes, believe in the Lord Jesus and be saved... he's upholding Sola Fide.

Just because he states this, does not mean it is possible.

Taking the last sentence of the entire book-

If the elect does not believe and persevere to the end, he will none the more be saved because of his election.

Preceding this sentence is the following, in quoting his father-

There is not only a possibility, but an absolute certainty, that they will perish if they fall away. But this is precisely what God has promised to prevent.

It would appear to me that whoever is using the quote you originally posted is twisting the context of what is written by leaving out-

And God prevents the natural tendency of his elect to apostatize, in part at least, by means of the passages in question, warning them truly of the natural and certain effect of sin. Children ought to know that God's sovereign and eternal decrees carry the means as well as the end.

Shame on the person who did this.

Here is a greater outline for context-

These passages are just like those constant warnings which are addressed in Scripture to the elect, which are designed as means to carry out and secure that perseverance in grace which is the end of election, and therefore are in no sense inconsistent with its certainty. "If those passages are consistent with the certainty of the salvation of all the elect, then this passage is consistent with the certainty of the salvation of those for whom Christ specifically died. It was absolutely certain that no one of Paul's companions in shipwreck was, on that occasion, to lose his life, because the salvation of the whole company had been predicted and promised; and yet the apostle said that if the sailors were allowed to take away their boats, those left on board could not be saved. This appeal secured the accomplishment of the promise. So God's telling the elect that if they apostatize they shall perish prevents their apostasy. And in like manner the Bible teaching that those for whom Christ died shall perish if they violate their conscience prevents their transgressing or brings them to repentance. God's purposes embrace the means as well as the end. If the means fail, the end will fail. He secures the end by securing the means. It is just as certain that those for whom Christ died shall be saved as that the elect shall be saved. Yet in both cases the event is spoken of as conditional. There is not only a possibility, but an absolute certainty, that they will perish if they fall away. But this is precisely what God has promised to prevent."* Falling away (a) is the natural tendency of the human heart, and (b) the natural result of those sins from which the Scriptures warn us. God has left his blood-bought elect for the present mixed indistinguishably to human eye with the mass of humanity. To all men the presumption is that Christ died for himself and for each other man until final reprobation proves the reverse. Therefore we are all under obligation to carry ourselves, and to regard and treat all other men as those for whom Christ died until the contrary is proved. And God prevents the natural tendency of his elect to apostatize, in part at least, by means of the passages in question, warning them truly of the natural and certain effect of sin. Children ought to know that God's sovereign and eternal decrees carry the means as well as the end. If the non-elect believes, he will be none the less saved because of his non-election. If the elect does not believe and persevere to the end, he will none the more be saved because of his election.

Here is the original book as PDF download-

The atonement - Google Books

 

[Marrow Man]

Thanks for the input, guys. And Ryan, thanks especially for pasting the entire context. That helps a lot. I don't think there was intentional twisting going on with the quote, btw; the context of the quote (it was featured with several others) was the rationale for preaching the gospel to all men, despite the fact that only the elect will come to faith in Christ.

 

[ryanhamre]

The reason I made the accusatory "twisting" was due to the fact that in researching this quote, I found many individuals that were slandering and misrepresenting Hodge due to this quote, with the middle cut out. Here is the original quote-

To all men the presumption is that Christ died for himself and for each other man until final reprobation proves the reverse. Therefore we are all under obligation to carry ourselves, and to regard and treat all other men as those for whom Christ died until the contrary is proved. ... If the non-elect believes, he will be nonetheless saved because of his non-election. If the elect does not believe and persevere to the end, he will none the more be saved because of his election.

With this quote, it would seem to imply the following-

See... there's Hodge, he believes reprobate individuals actually can be saved, and that predestined individuals can actually make shipwreck their faith. For Hodge says your election or non-election is of no consequence but solely dependent on man who perseveres.

Now, given the quote, most people aren't going to go and actually research the context of where this quote was pulled from. Even upon first reading it, I thought to myself, "Boy, that doesn't seem very "A.A. Hodge" to me." Had the quote maintained the center of what was written, it would have been more clear, and had I read the page and a half I posted, there would be no question at all.

Since this is how, in my brief amount of research, it was represented, what other reason could there be for cutting out the middle of the original quote?

 

[Marrow Man]

Since this is how, in my brief amount of research, it was represented, what other reason could there be for cutting out the middle of the original quote?

I'm not sure; it could have been a second hand quote. Or it could have just been sloppily handled. The person who made the quote, though, is a staunch Calvinist. I agree, though, that it seems a very odd thing to leave out the middle statement, when the clarity of the quote is compromised w/o it.