WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
Did you steal my "blatant eisogesis" line?!? I agree, btw. I have dominion over my kitty cat, not Chinese food. Oh wait, that can be the same thing. Poor kitty.
Historic Premill-- I'm I the only historic premillennialist on the board?
- Thread starter Puritanhead
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RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I'm convinced of the Postmil position (being nearest to Paul's).
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
Originally posted by Draught Horse
I'm convinced of the Postmil position (being nearest to Paul's).
You believe in a literal thousand year millennium?
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Originally posted by Draught Horse
I'm convinced of the Postmil position (being nearest to Paul's).
You believe in a literal thousand year millennium?
No, I hold to something close to an amillennial interpretation of the millennium. I use postmillennial because in the past amillennials got mad at me when I tried to claim myself as one of them...
[Edited on 1--22-06 by Draught Horse]
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
Originally posted by Draught Horse
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Originally posted by Draught Horse
I'm convinced of the Postmil position (being nearest to Paul's).
You believe in a literal thousand year millennium?
No, I hold to something close to an amillennial interpretation of the millennium. I use postmillennial because in the past amillennials got mad at me when I tried to claim myself as one of them...
[Edited on 1--22-06 by Draught Horse]
I probably hold a *somewhat* similar view to you, but I dropped the Postmil name, since I don't believe in a literal millennium.
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
I can identify with sucking up their presuppositions. When I was converted, I was mainly reading authors who were dispensational (first Hunt, then MacArthur, Lutzer, etc). I kind of assumed that any other interpretation was tantamount to liberalism until I learned differently.
This is incorrect., and I believe you have made this mistake before. Infact there is a difference between amill (of any variety) and classic postmill, where as modern theonomic postmill is identical to amillennialism. The Puritans, the Covenanters (Durham, Cargill, Cameron, etc.), Jonathan Edwards et. al. up until approximately Rushdoony believed in a future millennium or latter day glory within the NT age. Rushdoony effectively promoted optimistic amillennialism, ie. that the entire NT age is the millennium. So there is no difference between (classical) amillennialism and theonomic (non-classical) postmillennialism.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I made some comment above on how amillennialists didn't like me calling myself one. Kind of corresponds to this.
tcalbrecht
Puritan Board Junior
Since historicist is generally regarded by the view that the pope/papacy is the antichrist/man of sin, and "the great whore" of Revelation is the RC church, I'm not sure how all these men can get placed in the historicist camp. Ladd maybe, but I'm not convinced of the others.
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
I'm not sure you should correlate "historicism" with historic premill-- Historicists can be postmillennial as most are. Historicism is a misnomer and shouldn't be presumptiously rolled up in "historic premillennialism." Visit Monergism.com's eschatology section on HP for an overview.
And Spurgeon said more negative things of Papacy than Ladd ever did.
[Edited on 1-22-2006 by Puritanhead]
tcalbrecht
Puritan Board Junior
Sorry, I misunderstood. I would have called them classic premils to differentiate them from the dispensational variety.
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
I where Jacob is in my eschatology for the most part.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
In short, here's my eschatology:
The Church Age is inclusive of the millennium.
I agree with amills on the timing of the kingdom (in other words, Christ's second return, the resurrection, and the final judgment will synchronize with each other).
However, I do not believe Christ will come back until ALL enemies have been made his footstool; thus, there will be a small difference between me and amillnnieals.
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
I definitely see the already, not yet here tension of the kingdom. Though, some dispensationalists loathe this and smear it as a amillennial notion. George Ladd writes of Johannine Dualism and explains this.
Theogenes
Puritan Board Junior
Ryan,
I lean in the historicist premill. direction especially after reading H.G. Guinness. See this web site for his works:
http://www.historicism.com/index.htm
And with a name like Guinness it's gotta be good!
Jim
I lean in the historicist premill. direction especially after reading H.G. Guinness. See this web site for his works:
http://www.historicism.com/index.htm
And with a name like Guinness it's gotta be good!
Jim
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Originally posted by Jim Snyder
And with a name like Guinness it's gotta be good!
Jim
Seriously, one can't argue with that.
www.guinness.com
Originally posted by Draught Horse
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Originally posted by Draught Horse
I'm convinced of the Postmil position (being nearest to Paul's).
You believe in a literal thousand year millennium?
No, I hold to something close to an amillennial interpretation of the millennium. I use postmillennial because in the past amillennials got mad at me when I tried to claim myself as one of them...
[Edited on 1--22-06 by Draught Horse]
J, who cares what it's called....as long as we're reading Paul right and agreeing with him?
(I don't recall Paul using "millennial" language, btw. He does describe the "two ages" though!)
r.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I won't debate this because I have better things to do, but I don't interpret Revelation the way you do, and with good reason. That is all I will say on the matter.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Originally posted by Robin
Originally posted by Draught Horse
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Originally posted by Draught Horse
I'm convinced of the Postmil position (being nearest to Paul's).
You believe in a literal thousand year millennium?
No, I hold to something close to an amillennial interpretation of the millennium. I use postmillennial because in the past amillennials got mad at me when I tried to claim myself as one of them...
[Edited on 1--22-06 by Draught Horse]
J, who cares what it's called....as long as we're reading Paul right and agreeing with him?
(I don't recall Paul using "millennial" language, btw. He does describe the "two ages" though!)
r.
Do you have something against the Apostle John?
Originally posted by Draught Horse
Originally posted by Robin
Originally posted by Draught Horse
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Originally posted by Draught Horse
I'm convinced of the Postmil position (being nearest to Paul's).
You believe in a literal thousand year millennium?
No, I hold to something close to an amillennial interpretation of the millennium. I use postmillennial because in the past amillennials got mad at me when I tried to claim myself as one of them...
[Edited on 1--22-06 by Draught Horse]
J, who cares what it's called....as long as we're reading Paul right and agreeing with him?
(I don't recall Paul using "millennial" language, btw. He does describe the "two ages" though!)
r.
Do you have something against the Apostle John?
Huh? Of course not....John's not a millenarian, either, btw.
r.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Whatever
Anton Bruckner
Puritan Board Professor
he was more like a deceiver
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Ok, I had that one coming...
Scot
Puritan Board Sophomore
I have...
End Times Fiction - Gary Demar
He Shall Have Dominion - Gentry
A Case for Amillennialism - Kim Riddlebarger
The Last Days According to Jesus - Sproul
So far, I lean towards "A Case for Amillennialism."
Any other recommendations? I don't think I've ever read anything in defense of the historic premil position. (maybe I should make this a new thread?)
[Edited on 1-24-2006 by Scot]
End Times Fiction - Gary Demar
He Shall Have Dominion - Gentry
A Case for Amillennialism - Kim Riddlebarger
The Last Days According to Jesus - Sproul
So far, I lean towards "A Case for Amillennialism."
Any other recommendations? I don't think I've ever read anything in defense of the historic premil position. (maybe I should make this a new thread?)
[Edited on 1-24-2006 by Scot]
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Ladd has given substantial defense of historic premil. He writes well and is competent to discuss the issues. Wayen Grudem has a succint section in his systematic theolgy where he forcefully, if not adequately, presents his case for historic premil. Millard Erickson takes the same position, albeit more balanced and less annoying.
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
Originally posted by Jim Snyder
Ryan,
I lean in the historicist premill. direction especially after reading H.G. Guinness. See this web site for his works:
http://www.historicism.com/index.htm
And with a name like Guinness it's gotta be good!
Jim
I just want to add... that historicism doesn't automatically correlate with historical premillennialism. Premillennialism can fit a "historicist" or "futurist" interpretation. All of these words have the capacity to be misnomers, because they mean so many different things to different people.
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