How are unequal sins not equal?

[chuckd]

Question 150: Are all transgressions of the law of God equally heinous in themselves, and in the sight of God?

Answer: All transgressions of the law of God are not equally heinous; but some sins in themselves, and by reason of several aggravations, are more heinous in the sight of God than others.

Question 151: What are those aggravations that make some sins more heinous than others?

Answer: Sins receive their aggravations, From the persons offending: if they be of riper age, greater experience or grace, eminent for profession, gifts, place, office, guides to others, and whose example is likely to be followed by others. From the parties offended: if immediately against God, his attributes, and worship; against Christ, and his grace; the Holy Spirit, his witness, and workings; against superiors, men of eminency, and such as we stand especially related and engaged unto; against any of the saints, particularly weak brethren, the souls of them, or any other, and the common good of all or many. From the nature and quality of the offense: if it be against the express letter of the law, break many commandments, contain in it many sins: if not only conceived in the heart, but breaks forth in words and actions, scandalize others, and admit of no reparation: if against means, mercies, judgments, light of nature, conviction of conscience, public or private admonition, censures of the church, civil punishments; and our prayers, purposes, promises, vows, covenants, and engagements to God or men: if done deliberately, wilfully, presumptuously, impudently, boastingly, maliciously, frequently, obstinately, with delight, continuance, or relapsing after repentance. From circumstances of time and place: if on the Lord's day, or other times of divine worship; or immediately before or after these, or other helps to prevent or remedy such miscarriages: if in public, or in the presence of others, who are thereby likely to be provoked or defiled.

Question 152: What does every sin deserve at the hands of God?

Answer: Every sin, even the least, being against the sovereignty, goodness, and holiness of God, and against his righteous law, deserves his wrath and curse, both in this life, and that which is to come; and cannot be expiated but by the blood of Christ.

Q.150: All sins are not equal.
Q.151: A sin is greater when committed against God.
Q.152: All sins are committed against God.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Don't over look the word immediately.

Q.150: All sins are not equal.
Q.151: A sin is greater when committed IMMEDIATELY against God.
Q.152: All sins are committed against God.

 

[chuckd]

Don't over look the word immediately.

Meaning things like blasphemy?

Regardless,
1. If (Q.152) all sins are committed against God, shouldn't they be equally heinous in the sight of God?
2. Doesn't the punishment fit the crime? How does every sin receive the same punishment if in the sight of God they are not the same heinousness?

 

[SRoper]

1. I don't see how that follows. The confession says sins committed immediately against God are worse. I suppose it is a fair question to ask why that is.
2. The idea that some sins are more heinous than others is best supported by the fact that some punishments will be worse than others. "But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you."

 

[DMcFadden]

Confessing that all sin is an offense against the holiness of God and even the most seemingly insignificant sin is worthy of hell is not the same as saying that all sins are equally bad.

In an episode of the Big Bang Theory, Stuart is arguing with know-it-all Sheldon. Stuart opines that one error is "worse" than another. Sheldon objects.

Stuart: I'm afraid you couldn't be more wrong.
Sheldon: More wrong?? There's no such thing as "more wrong".
Stuart: Sure there is. It's a little wrong to call a tomato a vegetable. It's very wrong to call it a suspension bridge.

"Cheating" on your diet, after promising your wife that you wouldn't is wrong; "green lighting" the holocaust of six million Jews is . . .

 

[Free Christian]

"Cheating" on your diet, after promising your wife that you wouldn't is wrong; "green lighting" the holocaust of six million Jews is . . .

Well put!

 

[Toasty]

If some sins are more worse than others, does this mean that some people are better than other people?

 

[Free Christian]

Hi Henry. As I see it we are all sinners. Romans 3 v 23, and all fall short of the glory of God. From a human standpoint I for sure see some people who are better than others, someone who does others not harm vs someone who is a murderer. But without Christ it counts for nought in the end, no matter how much better one is.

 

[chuckd]

Confessing that all sin is an offense against the holiness of God and even the most seemingly insignificant sin is worthy of hell is not the same as saying that all sins are equally bad.

In an episode of the Big Bang Theory, Stuart is arguing with know-it-all Sheldon. Stuart opines that one error is "worse" than another. Sheldon objects.

Stuart: I'm afraid you couldn't be more wrong.
Sheldon: More wrong?? There's no such thing as "more wrong".
Stuart: Sure there is. It's a little wrong to call a tomato a vegetable. It's very wrong to call it a suspension bridge.

"Cheating" on your diet, after promising your wife that you wouldn't is wrong; "green lighting" the holocaust of six million Jews is . . .

If the sin is against God, isn't the sin infinitely heinous deserving of an eternal hell? Something cannot be more infinite.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Confessing that all sin is an offense against the holiness of God and even the most seemingly insignificant sin is worthy of hell is not the same as saying that all sins are equally bad.

In an episode of the Big Bang Theory, Stuart is arguing with know-it-all Sheldon. Stuart opines that one error is "worse" than another. Sheldon objects.

Stuart: I'm afraid you couldn't be more wrong.
Sheldon: More wrong?? There's no such thing as "more wrong".
Stuart: Sure there is. It's a little wrong to call a tomato a vegetable. It's very wrong to call it a suspension bridge.

"Cheating" on your diet, after promising your wife that you wouldn't is wrong; "green lighting" the holocaust of six million Jews is . . .

If the sin is against God, isn't the sin infinitely heinous deserving of an eternal hell? Something cannot be more infinite.

The wrath of God is not eternal per se, as it was not in the case of Christ. The reason why it is eternal for us is because only God Himself can atone for a sin committed against Himself.

"If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him?" (1 Samuel 2:25)

 

[DMcFadden]

Trying to determine the hierarchy of sins is a fool's errand. ANY sin offends the holiness of God is worthy of hell.

When we speak of the differentiations in sin, as Paul clearly does in 1 Cor (6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.), other elements are coming into view. In other words, we are not using the terms "worse" univocally, but equivocally.

You hating me or murdering me may be equal in terms of your deserving eternity separated from God, but I assure that my family would greatly prefer that you commit the first rather than the second. If you disagree, please post your address, when you will be away from home, and have the courtesy to leave your backdoor open so that some of us can burgle rather covet.

 

[Rom]

Not to distract, but mathematicians recognize that some infinite sets are greater than others. For instance, there are more whole numbers than there are whole even numbers and even less prime numbers, though they are all infinite sets.

 

[chuckd]

Trying to determine the hierarchy of sins is a fool's errand. ANY sin offends the holiness of God is worthy of hell.

When we speak of the differentiations in sin, as Paul clearly does in 1 Cor (6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.), other elements are coming into view. In other words, we are not using the terms "worse" univocally, but equivocally.

You hating me or murdering me may be equal in terms of your deserving eternity separated from God, but I assure that my family would greatly prefer that you commit the first rather than the second. If you disagree, please post your address, when you will be away from home, and have the courtesy to leave your backdoor open so that some of us can burgle rather covet.

They may not be equal to you, but the Q.150 answer is "in the sight of God." And the punishment fits the crime. If all are equal in punishment, all must be equal in crime.

 

[VictorBravo]

They may not be equal to you, but the Q.150 answer is "in the sight of God." And the punishment fits the crime. If all are equal in punishment, all must be equal in crime.

But where do you get the idea that they are equal in punishment? The catechism doesn't say that. It says not all sins are equal, and it also says all sins deserve the wrath and curse of God.

But it doesn't say anything about degrees of punishment, or degrees of curse, for that matter.

By way of example, a child doesn't clean up his room as promised--he receives the wrath of Mom in the form of not playing with friends for a day.

Same child is caught stealing--he receives the wrath of Mom in the form of being grounded for a month.

Both receive wrath, but the punishments differ.

 

[chuckd]

They may not be equal to you, but the Q.150 answer is "in the sight of God." And the punishment fits the crime. If all are equal in punishment, all must be equal in crime.

But where do you get the idea that they are equal in punishment? The catechism doesn't say that. It says not all sins are equal, and it also says all sins deserve the wrath and curse of God.

But it doesn't say anything about degrees of punishment, or degrees of curse, for that matter.

By way of example, a child doesn't clean up his room as promised--he receives the wrath of Mom in the form of not playing with friends for a day.

Same child is caught stealing--he receives the wrath of Mom in the form of being grounded for a month.

Both receive wrath, but the punishments differ.

Q. 29. What are the punishments of sin in the world to come?

A. The punishments of sin in the world to come, are everlasting separation from the comfortable presence of God, and most grievous torments in soul and body, without intermission, in hell-fire forever.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Is this a question of quantitative vs. qualitative that is being imposed upon Q. 29? I am not so sure that Question 29 addresses both. Any punishment is going to be most grievous to each individual when those in Hell look upon Christ. I am not so sure that they (the punishments) will be of the same quantitatively. Thoughts?

Robert Shaw on 33.

IV. The matter to be tried. This is expressed in the most comprehensive terms: "God shall bring every world into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."—Eccl. xii. 14. All the works of the sons of men will be tried, and they shall receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil. Not only the actions of the life, but also the words of men shall be judged; for our Saviour has assured us that "for every idle word which men shall speak, they shall give an account in the day of judgment."—Matt. xii. 36. And not only the actions and words, but also the very thoughts of men shall be brought into judgment; for we are told "God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ." - Rom. ii. 16.

 

[SRoper]

Not to distract, but mathematicians recognize that some infinite sets are greater than others. For instance, there are more whole numbers than there are whole even numbers and even less prime numbers, though they are all infinite sets.

To add to the distraction, while you are right that infinite sets can be different sizes, the examples you gave are all the same size.

 

[Rom]

Not to distract, but mathematicians recognize that some infinite sets are greater than others. For instance, there are more whole numbers than there are whole even numbers and even less prime numbers, though they are all infinite sets.

To add to the distraction, while you are right that infinite sets can be different sizes, the examples you gave are all the same size.

You are absolutely right, and that is my fault for not checking up on my memory of college math courses I took a long time ago

Strange but True: Infinity Comes in Different Sizes - Scientific American

Hopefully I don't distract any further - thanks for the correction, brother!

 

[whirlingmerc]

not to nitpick even numbers, whole numbers, primes are all countabilty infinite... rational numbers uncountably infinite... and larger

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

not to nitpick even numbers, whole numbers, primes are all countabilty infinite... rational numbers uncountably infinite... and larger

It is all infinite as far as time. But does that address the issues between qualitative and quantitative? Might someone enjoy Heavenly Pleasure and Responsibility much more for Eternity than someone else?

Luk 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luk 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
Luk 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Luk 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
Luk 19:17 And he said unto him,Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
Luk 19:18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
Luk 19:19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
Luk 19:20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
Luk 19:21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
Luk 19:22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
Luk 19:23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
Luk 19:24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
Luk 19:25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

This is about the Talents and rewards of grace in heaven if I am not mistaken. I could be.

I think the Lord spoke about this a bit also through St. Paul also.

St. Paul also spoke about Christians suffering loss in 1 Corinthians 3.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[whirlingmerc]

judgment is worse for some sinners than other sinners.
equal = all are sinners, falling short, tinged with sin, not pure
not equal = some offenses are more rebellious than others, strain out gnats leaving camel tea

Matthew 10:15 Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

Parts of the law are weightier than others
How God weighs them might be surprising to some
Rewards, likewise vary

 

[Afterthought]

Is this a question of quantitative vs. qualitative that is being imposed upon Q. 29? I am not so sure that Question 29 addresses both. Any punishment is going to be most grievous to each individual when those in Hell look upon Christ. I am not so sure that they (the punishments) will be of the same quantitatively. Thoughts?

I was kind of wondering myself whether this comes down to distinguishing between duration and degree of punishment. However, I also wonder whether part of the degree of punishment is duration, since a more severe punishment lasts longer? But I suppose then we might say that duration is one of the parts of the punishment that is equal in all, even as duration of blessing is one of the parts that is the reward of all Christians.

 

[AlexanderHenderson1647]

Matt. 12:32 "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

 

[earl40]

Reprobation to hell is based on the sin of Adam, and salvation or justification is based on the work of Jesus. The amount of punishment in hell is based on the reprobates work, as is the reward in heaven is based on the works done in faith for the elect by His grace.

So far as the work of reprobate being more sinful..... "VII. Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may be things which God commands; and of good use both to themselves and others:yet, because they proceed not from an heart purified by faith; nor are done in a right manner, according to the Word; nor to a right end, the glory of God,they are therefore sinful and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God:and yet, their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing unto God."