Homosexuality - A different viewpoint (For me anyways)

[Matthias]

“Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them” (Romans 1:21-32)

“Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good” (Ezekiel 16:49-50).

The sins of Sodom are listed here, and we could certainly include homosexuality within the category of an “abomination” committed before God, but what came first? Romans the 1st Chapter teaches us that God gives up men and women to vile affections because of their pride, their vain imaginations and their wicked worship practices. Sodom became a den of homosexuality because of their sins of pride, idleness, abundance, greedy neglect, and haughtiness. Homosexuality was judgment. God took them away in his own time, after He had turned them over to vile affections and a reprobate mind. The problem here is that people are confusing punishment with judgment.
The punishment for Sodom’s sins was utter destruction. The judgment for their sins was that they were turned over to vile affections and to a reprobate mind which evidenced itself in their homosexuality. Homosexuality does not bring judgment, homosexuality is judgment.
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The above is an excerpt from an Article title "Romosexuality" from BiblicalAgrarianism.com I found while browsing for info on the homosexuality issue. This certainly is a view not commonly held by most "Christians" .... at least the ones I have met. I find it a welcome perspective...

I bring this up due to the discussions on homosexuality in another hot thread... thought maybe this could shine some light

Any thoughts?

 

[D. Paul]

I agree, it is an excellent view worthy of repeating. In my experience, however, the passages of scripture used have been disallowed by their "authorities":
CHRISTIANGAYS.COM: Education
Six Bible Passages
and ANYTHING by the Lord of all homosexual anti-bigotry Rembert Truluck. His site is no longer running for some reason but you can still find excepts.
Then there's Revolution Church of Jay Bakker Revolution NYC :: led by Jay Bakker
If you want "sermons" that make you pull out your hair...

Still, good post, Matthias.

 

[Barnpreacher]

“Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them” (Romans 1:21-32)

“Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good” (Ezekiel 16:49-50).

The sins of Sodom are listed here, and we could certainly include homosexuality within the category of an “abomination” committed before God, but what came first? Romans the 1st Chapter teaches us that God gives up men and women to vile affections because of their pride, their vain imaginations and their wicked worship practices. Sodom became a den of homosexuality because of their sins of pride, idleness, abundance, greedy neglect, and haughtiness. Homosexuality was judgment. God took them away in his own time, after He had turned them over to vile affections and a reprobate mind. The problem here is that people are confusing punishment with judgment.
The punishment for Sodom’s sins was utter destruction. The judgment for their sins was that they were turned over to vile affections and to a reprobate mind which evidenced itself in their homosexuality. Homosexuality does not bring judgment, homosexuality is judgment.
------------------------------------------------------------------

The above is an excerpt from an Article title "Romosexuality" from BiblicalAgrarianism.com I found while browsing for info on the homosexuality issue. This certainly is a view not commonly held by most "Christians" .... at least the ones I have met. I find it a welcome perspective...

I bring this up due to the discussions on homosexuality in another hot thread... thought maybe this could shine some light

Any thoughts?

I heard Piper teach it basically this same way as I was studying through his Romans series. I think it would be hard to argue against this exegesis. With that said, I do believe our Sovereign God can rescue people from this judgment.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Question: Since homosexuality is judgment, are you saying that these people are not redeemable? Or is the presence of homosexuality perhaps a judgment upon an entire group/nation of people without necessarily everyone being cursed with it, but rather simply by it's presence?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Question: Since homosexuality is judgment, are you saying that these people are not redeemable? Or is the presence of homosexuality perhaps a judgment upon an entire group/nation of people without necessarily everyone being cursed with it, but rather simply by it's presence?

I essentially agree with Matthias' observation and have made a point along similar lines just last week when exhorting on James:

There is a regular pattern that jumps out at you in the Old Testament. It got to be such a regular theme as I taught through the Old Testament this year that I sometimes felt like saying to the class: “Remember what we talked about last week? Here’s another Prophet that is reminding the people of the same thing.”

The pattern is this: Men abandon God in their hearts and God gives them over to idolatry. Because men become idol-worshippers they lose the knowledge of God in their hearts. Because they lose the knowledge of God then they lose the value of the men and women that are created in God’s image. Because men and women no longer have any value, they are things to be used and thrown away when they no longer serve any purpose.

Murder, disrespect, backbiting,... are all judgements in the sins that Paul lists in Romans 1. More fundamentally, the "chain" of judgment begins at men supressing the knowledge of God in unrighteousness and you can see the pattern repeated over and over in the Old Testament. Social Gospel advocates will typically focus on the behavior and try to get governments and other people to change their attitude and treatment of the downtrodden but, because folks like Jesse Jackson don't preach a real Gospel, they have no remedy to treat the root symptoms of the problem.

I'm never comfortable trying to find a one-to-one correspondence between the current situation that a nation finds itself, finding a person who is in great sin, and trying to point to God's proximate judgment upon that individual. I know folks like Pat Robertson like to blame the individual gay man for things like 9/11 or the fact that the homosexual is acting out upon the fruits of his heart. The truth of the matter is that I believe Pat Robertson is going to be hit right between the eyes at the judgment Throne of Christ along with all other men who were supposed to be ministers of the Gospel and they're going to have to give account for the fact that they did not preach a Gospel that could save such men from their sins. We all should understand that the homosexual is blind to the light so what is the excuse of men who supposedly open up the Word and should understand that their impoverished version of the Gospel is why the American Church is so anemic.

Yes, it is judgment upon an entire people group and so men and women are raised in a culture that supresses the knowledge of God in their minds and the culture is full of futile thinking and destroyed lives as a result. When I think of judgment upon a people, I don't immediately think of homosexuality. I think of young women giving their bodies away to men wantonly, becoming pregnant, murdering a helpless child, and then going in parades to celebrate the murder of their children. Oh, how horrilbe it is that mothers who are seen as nurturers in the Scriptures are murdering their own children and are taught by our society that it is something to celebrate! It breaks my heart.

Homosexuality is terrible but it is collateral to the whole mess.

We need to remember that we were all once walking according to those principles and all were subjects of wrath. But the Gospel of Jesus Christ can overcome all of that. It can transform our thinking and renew our minds. It can undo all the futile thinking that we were raised to hold most dear. It saves us to the uttermost.

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

The judgment may well be upon bad fathers, without exception every homosexual I have ever encountered had a tumultuous and poisoned relationship with their father.

He abandoned the family, ran off with another woman, sexually abused them, physically abused them, they resented him for various reasons and chose to hurt him by being homosexual, I've heard it all and the commonality without exception has been Daddy didn't love me.

Obviously I must be sensitive not to lay all instances at the fathers feet because the sin is the child's own and their rebellion could be against the father's Christianity.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

The judgment may well be upon bad fathers, without exception every homosexual I have ever encountered had a tumultuous and poisoned relationship with their father.

He abandoned the family, ran off with another woman, sexually abused them, physically abused them, they resented him for various reasons and chose to hurt him by being homosexual, I've heard it all and the commonality without exception has been Daddy didn't love me.

Obviously I must be sensitive not to lay all instances at the fathers feet because the sin is the child's own and their rebellion could be against the father's Christianity.

Very true that a proximate result of that particular sin. Nobody ever wants to highlight that kind of statistical correspondence but it is indisputable. Sonya worked at a Rape Crisis Center a few years ago. It is shocking how widespread childhood sexual abuse is. The number of homosexual women that come out of such situations is a much larger percentage than the society as a whole.

The correspondence is even more profound for men. Show me a man that is homosexual and, odds are, that man was abused as a child.

This is the terrible, terrible thing about sin. Not only do those who receive evil from others have to suffer their treatment but then they suffer the lasting effects in their own flesh by behavior that is imitated.

It's also the glory of the Gospel that it delivers from such a chain. Not easily and not immediately but surely.

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

The judgment may well be upon bad fathers, without exception every homosexual I have ever encountered had a tumultuous and poisoned relationship with their father.

He abandoned the family, ran off with another woman, sexually abused them, physically abused them, they resented him for various reasons and chose to hurt him by being homosexual, I've heard it all and the commonality without exception has been Daddy didn't love me.

Obviously I must be sensitive not to lay all instances at the fathers feet because the sin is the child's own and their rebellion could be against the father's Christianity.

Very true that a proximate result of that particular sin. Nobody ever wants to highlight that kind of statistical correspondence but it is indisputable. Sonya worked at a Rape Crisis Center a few years ago. It is shocking how widespread childhood sexual abuse is. The number of homosexual women that come out of such situations is a much larger percentage than the society as a whole.

The correspondence is even more profound for men. Show me a man that is homosexual and, odds are, that man was abused as a child.

This is the terrible, terrible thing about sin. Not only do those who receive evil from others have to suffer their treatment but then they suffer the lasting effects in their own flesh by behavior that is imitated.

It's also the glory of the Gospel that it delivers from such a chain. Not easily and not immediately but surely.

Psychological abuse and emotional detachment as well, not necessarily physical violation of them.
My former roommate was a gay Filipino, militant and blind to his irrationals, but he told me he hated his father and that his mother used to dress him up in gowns and frocks because she wanted a daughter while he was a toddler and he grew to like it, probably the attention and his father was negligent of him so he found meaning and acceptance in being feminine, somewhere along the line I guess he decided he was gay and it appears to be an unhealthy compensation by he and many others to relate to men when they have never been able to be fulfilled by proper male relationships.

 

[Matthias]

Question: Since homosexuality is judgment, are you saying that these people are not redeemable? Or is the presence of homosexuality perhaps a judgment upon an entire group/nation of people without necessarily everyone being cursed with it, but rather simply by it's presence?

I believe our Sovereign God creates vessels of honor and vessels of wrath, vessels of Glory and vessels fitted for destruction. Using the above exegesis of Romans, it would seem plausible that homosexuality is a type of ultimate reprobation for vessels of wrath. At the same time, God can save whomever he chooses according to his good pleasure... including a homosexual.

His ways are much higher than ours.... I don't claim to understand them all but I will take the side of scripture even on the tough issues

 

[turmeric]

Could someone explain the difference between judgment and punishment to me? Thanks!

 

[SolaScriptura]

... without exception every homosexual I have ever encountered had a tumultuous and poisoned relationship with their father.

He abandoned the family, ran off with another woman, sexually abused them, physically abused them, they resented him for various reasons and chose to hurt him by being homosexual, I've heard it all and the commonality without exception has been Daddy didn't love me.

This has been my experience as well.

Indeed, it seems the only place in which homosexuality exists in spite of the presence of a loving father figure is Hollywood!

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

... without exception every homosexual I have ever encountered had a tumultuous and poisoned relationship with their father.

He abandoned the family, ran off with another woman, sexually abused them, physically abused them, they resented him for various reasons and chose to hurt him by being homosexual, I've heard it all and the commonality without exception has been Daddy didn't love me.

This has been my experience as well.

Indeed, it seems the only place in which homosexuality exists in spite of the presence of a loving father figure is Hollywood!

No, I live in Hollywood, they're people too (hard to believe sometimes I realize) but they have the exact same insecurities and backgrounds, they just have a more sensational support group to tickle their ears and find distraction.

Exception being those peer pressured into sodomy thinking it will help them get ahead.

 

[SolaScriptura]

... without exception every homosexual I have ever encountered had a tumultuous and poisoned relationship with their father.

He abandoned the family, ran off with another woman, sexually abused them, physically abused them, they resented him for various reasons and chose to hurt him by being homosexual, I've heard it all and the commonality without exception has been Daddy didn't love me.

This has been my experience as well.

Indeed, it seems the only place in which homosexuality exists in spite of the presence of a loving father figure is Hollywood!

No, I live in Hollywood, they're people too (hard to believe sometimes I realize) but they have the exact same insecurities and backgrounds, they just have a more sensational support group to tickle their ears and find distraction.

Exception being those peer pressured into sodomy thinking it will help them get ahead.

Um, when I said, "Hollywood" I was using a figure of speech to refer to what we see represented on tv and on the movie screen...

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

This has been my experience as well.

Indeed, it seems the only place in which homosexuality exists in spite of the presence of a loving father figure is Hollywood!

No, I live in Hollywood, they're people too (hard to believe sometimes I realize) but they have the exact same insecurities and backgrounds, they just have a more sensational support group to tickle their ears and find distraction.

Exception being those peer pressured into sodomy thinking it will help them get ahead.

Um, when I said, "Hollywood" I was using a figure of speech to refer to what we see represented on tv and on the movie screen...

Well that's just a manifestation of people scrambling to get public approval for their life style by peddling it as trendy in pop culture and desensitizing the public into thinking it is normal.

If Hollywood is to be believed by the way they dice up demographics in shows about a quarter of the population is gay and half of us are Jewish.

 

[Amazing Grace]

[

Question: Since homosexuality is judgment, are you saying that these people are not redeemable? Or is the presence of homosexuality perhaps a judgment upon an entire group/nation of people without necessarily everyone being cursed with it, but rather simply by it's presence?

"These people" are most assuredly redeemable.

I believe our Sovereign God creates vessels of honor and vessels of wrath, vessels of Glory and vessels fitted for destruction. Using the above exegesis of Romans, it would seem plausible that homosexuality is a type of ultimate reprobation for vessels of wrath. At the same time, God can save whomever he chooses according to his good pleasure... including a homosexual.

His ways are much higher than ours.... I don't claim to understand them all but I will take the side of scripture even on the tough issues

The side of scripture according to you? I still see a microscope being put over homosexuality here when sexual morality is not mentioned much at all. I agree the Lord has to only say a thing once for it to be grand, but I still do not see homosexuality as a sign of reprobation just as drunkedness would not be.

How would the Lord reveal who the reprobate are to us fallible humans? This will create a serious error in evangelizing homosexuals. If they are reprobate, or a sign of reprobation, whatever semantics you use, then we should just shun, avoid any type of repentance. Once reprobate always reprobate.

“These six things does the Lord hate: yes, seven are an abomination unto Him:” (1) A proud look, (2) a lying tongue, (3) hands that shed innocent blood, (4) a heart that devises wicked imaginations, (5) feet that are swift in running to mischief, (6) a false witness who speaks lies, and (7) one who sows discord among brethren.

No homosexuality there. behavior is not a sign of judgment or punishment. How could it be? "Moral" believers are afflicted with much pain also.

Christ, Himself, said, in Matthew 11:20-24, when Capernaum rejected His teaching, that they were worse than the inhabitants of ancient Sodom, and, in Luke 10:1-12, that any town that did not receive the seventy-two disciples, was worse than Sodom. As far as the example in Ezekiel, he states that Sodom was not as bad as the jews..16:48 As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Matthew 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

It's obvious that gluttony is quite ok. Gossip, previously called "bearing false witness," is the super glue that holds many churches together. Pride is excused as confidence. One who sows discors is commended for wanting the truth!!!!

Homosexuality is a sin. Terrible in the eyes of God. Not the worse sin by far. It is also covered by the blood of Christ. Once we slip in reprobation, we will just stop reaching for them to repent..

 

[ReformedWretch]

Do you not think there is an extreme difference between one who may commit a homosexual act and one who lives in that life style boldly?

 

[Amazing Grace]

Do you not think there is an extreme difference between one who may commit a homosexual act and one who lives in that life style boldly?

I guess I just do not differentiate sins like this Adam. Not saying it is wrong per se'. I am just not wired to list sins in order of smallest to biggest. Christ says there is not. If I hate my brother, I commit murder. If I look upon a woman with lust, I commit adultery.


but are there not with you, even with you, sins against the Lord your God? (2 Chron:28,10b)

Adam, "But by the grace of God, there go I"

 

[Matthias]

[

Question: Since homosexuality is judgment, are you saying that these people are not redeemable? Or is the presence of homosexuality perhaps a judgment upon an entire group/nation of people without necessarily everyone being cursed with it, but rather simply by it's presence?

"These people" are most assuredly redeemable.

I believe our Sovereign God creates vessels of honor and vessels of wrath, vessels of Glory and vessels fitted for destruction. Using the above exegesis of Romans, it would seem plausible that homosexuality is a type of ultimate reprobation for vessels of wrath. At the same time, God can save whomever he chooses according to his good pleasure... including a homosexual.

His ways are much higher than ours.... I don't claim to understand them all but I will take the side of scripture even on the tough issues

The side of scripture according to you? I still see a microscope being put over homosexuality here when sexual morality is not mentioned much at all. I agree the Lord has to only say a thing once for it to be grand, but I still do not see homosexuality as a sign of reprobation just as drunkedness would not be.

..

The side of scripture according to me? No... the side of scripture according to scripture.
At some point we have to let the measuring stick be the measuring stick stop adding our opinions. I believe Romans clearly shows homosexuality to be judgment for other sins... simple as that. That being said, I will repeat what I have already said once before in this thread... God is sovereign and yes the blood of Christ is sufficient to cover homosexuality and im sure not all homos are doomed (In total agreement with comments made by you). That still does not change the fact that the bible says Homosexuality is judgment for other sins.

 

[Matthias]

Do you not think there is an extreme difference between one who may commit a homosexual act and one who lives in that life style boldly?

That is another good point... I am sure there is a difference

 

[ReformedWretch]

Do you not think there is an extreme difference between one who may commit a homosexual act and one who lives in that life style boldly?

I guess I just do not differentiate sins like this Adam. Not saying it is wrong per se'. I am just not wired to list sins in order of smallest to biggest. Christ says there is not. If I hate my brother, I commit murder. If I look upon a woman with lust, I commit adultery.


but are there not with you, even with you, sins against the Lord your God? (2 Chron:28,10b)

Adam, "But by the grace of God, there go I"

Yea, I can see that point, but I can't help but separate those who sin and know it, from those who sin and proclaim it good. I once heard a pastor say "It's one thing to fall in a mud puddle once and a while, but it's another thing altogether to jump in it and roll around." That's sort of what I'm talking about here. I've know men who "struggle" with homosexuality, meaning they know it's wrong. I can't help but think they are "different" than one who pounds his fist on the table insisting it's a perfectly good, life style choice! Even practicing homosexuals who don't make their sexual practices "define" them seem "different" than those who are proud of it to the point of wearing it like a badge of honor.

Do I think anyone is hopeless? Yes I do. Do I (or does anyone) know who these people are? Of course not! But they are out there and I suspect militant homosexuals are a large percentage of them, but if given the opportunity to witness to them, I would. I would not however invite to supper at my home nor would I go to their home. I suspect someone is going to bring up Christ dining with sinners. I am pretty sure I recall them acknowledging Him in some way. Is there a time Christ went with a sinner to eat, (or as we would call it today "hang out) when they showed zero signs of repentance or acceptance/acknowledgment of His Lordship?

I don't see many homosexuals climbing a tree to see Jesus, or pouring their most expensive cologne on His feet, or drying his feet with their hair, do you? Those who show that kind of submission to our Lord would be more than welcome. As I said, I just don't see it.

 

[Amazing Grace]

The side of scripture according to me? No... the side of scripture according to scripture.
At some point we have to let the measuring stick be the measuring stick stop adding our opinions. I believe Romans clearly shows homosexuality to be judgment for other sins... simple as that. That being said, I will repeat what I have already said once before in this thread... God is sovereign and yes the blood of Christ is sufficient to cover homosexuality and im sure not all homos are doomed (In total agreement with comments made by you). That still does not change the fact that the bible says Homosexuality is judgment for other sins.

Where again does it say homosexuality is a judgment becasue of other sins? I thought Paul was including it as one of many vices the gentile world became hardened into and actually approved of the behavior. Isnt the judgment that God "gave them up". He abandoned the society who approve of such behavior? Homosexuality being one on a list of many Paul cites; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

 

[Matthias]

You would have to go back and read my original post, and check out the article that I referenced to see the whole picture of why I take the position that I do. I simply cannot explain it as clearly as I would like, but I feel that article does an extremely good job.