How about Colosians 2:11-12?

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Ben Zartman

Puritan Board Sophomore
I'm curious under what circumstances it would be necessary to determine whether an infant be regenerate.
In order to know whether it is appropriate to put on him/her the sign of the New Covenant.
But that is why we leave the matter of their regeneration to God, and baptize them when they can make a credible profession of faith. We deem it better to abide for some years saved though unbaptized, than baptized though unsaved. There's the divide.
 

Tom Hart

Puritan Board Senior
In order to know whether it is appropriate to put on him/her the sign of the New Covenant.
But that is why we leave the matter of their regeneration to God, and baptize them when they can make a credible profession of faith. We deem it better to abide for some years saved though unbaptized, than baptized though unsaved. There's the divide.
Infant baptism is OK so long as the infant can be proven regenerate. Got it.
 

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Col 2:11–12.


In order to know whether it is appropriate to put on him/her the sign of the New Covenant.
But that is why we leave the matter of their regeneration to God, and baptize them when they can make a credible profession of faith. We deem it better to abide for some years saved though unbaptized, than baptized though unsaved. There's the divide.
1) Where do u see Paul making mention of what is 'appropriate'? The commission tells us to make disciples and baptize. Ben, as I asked David earlier, to which he failed to interact with; do u believe that all disciples mentioned in scripture (the term), were or implies regeneration. In other words, are the terms synonymous?

2) Please Sir, show me one instance in scripture where the sign was delayed? Where we see the leadership, malingering. Just one.
 

SeanPatrickCornell

Puritan Board Sophomore
I'm curious under what circumstances it would be necessary to determine whether an infant be regenerate.
Mr. Bushey asked whether an infant could be regenerated or not. Sure, maybe.

But how would we know?

My point: It doesn't actually matter whether infants can or cannot actually be regenerated. That's a red herring to the matter at hand. Baptists don't baptize on the basis of actual regeneration. We baptize on the basis of a profession of faith.

So: Can an infant be regenerated? Possible, but since we can't know whether they are or aren't until they are old enough to profess faith, it doesn't actually matter.

Neither the Presbyterian nor the Baptist views of the proper subjects of baptism are in one whit affected by the actual regeneration (or lack thereof) of infants.
 

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
Hi Sean,
The question may come across as fodder, but given the interactions by a certain poster, it makes it an important point given the other frequent contradictions in the previous responses.

Given what u have said, I am sure u agree that discipleship and regeneration are not synonymous. The Commission doesn't tell us to baptize regenerated people, but to teach and baptize disciples. How would u define a 'disciple'?
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Hi Sean,
The question may come across as fodder, but given the interactions by a certain poster, it makes it an important point given the other frequent contradictions in the previous responses.

Given what u have said, I am sure u agree that discipleship and regeneration are not synonymous. The Commission doesn't tell us to baptize regenerated people, but to teach and baptize disciples. How would u define a 'disciple'?
Someone who has claimed to been saved by Jesus Christ.
 

SeanPatrickCornell

Puritan Board Sophomore
Hi Sean,
The question may come across as fodder, but given the interactions by a certain poster, it makes it an important point given the other frequent contradictions in the previous responses.

Given what u have said, I am sure u agree that discipleship and regeneration are not synonymous. The Commission doesn't tell us to baptize regenerated people, but to teach and baptize disciples. How would u define a 'disciple'?
"one who accepts and assists in spreading the doctrines of another"
and
" a convinced adherent of a school or individual"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disciple

And to clarify (since you muddied the Great Commission a bit), the Commission says to: 1. MAKE disciples 2. And baptize them.
 

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
"one who accepts and assists in spreading the doctrines of another"
and
" a convinced adherent of a school or individual"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disciple

And to clarify (since you muddied the Great Commission a bit), the Commission says to: 1. MAKE disciples 2. And baptize them.
Isn't making disciples, 'teaching them'?

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: KJV

I believe u bobbed and weaved a tad: Is discipleship and regeneracy, synonymous?
 

SeanPatrickCornell

Puritan Board Sophomore
Isn't making disciples, 'teaching them'?

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: KJV

I believe u bobbed and weaved a tad: Is discipleship and regeneracy, synonymous?
I am sorry, I didn't realize you were ASKING me if discipleship and regeneration were synonymous. It looked like you were making a statement. No, of course they are not synonymous.

You also asked: Isn't making disciples, 'teaching them'?

Yes, partly. You can't have disciples without teaching, but you don't just teach someone something and VOILA! they are disciples. "Discipleship" takes conscious commitment on the part of the disciple. I've been "taught" a lot of things that I don't care about and don't adhere to, and I am not a "disciple" of those people, ideas, movements, or schools of thought. But I am convinced of the rightness of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, Son of God, Second Person of the Trinity, and I am therefore happy to acknowledge that I am His disciple.
 

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
"Discipleship" takes conscious commitment on the part of the disciple.
I disagree. How could u know the conscience of another man? If a person submits to being taught, agrees to it, they are being discipled. U have no idea of their actual commitment. If a person comes to my weekly bible study this week, never been to it before, is he being discipled?

In regards to the synonym; so u agree that discipleship and regeneration are not synonymous. The commission tells us to 'make disciples and baptize them'. It says nothing of waiting till they have a confession, outward commitment or regenerated.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Isn't making disciples, 'teaching them'?

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: KJV

I believe u bobbed and weaved a tad: Is discipleship and regeneracy, synonymous?
Disciples of Jesus would be those who upheld and agreed with who Jesus was, and what He taught.
 

SeanPatrickCornell

Puritan Board Sophomore
I disagree. How could u know the conscience of another man?
"Conscious" not "conscience".

If a person submits to being taught, agrees to it, they are being discipled. U have no idea of their actual commitment.
You just said what I said but in other words. You literally made my own point for me.

1. Submits.
2. Agrees.

If a person comes to my weekly bible study this week, never been to it before, is he being discipled?
Why is he here there? Did a friend drag him along? Do you have a "celebrity Pastor" that's well known in the Christian world that this person wants to see? Is this someone who is already a Christian but is visiting your church because they are traveling out of their home location? The answer to your question depends on further facts not known to us. Just being present for some teaching does not make one a disciple.

In regards to the synonym; so u agree that discipleship and regeneration are not synonymous. The commission tells us to 'make disciples and baptize them'. It says nothing of waiting till they have a confession, outward commitment or regenerated.
A confession or "outward commitment" is definitional to being a disciple, so no, you don't quite have it right here.
 

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
A confession or "outward commitment" is definitional to being a disciple, so no, you don't quite have it right here.
So if a person comes to church routinely, never makes a confession for quite some time, seeking to be baptized and become a member, when is he considered a disciple?
 

SeanPatrickCornell

Puritan Board Sophomore
So if a person comes to church routinely, never makes a confession for quite some time, seeking to be baptized and become a member, when is he considered a disciple?
When he makes a confession and seeks to be baptized and become a member.

How could someone possibly be said to be a disciple of Jesus Christ if they won't even profess faith in Him and express desire to be a member of His church?
 

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
Yea, I don't believe every disciple in the midst of the crowd gathering around Christ fits your description. We'll just have to disagree.
 

Taylor Sexton

Puritan Board Junior
When he makes a confession and seeks to be baptized and become a member.

How could someone possibly be said to be a disciple of Jesus Christ if they won't even profess faith in Him and express desire to be a member of His church?
Is a conscious decision to be a disciple necessary to be a disciple of someone? When I was a child, I was in a sense my parents’ disciple, yet not of my own choice. I learned from them very naturally, and I do not remember making a conscious effort or decision to do so. Could not Christian discipleship happen this way, especially since the home is such an integral part of such in cases where the parents are Christians when the child is born?
 

Taylor Sexton

Puritan Board Junior
Yes, as Jesus choose Peterto himself.
So, it's possible, therefore, to be a disciple apart from public confession?

If one is water batized in order to make them disciples of Christ before they are taught about Jesus, how are they showing any real commitment?
Question begging. Your question asserts that baptism requires conscious commitment, which is the very thing being debated here.
 

Ben Zartman

Puritan Board Sophomore
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Col 2:11–12.




1) Where do u see Paul making mention of what is 'appropriate'? The commission tells us to make disciples and baptize. Ben, as I asked David earlier, to which he failed to interact with; do u believe that all disciples mentioned in scripture (the term), were or implies regeneration. In other words, are the terms synonymous?

2) Please Sir, show me one instance in scripture where the sign was delayed? Where we see the leadership, malingering. Just one.
Sorry to have delayed my response--I have a full time job and other duties. But here we go: Paul says we are risen with him though the faith of the operation of God. Being "risen with him" I take to mean "born again." Baptism is the sign of this having been done. So, clearly: I do believe that in order to be a disciple you must first be born again. Are there disciples who are not? Sure. They are false ones, and there are many of them, but that doesn't invalidate the principle. How can you learn of Him, who is meek and lowly of heart, if you are at enmity with Him? A disciple is not merely learning facts; he is learning to be like Christ, through sanctification.
I will gladly show you a case of the sign delayed when you show me a case of baptism applied to an infant.
 

Taylor Sexton

Puritan Board Junior
I will gladly show you a case of the sign delayed when you show me a case of baptism applied to an infant.
If you're asking for examples from the biblical narrative, I think it is wise to heed Bavinck when approach the baptism issue from this angle:

"We need to overcome our astonishment over the fact that the New Testament nowhere explicitly mentions infant baptism. This fact can be explained by saying that in the days of the New Testament, the baptism of adults was the rule, and the baptism of infants, if it occurred at all, was the exception. It was the period in which the Christian church had been founded and expanded by conversions from Judaism and paganism. It is precisely that transition that is clearly depicted in baptism. Adult baptism is therefore the original baptism; infant baptism is derivative; the former must not be conformed to the latter, but the latter must be conformed to the former. The validity of infant baptism does not lapse on that account, nor does it need tradition to sustain itself, as Roman Catholicism asserts. For also that which can be deduced from Scripture by legitimate inference is as binding as that which is expressly stated in it. This is how the church acts every minute of the day in the ministry of the Word, in the practice of life, in the development of its doctrine. It never stops with the letter but under the guidance of the Holy Spirit deduces from the data of Scripture the inferences and applications that make possible and foster its life and development. And this is also how it acts when it moves from adult baptism to infant baptism. Scripture indicates the general rule when baptism may and must be administered, and the church applies that rule concretely in the context of life. It does not have to say somewhere that children may be baptized. It says enough when it regards children in the same way as adults who have come to the point of professing their faith, and it never once mentions the administration of baptism to adults who were born of Christian parents."

—Herman Bavinck, Holy Spirit, Church, and New Creation, ed. John Bolt, trans. John Vriend, vol. 4, 4 vols., Reformed Dogmatics (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2008), 526.​
 

SeanPatrickCornell

Puritan Board Sophomore
Is a conscious decision to be a disciple necessary to be a disciple of someone?
It requires a commitment to the system / teachings / person that one is a disciple of.

Being a disciple is an active thing. It's not a passive thing. One has to work at being a disciple.

It's quite illuminating to read up one what "discipleship" meant in the context of 1st Century Judaism. One didn't just become a disciple because someone taught things at you.
 

RPEphesian

Puritan Board Junior
Disciples are baptized per Mt 28. Households were baptized in the NT. Households by nature include any present infants. Since there is no indication that the baptism was delayed for any on account of their inability to profess or to wait upon better proof of regeneration, ergo any present infants were disciples.

"Discipleship" is a word that will be determined by theological context in light of whether Scripture teaches exclusive professor's baptism or Household baptism. You must assume one position or the other first.
 
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