Holy Spirits insperation outside of scripture...

[ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

In explaining the rpw to Aaron Elmore he rplied to me saying...

"I agree with you that worship should never go against the Bible.

I don't see where one would get from my comment that my views of worship come from my own imagination.  I simply stated that worship should be led by the Holy Spirit.  This may mean at times that we are led by him to create an aganeda for worship. The HS is fully capable of doing this.  The Spirit may also ask us to wait upon the Lord. I think this can involve an aspect of corporate worship that does not have a pre-set agenda.

I'm trying to figure out what you are saying.  Are you saying the "charismatic" worship is guilty of creating worship out of ones own imagination and therefore is against the will of God.  If this is so then I have to disagree with this as a set principle.  I think there are those who are guilty of worshipping out of their own ideas and imaginations but this could happen just as easy at a liturgical service that is planned out.  We are all guilty of and susceptible to the temptation of yielding to our own preferences in worship and all areas of life, rather than yielding to the Spirit of God."

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Tim, where to begin.... First, you must estalish the fact that the Spirit does not work apart from the Word. Second, the RPW is not just opposed to the imaginations of men in worship. That is not a specific enough definition, and as you see, the charasmatic response is that he doesn't think it's his imagination but the Holy Spirit. You must pin him down more specifically. The RPW commands exactly which elements are to be used in worship. What God has not commanded is strictly forbidden. If they add elements into worship which are not commanded in Scripture, then they are adding what is forbidden. The Spirit does not lead contrary to what He has written in Scripture. This will also nail him down on the charasmatic gift issues too, since the modern practice of charasmaitc gifts does not match at all the scriptural commands for those gifts, especially as taught in 1 Cor. 12 and 14. But even if you do get him to understand the difference, most likely he will fall back on the "leading" of the Spirit and claim that the Spirit tells him differently regarding those passages. It's a delicate matter, and it would probably be more fruitful to in the long run to get him to understand how properly to interpret Scripture with Scripture, before moving on to the more difficult task of confronting interpretations regarding worship practice.

 

[ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

Aaron replies with/

"Are you saying that absolutely without exception the only things we can do are those things explicitely spelled out word for word in Scripture. There are way to many things to mention that would be ruled out then. If this applies to worship it has to apply to every area of life. The Bible doesnt say that we should have discussion via this forum, therefore you are in sin and so am I. This is just utter nonsense.

Where does the Bible condemn a choir? In fact I would say the Bible fully support sorporate worship. I am really not understanding your view now."

 

[Me Died Blue]

There are two main errors I see in his reply:

1) He is ignoring the distinction between elements and circumstances of worship. The former are the basic parts of the worship service, and are summarized well by the Confession. They what are limited by that which Scripture directly commands. The circumstances are things such as which Scripture to preach on, how long to make certain parts of the service, how often to take the Supper and tithes and offerings, etc.

2) He is ignoring the biblical distinction between corporate and perpetual worship. Even a brief look at many instances in the Bible makes that distinction clear.

For more of my thoughts on those two issues and the topic as a whole, see my December 21 entry here.

 

[ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

 Praise F1552 the F1553 LORD! Praise God in His sanctuary; R4670 Praise Him in His mighty expanse. F1554 R4671 2 Praise Him for His mighty R4672 deeds; Praise Him according to His excellent greatness. R4673 3 Praise Him with trumpet R4674 sound; Praise Him with harp R4675 and lyre. 4 Praise Him with timbrel R4676 and dancing; Praise Him with stringed R4677 instruments and pipe. R4678 5 Praise Him with loud cymbals; R4679 Praise Him with resounding cymbals. 6 Let everything R4680 that has breath praise the F1555 LORD. Praise F1556 the F1555 LORD!

What about the use of psalms 150 in defense against instruments being void?

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying,

“So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence,
and will be found no more;
22 and the sound of harpists and musicians, of flute players and trumpeters,
will be heard in you no more,
and a craftsman of any craft
will be found in you no more,
and the sound of the mill
will be heard in you no more

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus
Aaron replies with/

"Are you saying that absolutely without exception the only things we can do are those things explicitely spelled out word for word in Scripture. There are way to many things to mention that would be ruled out then. If this applies to worship it has to apply to every area of life. The Bible doesnt say that we should have discussion via this forum, therefore you are in sin and so am I. This is just utter nonsense.

Where does the Bible condemn a choir? In fact I would say the Bible fully support sorporate worship. I am really not understanding your view now."

As Chris pointed out, we have the required elements, then we have the circumstances by which we order those elements. We base the circumstantial on the the command to do things in "good order" (1 Cor. 14). The circumstances help us to carry out the elements in an orderly and edifying fashion, such as a basic liturgy, a church building, pews, bibles, psalters, etc. They don't add elements to the worship (i.e. preaching, praying, singing, etc.). They only facilitate those elements. As for choirs, as long as they don't sing on their own, but aid congregational singing, I don't see a huge problem with it (though I prefer to not have them).

The real heart issue here though Tim, is who decides how God is to be worshipped. The God of the OT is the same God of the New Testament. This same loving redeeming Jesus, is Jehovah of the OT. God cares how he is worshipped. That's what the 1st and 2nd commandments are all about. That's why He went into great detail with Israel as to how to properly worship him when he instituted congregational worship. God is still zealous for His holiness and honor. He is to be worshipped only as He clearly directs us. This pattern is continued in the NT. Paul goes into great detail in Corinthians as to how to properly worship. He allows for some flexibility, but the basic principles are laid out perfectly there. My guess is, your charasmatic friend has devalued the importance of the law as a rule of life for Christian holiness. If not, then he hasn't thought out all the implications yet. God has always been worshipped the way He directs. Whenever someone violates His directions, they are punished (i.e. Cain, Aaron's sons, Uzzah, King Uzziah, the Corinthians who were sick or "asleep" for profaning the Supper, etc.) Once your freind understands that God decides how He is to be worshi-ped, and not man, then everything else will fall into place.

And to his allegations that this "applies to every area of life," that is not the case. Worship is special. That's why we call it the Regulative Principle of Worship not the regulative principle of life. We are talking specifically about the special times when God calls he people to gather from out of the world, to worship Him as a corporate people.

 

[ARStager]

If you're going to use that exegetical method, Gabriel, then we have to get rid of craftsmen, crafts, mills, etc.

 

[ARStager]

Anyone read Gore's book, _Covenental Worship_?

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by ARStager
If you're going to use that exegetical method, Gabriel, then we have to get rid of craftsmen, crafts, mills, etc.

Not really, because it is talking about within the Temple. It became a place of commerce, rather than a "house of prayer", if you recall Jesus' outburst against the people there.