Hosea 11:9

[Barnpreacher]

Need some help with Calvin's language here:

Then follows an explanation of this sentence, I will not execute the fury of my wrath: by which figurative mode of speaking he sets forth the punishment which was suitable to the sins of men. For it must ever be remembered, that God is exempt from every passion. But if no anger is to be supposed by us to be in God, what does he mean by the fury of his wrath? Even the relation between his nature and our innate or natural sins. But why does Scripture say that God is angry? Even because we imagine him to be so according to the perception of the flesh; for we do not apprehend God's indignation, except as far as our sins provoke him to anger, and kindle his vengeance against us. Then God, with regard to our perception, calls the fury of his wrath the heavy judgment, which is equal to, or meet for, our sins.

What does Calvin mean when he says God is exempt from every passion? I understand God is a Spirit, but how does this relate to God's anger against our sin when Calvin says he is exempt from every passion? Is he just talking about passion as finite creatures understand passion? I know when the Bible uses language like "the arm of the Lord" or "the hand of the Lord" it is doing so figuratively, but is that true when it refers to the anger of the Lord and the wrath of the Lord? How can it be? I think I'm missing what Calvin is trying to get across here, so some help from someone more versed in Calvin would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Notthemama1984]

I read once where Calvin was basically saying that all emotions that we attach to God are merely anthropological descriptions we give, but in reality He has no emotions.

We studied the passage when we were discussing Open Theism in Theology class.

I wish I could remember the quote's location. Sorry.

-----Added 12/13/2008 at 12:18:56 EST-----

Basically think of God in reactionary terms. Each action we do receives a reaction from God completely void of emotions. When God punishes us for sin, it is not because He is angry in how we see anger, but He simply reacts in a way that we interpret as anger.

 

[Barnpreacher]

I read once where Calvin was basically saying that all emotions that we attach to God are merely anthropological descriptions we give, but in reality He has no emotions.

We studied the passage when we were discussing Open Theism in Theology class.

I wish I could remember the quote's location. Sorry.

-----Added 12/13/2008 at 12:18:56 EST-----

Basically think of God in reactionary terms. Each action we do receives a reaction from God completely void of emotions. When God punishes us for sin, it is not because He is angry in how we see anger, but He simply reacts in a way that we interpret as anger.

Right. I get the whole MAJOR difference between the Infinite and the finite, but to say God is devoid of passions and emotions? Is he simply saying the difference between our love and God's love or our wrath and God's wrath is so immense that they can't be compared humanly speaking? Or is he really saying God has no emotions at all? Where then do the emotions of humans come from?

 

[Notthemama1984]

From what I understood, Calvin was saying that God had no emotions. God is immutable and impassive.

 

[turmeric]

Our emotions, I'm guessing, partake of our physical chemistry as well as our preceptions and ideas. We know injustice is wrong, but we also respond with fear or anger on a physiological level that God (except Jesus in His human nature) does not experience. Just a guess - it may be gnostic. Then, of course, there is the factor of our sinfulness, which adds another wrinkle.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Impassiveness is just an extension of immutability. If God cannot change, then God cannot have emotions because to be angry at one point and happy at another would mean that God changes.


I just remember that train of thought Calvin was saying.

 

[Jimmy the Greek]

Calvin is referring to what we call divine impassibility. Paul Helm's discussion (reported at this blog) is fairly helpful:
Exiled Preacher: Paul Helm on the impassibility of God

Here are a couple of quick quotes:
"God's impassibility is a quality of his aseity or divine fullness. Unlike us, God is not dependent upon anything outside himself for emotional fulfilment or satisfaction."

"Impassibility then, is not a defect in God. He is not emotionally stunted or remote. Rather he is perfectly fulfilled and satisfied in the perichoretic fellowship of the Trinity. It is out of this self-sufficient aseity that God relates to us as his creatures. He is not dependent upon us for love or emotional completion . . ." italics mine.

 

[Barnpreacher]

"Impassibility then, is not a defect in God. He is not emotionally stunted or remote. Rather he is perfectly fulfilled and satisfied in the perichoretic fellowship of the Trinity. It is out of this self-sufficient aseity that God relates to us as his creatures. He is not dependent upon us for love or emotional completion . . ." italics mine.

This was the conclusion I came to last night after going over this issue in my mind. What I put in bold of your quote was exactly what I was thinking as I laid down and went to sleep last night.

 

[py3ak]

Calvin is expressing a position that would be taken up by the Westminster Assembly (and of course was part of the whole tradition of Christian doctrine). God is a spirit, without body, parts or passions. I take Calvin to be saying that what is described as fury is the relation of God's character to sin. One thing we take away from this, as W.G.T. Shedd has pointed out, is that God's anger does not make Him unhappy: He is forever blessed. And so no human action can alter Him.

 

[TheFleshProfitethNothing]

I see that God knows all, and that being the end from the beginning. He is never surprised by anything, and so with that, and the fact that He is immutable, I can see that ANY display of emotion is for the benefit of those around Him. God is perfectly centered in His emotions and being that He can not sin and has no sin, He is always constant...any mention or show of emotion is (as already mentioned) for the benefit of the creature. It isn't that He has NO emotions, it is simply that He is perfect in His displaying of them. As Christ was when He was walking the earth...any display of emotion from Him was perfect, whether in Anger over the money changers, or the lack of faith and understanding of who He is/was at Lazerus' tomb when he wept.

It is incomprehensible to me, what perfection in thought is, but if I had perfect thoughts, any emotion I displayed would be perfect also.

I think this is what Calvin means by "passions"...strong [uncontrolled] emotions. He doesn't suffer anything, therefore emotions are never suffering to him. Many, if not all of us have had uncontrolled anger or even berevement to the point of uncontolable sobbing,,,God does not have these problems (passions).

I often go to the etymology dictionary for clarification on use of words during the time of particular writings...meanings have sooooo changed since the Reformation. Perhaps that could help you in your future readings of Calvin and the others??

 

[Rev. Todd Ruddell]

When we say that God is without passions, we mean that He is not "affected" by circumstances as we are. There are no surprises with Him, He is not "put to the worse" by our sins, etc. He has, from all eternity, known what He would do, and His divine complacency is unruffled by human history.

When God expresses Himself in terms of wrath, love, pleasure, etc. these are terms that describe what He would reveal Himself to do based on certain events that He Himself has decreed. There are times when He reveals Himself in one way to bring about a "reaction" in us, which is part of His original decree. All the while, however, He is not reacting to us, but revealing Himself anthropopassionately, working providentially to bring to pass infallibly His most Holy will.

I explain this to my children by using a physical metaphor. When I press on by arm, surface of my body at the point of pressure apparently reacts to that pressure by yielding--by moving toward the bone, etc. This is because my body is "passable". The same is true of our thoughts, emotions, etc. In other words, of the inner man. I can be "affected" in the inner man by a word, etc. But God is not so. He is impassable, not affected by anything outside Himself. As I said above, His divine complacency is unruffled by the creature.

Hope that helps.

 

[Barnpreacher]

I just want to say I am so thankful for the providence of God to move me toward a Reformed understanding of Scripture. I realize I have a long way to go in many areas, but I just want to praise His name about how the Reformed understanding of Scripture has opened my eyes to so much in the Bible.

These things (Divine impassibility) were things that I never studied and focused on as a dispensational fundamentalist. I'm not trying to run anyone down, honestly I'm not. But looking back on it now I realize I spent so much of my study time on sensationalistic things that I missed so much that I am now coming to grips with through the Reformed faith.

Praise the Lord for his Divine impassability! Praise the Lord for men like John Calvin who hammered these things out in their minds and put them on paper so that we can better understand them!