How can I know this about the Ten Commandments?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Megan Mozart

Puritan Board Junior
Since many would say that the 10 Commandments were just covenantal stipulations between the great King and and his Kingdom, Israel, why do so many others say that they are binding on all men at all times? Why can't we look at them as we do the rest of the OT law - that they are fulfilled by Christ? How do we know that they are binding on all men even today? Can't we just take the moral principles from them as we do the rest of the law?

I am such a novice in covenant theology, the law, and any other topics this question encompasses, so you'll have to be patient with me and not leave out the basics.

I ask this because I tend towards NOT thinking that they are binding on all men. But I have not yet actually tried to search for the answer myself. I feel inadequate to figure this out myself, as it requires knowing a lot of systematic theology that I haven't yet studied.

If there is anyone on this board who thinks the 10C are just covenantal stipulations to Israel, I would like to hear from them too. :candle:

Also, if I end up disagreeing that the 10C are binding on all men, would I be considered unconfessional and unable to participate in this board?
 
Since many would say that the 10 Commandments were just covenantal stipulations between the great King and and his Kingdom, Israel, why do so many others say that they are binding on all men at all times? Why can't we look at them as we do the rest of the OT law - that they are fulfilled by Christ? How do we know that they are binding on all men even today? Can't we just take the moral principles from them as we do the rest of the law?

I am such a novice in covenant theology, the law, and any other topics this question encompasses, so you'll have to be patient with me and not leave out the basics.

I ask this because I tend towards NOT thinking that they are binding on all men. But I have not yet actually tried to search for the answer myself. I feel inadequate to figure this out myself, as it requires knowing a lot of systematic theology that I haven't yet studied.

If there is anyone on this board who thinks the 10C are just covenantal stipulations to Israel, I would like to hear from them too. :candle:

Also, if I end up disagreeing that the 10C are binding on all men, would I be considered unconfessional and unable to participate in this board?

Megan,

The 10 commandments are part of God's moral law, which are always binding on all people at all times. I'm curious though, which part of the 10 commandments do you think are circumstantial and not moral?
 
You're allowed to hold to some unconfessional beliefs and still take part in the board, though you still wouldn't be allowed to propound or defend those unconfessional beliefs on this platform. :)
 
Why can't we look at them as we do the rest of the OT law - that they are fulfilled by Christ? How do we know that they are binding on all men even today? Can't we just take the moral principles from them as we do the rest of the law?

I think that you may be using the term "OT law" in different senses. Are you referring to the sacrificial system? The dietary laws? The civil sanctions? The personal commands? The directives for holy war? Perhaps, if you can specify which portion of the law you are speaking of, we can then ask ourselves whether or not such laws were fulfilled by Christ, and if so, in what sense.

Cheers,
 
You're allowed to hold to some unconfessional beliefs and still take part in the board, though you still wouldn't be allowed to propound or defend those unconfessional beliefs on this platform. :)

I would say Megan is simply asking for scriptural justification on the issue instead of actually opposing the confessional belief enforced on this forum.
 
Well for a start the Apostle Paul, "our Apostle", says in Romans that the law was binding on all men from the time of Adam's Fall until Moses, even although it hadn't been propounded and published in the stony form of the 10C.

The 10C and any moral laws derived from them, in the ceremonies and judicials, are deemed to be special and eternal law, which was written on Adam's heart in the Garden, and is a revelation of God's character which is always binding on all men, as all men are meant to image forth God's character.

Adam and Eve "embodied" the moral law which is summarised in the 10C. Christ "embodies" the moral law which is summarised in the 10C.

The ceremonials - to the extent that they don't contain moral principles - were a picture book Gospel for the childhood Church. The judicials/civils/penals, to the extent they don't contain a general moral equity, were a necessary source of discipline and training for the childhood church.

Christ fully enforces all that is moral in Moses, and doesn't let a crumb fall to the ground, in the Sermon on the Mount. See Matthew 5:17-20. We must be very careful to dismiss anything in the Law of Moses, as not having moral relevance for us. Admiittedly there is still study and debate among Reformed scholars about some areas, but most is very clear.

The way the 10C or moral law was revealed to Israel was therefore special in a way that temporary and provisional laws were not.

E.g.

(a) It was the only law that was directly spoken by the voice of God to Israel.

(b) The original copy of it was written with the finger of God on stone, which is a material that is much more durable than vellum or papyrus.

(c) It was laid up in the Ark of the Covenant under the Mercy Seat where God's Shekinah Glory was specially revealed between the cherubim. Each year the High Priest had to make atonement by blood for the sins of the people in breaking the 10C by sprinkling blood on the mercy seat. The LORD was as it were "reminded" of the blood, rather than His law which had been broken.

In the New Covenant Christ makes some slight "changes" to the 10C by fulfilment of certain aspects.

(a) Re the introduction to the 10C, we not only have the motive for keeping the 10C that God took our Covenantal fathers out of Egypt, but also that Christ has redeemed us from sin and Satan. (John 13:34)

(b) The Day on which the Sabbath is observed moved from the Seventh to the First, although some contend that the specific day of the week isn't mentioned in the 10C

(c) In the Fifth Commandment the promise is related to the Land of Israel. In the New Testament our Land of Israel is the whole Earth. The Apostle adjusts this in Ephesians 5.

(d) We also don't have a copy of the 10C written on stone, in the Ark of the Covenant. See II Corinthians. But we do have the revelation of that in the Bible.

We who believe and our children, Jews and Gentiles, are Israel, and Christ is our greater than Moses, who originally gave His revelation of the 10C to Moses. Christ takes the 10C from Moses, makes such adjustmets as are necessary, by revelation, and hands the 10C back to us.

Nothing moral is changed by Christ, inasmuch as God cannot change, and Christ is God. Our responsibility to obey is enhanced, inasmuch as we New Covenant Israelites have a greater revelation of God's grace than the Old Covenant Israelites did.

The Two Great Commandments are a summary of the 10C, and the 10C are a summary of the whole moral law for the Christian.

See e.g. Jochem Douma's "The Ten Commandments: Manual for the Christian Life"

It is not necessary for moral law to be repeated in the NT e.g. if you want to know which relatives you are not to marry you have to go to the OT. But anyway, all the 10C are repeated in the NT, including the 4th Commandment.

Jesus repeatedly deals with the 4th Commandment, clears away Pharisaical additions and errors, and never once hints at its imminent demise. Christ in the Gospels never deals with other days in this way. Moreover, why did God the Son by His Spirit write it on stone with His finger, if it was temporary and provisional?
 
Last edited:
Megan,

Okay, you asked for basic, so sorry if this is too basic. :)

The Law is divided into three categories - moral, ceremonial, and civil (or judicial). Ceremonial laws are those that were typical of things to come, and they only ever applied to Jews, e.g. dietary laws, animal sacrifices, etc. The civil laws are commandments to Israel on how to run its government. The moral laws are laws that go to the very basic nature of right from wrong, and these were always applicable to Gentiles. Examples include the prohibition of murder, stealing, adultery, as well as some outside the 10 commandments, such as the prohibitions of witchcraft, homosexuality, and bestiality, etc. (although the punishments proscribed for these are civil law, and Reformed believers are divided as to whether the government should still enforce them).

You seem to be asking if the 10 Commandments are all ceremonial, but I know you can't mean that - Surely you agree that murder was always wrong for Gentiles as well as Jews, and still is. The non-Reformed view is not that the 10 commandments are ceremonial, but rather that one of them is ceremonial (the 4th), and the other 9 are moral. Please do not conclude that they are ALL ceremonial and start stealing my stuff! ;)
 
You're allowed to hold to some unconfessional beliefs and still take part in the board, though you still wouldn't be allowed to propound or defend those unconfessional beliefs on this platform. :)

I would say Megan is simply asking for scriptural justification on the issue instead of actually opposing the confessional belief enforced on this forum.

Of course, I recognize that. :) I was responding to the last line of her post:

Also, if I end up disagreeing that the 10C are binding on all men, would I be considered unconfessional and unable to participate in this board?

-----Added 12/28/2009 at 09:50:43 EST-----

Please do not conclude that they are ALL ceremonial and start stealing my stuff! ;)

Just in case, can I have your address? :)
 
Megan, another think to consider is that most of the commandments are explicitly restated in the New Testament, and not just in the gospels.
 
Since many would say that the 10 Commandments were just covenantal stipulations between the great King and and his Kingdom, Israel, why do so many others say that they are binding on all men at all times? Why can't we look at them as we do the rest of the OT law - that they are fulfilled by Christ? How do we know that they are binding on all men even today? Can't we just take the moral principles from them as we do the rest of the law?
Megan,

The Decalogue (10 Commandments) didn't begin with Moses at Mt. Sinai. Long before Moses was around it was wrong to murder, steal, etc., right? If the Commandments no longer apply in the NT, then shouldn't we be able to go out and murder, commit adultery, etc.? Well, no, because the Ten Commandments are still in force. These commandments are written on men's hearts. Whether they acknowledge so or not doesn't make it any less so. They were codified at Sinai, but not invented/created then. These questions you have cannot be adequately answered with a few sentences. When you have the time, you may want to listen to the following sermons from my church. I think they are a very helpful discussion on these things you've asked.
If there is anyone on this board who thinks the 10C are just covenantal stipulations to Israel, I would like to hear from them too. :candle:
Sorry, such defenses of this wouldn't be welcome here on the PB.
Also, if I end up disagreeing that the 10C are binding on all men, would I be considered unconfessional and unable to participate in this board?
Well, it would certainly be unconfessional, but more than that, it would be troubling to our hearts. It's not about the Reformed Club concept, but the belief that God's Law is perfect. Murder is always wrong for everyone. Stealing is always wrong for everyone. Etc. Anyway, maybe you could take a listen to these, and if you have any questions along the way, please feel welcome to ask:

1. The Law or the Prophets: Who Are They?
2. Distinctions in the Law: How is Law Used in Scripture?
3. Distinctions in the Law, Part 2: Ceremonial, Judicial
4. Distinctions in the Law, Part 3: The Moral Law, Part 1
5. Distinctions in the Law, Part 4: The Moral Law, Part 2 - the Moral Law Abides)
6. Uses of the Law, Part 1: Unlawful Uses - As a Means of Justification
7. Uses of the Law, Part 2: Unlawful Uses (Cont.)
8. Uses of the Law, Part 3: Lawful Uses - Who's Law Will Prevail?
9. Lawful Uses of the Law - How Do You Define Sin?
10. Preaching the Law - The Revealer of Sin
11. Uses of the Law, Part 4: Lawful Uses - The Law Binds us to Christ
12. Uses of the Law, Part 5: Lawful Uses - An Affectionate Rule of Life
13. Preaching the Law - Do You Love God's Law?
14. Introduction - The Greatest and the Least
15. Are You Least or Greatest in the Kingdom?
16. Keeping the Least Commandments
18. Keeping the Least Commandments, Part 2
19. True Biblical Greatness
20. Doing and Teaching the Least Commandments

I have to second Josh's recommendation of sermons. After I read your post I immediately thought of these sermons that he had previously recommended in another thread. I was actually going to share them myself had he not already done so. I have not finished all of them but the first 5 that he has posted are excellent. Rev Ruddell does an excellent job explaining the Law and its implications to us. He goes in-depth but it is very easy to understand. Again, I highly recommend you give them a listen. May God bless you in your studies.
 
Since many would say that the 10 Commandments were just covenantal stipulations between the great King and and his Kingdom, Israel, why do so many others say that they are binding on all men at all times? Why can't we look at them as we do the rest of the OT law - that they are fulfilled by Christ? How do we know that they are binding on all men even today? Can't we just take the moral principles from them as we do the rest of the law?
Megan,

The Decalogue (10 Commandments) didn't begin with Moses at Mt. Sinai. Long before Moses was around it was wrong to murder, steal, etc., right? If the Commandments no longer apply in the NT, then shouldn't we be able to go out and murder, commit adultery, etc.? Well, no, because the Ten Commandments are still in force. These commandments are written on men's hearts. Whether they acknowledge so or not doesn't make it any less so. They were codified at Sinai, but not invented/created then. These questions you have cannot be adequately answered with a few sentences. When you have the time, you may want to listen to the following sermons from my church. I think they are a very helpful discussion on these things you've asked.
If there is anyone on this board who thinks the 10C are just covenantal stipulations to Israel, I would like to hear from them too. :candle:
Sorry, such defenses of this wouldn't be welcome here on the PB.
Also, if I end up disagreeing that the 10C are binding on all men, would I be considered unconfessional and unable to participate in this board?
Well, it would certainly be unconfessional, but more than that, it would be troubling to our hearts. It's not about the Reformed Club concept, but the belief that God's Law is perfect. Murder is always wrong for everyone. Stealing is always wrong for everyone. Etc. Anyway, maybe you could take a listen to these, and if you have any questions along the way, please feel welcome to ask:

1. The Law or the Prophets: Who Are They?
2. Distinctions in the Law: How is Law Used in Scripture?
3. Distinctions in the Law, Part 2: Ceremonial, Judicial
4. Distinctions in the Law, Part 3: The Moral Law, Part 1
5. Distinctions in the Law, Part 4: The Moral Law, Part 2 - the Moral Law Abides)
6. Uses of the Law, Part 1: Unlawful Uses - As a Means of Justification
7. Uses of the Law, Part 2: Unlawful Uses (Cont.)
8. Uses of the Law, Part 3: Lawful Uses - Who's Law Will Prevail?
9. Lawful Uses of the Law - How Do You Define Sin?
10. Preaching the Law - The Revealer of Sin
11. Uses of the Law, Part 4: Lawful Uses - The Law Binds us to Christ
12. Uses of the Law, Part 5: Lawful Uses - An Affectionate Rule of Life
13. Preaching the Law - Do You Love God's Law?
14. Introduction - The Greatest and the Least
15. Are You Least or Greatest in the Kingdom?
16. Keeping the Least Commandments
18. Keeping the Least Commandments, Part 2
19. True Biblical Greatness
20. Doing and Teaching the Least Commandments

That's a mighty fine list of links, Josh.
 
Yes, in our church we regularly recount the Ten Commandments as a responsive reading during worship; the pastor reads the commandment as it appears in Exodus and we respond with a correlative passage from the NT.

Megan, you seem to be in a hurry to get all your ducks in a row. Be patient and take your time. Our knowledge must grow in proportion with our sanctification otherwise we will have a zeal but not according to knowledge. We are justified by the righteousness of Christ and not by the precision of our doctrine or devotion. Doctrine is important but let it grow as you walk in humble surrender to Christ.


Megan, another think to consider is that most of the commandments are explicitly restated in the New Testament, and not just in the gospels.
 
Thanks for the responses so far everyone.

Of course I don't think it's ok to lie, murder, and steal. :D tehe.

But so far I am not sure that we treat the 10C as especially different from the rest of the law. It may have been the most important law for their covenanted nation, but I'm not sure that the continuity is there for us in the new covenant. Therefore, right now I'm at the point where I can treat it like the rest of the law and extract moral principles from it where I can. Make sense?
 
Westminster Larger Catechism

Q. 98. Where is the moral law summarily comprehended?

A. The moral law is summarily comprehended in the ten commandments, which were delivered by the voice of God upon Mount Sinai, and written by him in two tables of stone;[420] and are recorded in the twentieth chapter of Exodus. The four first commandments containing our duty to God, and the other six our duty to man.[421]

Q. 99. What rules are to be observed for the right understanding of the ten commandments?

A. For the right understanding of the ten commandments, these rules are to be observed:

1. That the law is perfect, and bindeth everyone to full conformity in the whole man unto the righteousness thereof, and unto entire obedience forever; so as to require the utmost perfection of every duty, and to forbid the least degree of every sin.[422]

2. That it is spiritual, and so reacheth the understanding, will, affections, and all other powers of the soul; as well as words, works, and gestures.[423]

3. That one and the same thing, in divers respects, is required or forbidden in several commandments.[424]

4. That as, where a duty is commanded, the contrary sin is forbidden;[425] and, where a sin is forbidden, the contrary duty is commanded:[426] so, where a promise is annexed, the contrary threatening is included;[427] and, where a threatening is annexed, the contrary promise is included.[428]

5. That what God forbids, is at no time to be done;[429] what he commands, is always our duty;[430] and yet every particular duty is not to be done at all times.[431]

6. That under one sin or duty, all of the same kind are forbidden or commanded; together with all the causes, means, occasions, and appearances thereof, and provocations thereunto.[432]

7. That what is forbidden or commanded to ourselves, we are bound, according to our places to endeavour that it may be avoided or performed by others, according to the duty of their places.[433]

8. That in what is commanded to others, we are bound, according to our places and callings, to be helpful to them;[434] and to take heed of partaking with others in what is forbidden them.[435]

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God

I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[1]

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables:[2] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[3]

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[4] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[5] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[6]

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[7]

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[22]

Probably the most helpful way to understand this is to begin by studying and meditating on the Scripture proofs for each statement and/or proposition here in the Standards.

The ten commandments are moral, perpetual commands, binding on all men in all generations. They are broadly applicable, which our Lord details much in the "Sermon on the Mount" (Matthew 5,6 and 7).

Remember also, we understand "the law" as being of three sorts:

1) ceremonial (fulfilled in Christ)
2) civil (that given to Israel as a 'church under age' which expired with that nation except that equitable principles underlying these laws may still apply)
3) moral (perpetual commandments, binding on all men, in all generations)
 
Therefore, right now I'm at the point where I can treat it like the rest of the law and extract moral principles from it where I can. Make sense?

That normally means picking and choosing according to your lusts and desires!

You need to get into a position where you and your husband are being taught the basics of orthodox Christianity, and to do so with a teachable spirit. Although I must say it's difficult not to admire a young couple who are as serious about their faith as you two are.
 
Thanks for the responses so far everyone.

Of course I don't think it's ok to lie, murder, and steal. :D tehe.

But so far I am not sure that we treat the 10C as especially different from the rest of the law. It may have been the most important law for their covenanted nation, but I'm not sure that the continuity is there for us in the new covenant. Therefore, right now I'm at the point where I can treat it like the rest of the law and extract moral principles from it where I can. Make sense?

Not really. You're stopping at biblical theology and not going on to systematic theology. Of course the 10C were first of all revealed to the Israelites, but they are also revealed to us.

Remember what Jesus said about the law in Matthew 5:17-20. Remember that you, your husband and children are Israel now. Indeed, in the New Covenant all believers are prophets, priests and kings under the Greater Prophet than Moses, and their King and Great High Priest, their Lord and Saviour from sin, Jesus Christ.

We have no better summary/rubric of the moral teaching of the whole of Scripture than the 10C. See how the WCF Larger Catechism and many Reformed scholars have arranged the whole of Christian ethics under the various commandments.

Of course the 10C are further summarised and condensed under the Two Greatest Commandments, but being sinners even after regeneration, we still need detailed guidance on how to love God and our neighbour, unless we think we have reached a sort of superspirituality. Many doing so have moved to antinomianism and from antinomianism to spiritual shipwreck.

Doing away with the guidance of God's specific and detailed commands, they have become like madmen who think they can fly without a plane.

I'm born again! I've out grown the law!

Yes. We are born again but we're also still sinners!

Look at me, I know what to do without referring to the 10C, without referring to the Bible! All you need is love, yah-da-da-da! Crash, Bang, Wallop!

See the mess Western society is in. A large part of that is because sandal-wearing hippies, who believed all you needed was "love" took over in family, church and state.
 
Last edited:
The Scriptures themselves, even Moses, set these ten commandments apart as a kind of "cornerstone" to the rest of the Israelite statutes.

Ex.34:28 "And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

Dt.10:4 "And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me."

There are several passages in the NT which either summarize these commands, offer a shortened listing, etc. Jesus implies that the two "great commandments" are sums of the law, according to the well-known Love-God/Love-Neighbor (1-4, 5-10) scheme.

Here is Rom.13:8-10, following the passage that affirms the propriety of government, and presumably their duty to the "second table."
8Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.​
Consider this presentation from 1Tim.1:
8Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.​
See how these are all out of "the law" that speaks against such sins. Clearly, Paul expects New Testament Ministers to know, follow, and preach "the law" for the conviction of sin, and as the rule for righteousness. And to do this without at the same time laying the old Mosaic yoke upon the faithful.

So, some distinction is intended by Christ in the NT between that which is still in force from ancient times, and before his Cross, and afterward under his government. A government rules. It legislates, adjudicates, and enforces.

Christ is the only Law-giver in Zion, so what law has he given? He gave the Ten Commandments himself on Sinai. See above, both for his own summary and commentary in his NT appearance, and his teaching as promoted by his apostles. But as has already been noted, the 10C didn't just become his will for man at Sinai. Not unless (for instance) we think Abel's slaying by Cain was something less than murder, and a violation of what we later on call "the 6th Commandment)".
 
Thanks for the responses so far everyone.

Of course I don't think it's ok to lie, murder, and steal. :D tehe.

But so far I am not sure that we treat the 10C as especially different from the rest of the law. It may have been the most important law for their covenanted nation, but I'm not sure that the continuity is there for us in the new covenant. Therefore, right now I'm at the point where I can treat it like the rest of the law and extract moral principles from it where I can. Make sense?

Ah, now I understand what you mean. If the 10 commandments are the same as the rest of the Mosaic law, then it would have to be decided which ones are moral, ceremonial, or civil the same way it is decided in the rest of the law, which is mostly by common sense. For instance, it is clear that the prohibition of witchcraft is moral, while the punishment for it is civil, and it is clear that the dietary laws are ceremonial (especially since Christ declared all foods clean).

The problem with this is that the 10 commandments are separated from the rest of the law, spoken before all the Hebrews and not just to Moses (Ex. 20), and written on stone. This would seem to indicate that they are in a category all their own. Further proof is the fact that they all seem so basic. All of the 10 except the 4th are commandments that most of the Gentile world has always had laws against, even the most debased cultures. So they are clearly moral by virtue of being set apart from the rest of the law and by virtue of being such basic truths. No Gentile would have been surprised that murder was considered wrong, though he would have been surprised to hear that sewing two garments together is wrong.
 
Again, I appreciate everyone's responses.

The more I think about this, the more frustrated I get. At this moment, neither side convinces me. Should I try to figure this out ASAP, or should I be more patient?
 
Again, I appreciate everyone's responses.

The more I think about this, the more frustrated I get. At this moment, neither side convinces me. Should I try to figure this out ASAP, or should I be more patient?
Wow. You've already listened to all of those sermons, and read all the relevant material? You're quick. I suggest be patient. Listen to those sermons. Read the materials provided. As for you not being "convinced," well I cannot say. It doesn't change the truth of the matter. God has a moral law. It is forever.

Ok. I will listen to those sermons.

I am only twenty years old. Thinking about something for more than a day is too long. :D :p ;)
 
Again, I appreciate everyone's responses.

The more I think about this, the more frustrated I get. At this moment, neither side convinces me. Should I try to figure this out ASAP, or should I be more patient?

I should explain a little more what I mean by this.

Am I right in assuming that this is something very important? I think it is. Since it is so important, I want to have the answer NOW so that I can know how to read God's word and apply it to my life correctly. But I am not smart enough to have it figured out right now. That is why I am frustrated.
 
Megan,

I understand exactly how you feel about this issue. I have had the same questions, and to a degree still do.

-----Added 12/29/2009 at 06:57:15 EST-----

Regarding how important it is to find an answer soon...is it the 4th you're struggling with? I ask because I assume you already don't want to steal, make idols, etc. ;) If it's the 4th, why don't you try setting the Lord's Day aside even before you are convinced fully? That is what I have tried to do, and it has been a great blessing and has improved my whole week. Spend the Lord's Day in Bible study and prayer, and you will profit from it. I am not 100% convinced the 4th is moral yet, but while we are studying it, why not set the day aside as special? It is worth it, I promise!
 
Megan,

I guess I could ask him because he is on the board too but how does your husband feel about this? He is to be the spiritual leader of the household so I was just wondering if he was studying this out as well. If he knows that you are struggling with this, then he could be a help to you by diligently studying this and bringing you along to the right concusion (that they are a part of the moral law and binding :D).
 
Megan,

You're asking an important question. What you're considering is called "antinomianism." It's common among modern evangelicals to so identify the 10 Commandments with national Israel with the result that, when the Old (Mosaic) covenant is fulfilled so are the 10 commandments. As a consequence people commonly say, "The ten commandments are no longer binding."

The church has been thinking about this problem for a long time; much longer than a day! (I know you were kidding but I have two daughters your age so....) That's why we have traditionally distinguished between the civil, ceremonial, and moral aspects of the law. The Decalogue, the 10 commandments, are the summary of the moral law.

As others have said, the Apostle Paul appeals to the fact that the law repeated at Sinai was first given to Adam and Eve. The short summary given by our Lord (in the NT; Matt 22:37-40) is "love God with all your faculties and your neighbor as yourself." Our Lord, who gave the law in creation, re-stated it at Sinai, gave it again on another Mt, i the sermon on the Mount (Matt 5-7).

This category of creation is very important. The Apostle Paul appealed to it (1 Tim 2) as did our Lord (in his teaching on divorce). They both used the creational law, the substance of which was repeated at Sinai, to say that there are permanent, abiding, laws which govern all people in all times and are not specific to national Israel.

Yet, there are elements in the Decalogue that are specific to national Israel. E.g. in the fifth commandment there is a promise, "that your days may be long in the land...." That land promise belonged to national Israel. In the New Testament, the Apostle Paul repeats the fifth commandment (to Christians, in the NT so it's not just for Israel) but he changes the promise in Eph 6:2 to make it more general because the national covenant ended with the death of Christ.

So, you're right to recognize that Israel was a temporary arrangement, that it had a specific function in the history of salvation, and that function has been discharged and fulfilled with the coming of Christ. You're conclusion, however, that the moral law is not in force any longer, doesn't follow and contradicts the repeated and explicit teaching of the NT itself. Sin is stil lawlnessness (1 Jo 2). Idolatry is still sin (1 Cor 10:14), murder is still sin (matt 5; Mk 7; Rom 1; Rom 13).

Finally, the moral law is grounded in the nature of God. The history of redemption does away with those things that specifically Israelitish, but it doesn't do away with God's moral law because those laws reflect who and what God is and that doesn't change.

So, there's a reason why the Reformed confessions and catechisms all teach the abiding validity of the moral law. It's not just that we're a bunch of killjoys; it's because the law is grounded in God's nature, revealed in creation to Adam, re-stated at Sinai, and re-published again in the NT without the Israelitish elements.

We did a conference on this very topic a few years back. Here are the mp3s:

http://www.wscal.edu/bookstore/store/mp3_details.php?id=2336
 
Megan,

You're asking an important question. What you're considering is called "antinomianism."

Wow, I thought that antinomianism involved believing that we may now sin and it's no longer... "sinful." Is that what believing the 10C are no longer binding on all men leads to? Because I certainly don't believe we can sin so that grace may abound! Paul condemns that.

That's why we have traditionally distinguished between the civil, ceremonial, and moral aspects of the law. The Decalogue, the 10 commandments, are the summary of the moral law.

I have heard the criticism that it was unhelpful that Calvin made these categories in the law. Why is that?

You're conclusion, however, that the moral law is not in force any longer, doesn't follow and contradicts the repeated and explicit teaching of the NT itself. Sin is stil lawlnessness (1 Jo 2). Idolatry is still sin (1 Cor 10:14), murder is still sin (matt 5; Mk 7; Rom 1; Rom 13).

I still think that those things are sin. Like I said, like there are moral elements in the law that we can extract, perhaps we can do that with the ten commandments as well. So we can know then that murder, theft, and idolatry are sin. Or are you saying that I have no basis for knowing what the moral law is if I don't accept the 10C as binding on all men, and the summary of all law?

So, there's a reason why the Reformed confessions and catechisms all teach the abiding validity of the moral law. It's not just that we're a bunch of killjoys;

I don't think you're killjoys. :)
 
One thing that has been helpful in understanding this, is read Matthew 5-7. This is sometimes called "The greatest sermon ever preached." While all Scripture is God's Word, our Lord is giving an extended teaching of didache (doctrine) here.

The context is the broad application of the ten commandments to us as a standard of righteousness.

Not only are sinful deeds violations of God's perfect standard, but the thoughts and words related to them.

So, being angry "without cause" is a violation of the sixth commandment, etc.

That's why when we get to the fourth commandment, if on the Lord's Day, we spend our time watching, thinking about and talking about football, our sin is being revealed.

The uses of law (summarized in the Westminster Standards) are:

1) point people to their need for Christ
2) retrain evil
3) a "mirror" of what the Christian life should look like (a rule for life)

Rather than abrogating the ten commandments, our Lord is establishing them in their broad application as a standard for the lives of all men.

A standard by which all men, believer and unbeliever will one day be judged by Him.
 
Quote from Megan
Wow, I thought that antinomianism involved believing that we may now sin and it's no longer... "sinful." Is that what believing the 10C are no longer binding on all men leads to? Because I certainly don't believe we can sin so that grace may abound! Paul condemns that.

It can lead to that, because we're abandoning the foundational and basic moral anchor that God has put in the Scriptures for us. We are still sinners after we are born again remember, so we still need God's rules to guide us.

Believing that the 10C are for us doesn't make us immune from sin of course but it does give us a light for our path and a lamp for our feet, and if we love these commands of God revealed afresh in Christ, who kept them perfectly, we'll want to obey them.
 
I haven't yet gotten to listen to any of those sermons yet. I haven't had time. But once I get the time I will listen to them and come back to this thread if I have any questions. I'll also read the Sermon on the Mount again.
 
This has been alluded to in earlier posts in this thread, but thought this should be posted:

Luke 18:18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’”

We would do well to heed the Word of the Lord.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top