How do Reformed view the Question of the Jews/Israel then?

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Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
This was being discussed in another thread, and thought would be interesting to expand upon it here...

I am surprised tht there seems to be so much support for the concept that God is still dealing with the jewish people, and maybe even a plan for israel among Covenant theology believers?

My experience until, now has been dealing with those who held to God dealings stopping pretty much in AD 70....
 
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I am surprised tht there seems to be so much support for the concept that God is still dealing with the jewish people, and maybe even a plan for israel among Covenant theology believers?

The Reformed teach that the coming of the kingdom entails that the gospel will be "propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, [and] the fulness of the Gentiles brought in" (Larger Catechism, answer 191). It is part of the present dispensation in which Jew and Gentile are fellow heirs. There is nothing to suggest Israel will possess a special prerogative. Christ is the head of all principality and power. He has the pre-eminence.
 
If you're interested in a thorough work, pick up Iain Murray's, The Puritan Hope. It deals with the fact that the Reformed classically had a thoroughly optimistic view of the future. One main reason was that they believed in times of revival, and prayed for it. This belief and concept was rooted fundamentally in Romans 11, where Paul addresses ETHNIC Israel, saying that after the fulness of the Gentiles is complete, God will again send revival outpourings upon the Jewish people, to such an extreme that he can say, in a sense, "all Israel will be saved." The meaning isn't that all Jews will be saved whether they believed in Jesus or not, but that an unprecedented number of Jews will then belief. If you go back to older literature, you'll find that the favorite topic of "missions conferences" used to be this very thing.

Your view of ethnic Israel, can I say with love and good will, is misguided and cold. And perhaps arrogant. This is in fact the very reason Paul wrote Romans 11. "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." (v25). The believing Jews used to pray for the nations. The least we can do, being grafted in as it were, into THEIR tree, is pray for them. And we don't pray for them like a "hail mary"; we pray with great expectation because God has himself promised to again pour out His Spirit upon ethnic Israel.
 
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The Reformed teach that the coming of the kingdom entails that the gospel will be "propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, [and] the fulness of the Gentiles brought in" (Larger Catechism, answer 191). It is part of the present dispensation in which Jew and Gentile are fellow heirs. There is nothing to suggest Israel will possess a special prerogative. Christ is the head of all principality and power. He has the pre-eminence.
There are some though who would hold to God still dealing with the Jews in a sense of election, as to them coming all to Jesus at his returning?
 
If you're interested in a thorough work, pick up Iain Murray's, The Puritan Hope. It deals with the fact that the Reformed classically had a thoroughly optimistic view of the future. One main reason was that they believed in times of revival, and prayed for it. This belief and concept was rooted fundamentally in Romans 11, where Paul addresses ETHNIC Israel, saying that after the fulness of the Gentiles is complete, God will again send revival outpourings upon the Jewish people, to such an extreme that he can say, in a sense, "all Israel will be saved." The meaning isn't that all Jews will be saved whether they believed in Jesus or not, but that an unprecedented number of Jews will then belief. If you go back to older literature, you'll find that the favorite topic of "missions conferences" used to be this very thing.

Your view of ethnic Israel, can I say with love and good will, is misguided and cold. And perhaps arrogant. This is in fact the very reason Paul wrote Romans 11. "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." (v25). The believing Jews used to pray for the nations. The least we can do, being grafted in as it were, into THEIR tree, is pray for them. And we don't pray for them like a "hail mary"; we pray with great expectation because God has himself promised to again pour out His Spirit upon ethnic Israel.
I se the Lord as bring back in the jewish people in a great way right around the time of the second advent, is that now what you are stating here also?
 
I think picking up "The Puritan Hope" is an excellent suggestion, although it is more of historical value rather than an example of what is widely held today. But it is probably eye opening for those of various perspectives, from Reformed people to dispensational and others.

To your question, I think the two main camps are 1) "All Israel will be saved" refers to elect Jews through the ages and it doesn't mean there will necessarily be a big "end time" conversion and 2) There will be a big "end time" conversion. Some have associated #2 with postmillennialism or a postmil influence, but it seems to be held by a fair number of amils today.

In general, David, I think you may find that some more in-depth reading would be helpful, or perhaps listening to appropriate sermons or lectures if you prefer that, keeping in mind that there is no Reformed "pope" and that there will be some differences between teachers. It seems that the same questions keep coming up over and over in these threads. I don't know that you're quite going to get what you're looking for or need by interacting with people who may only have a few minutes to spare here and there as opposed to you reading a few hundred pages. I think the latter would go much further. (For example, I am not from a dispensational background. Even though I had seen dispensationalism derided on Reformed boards and from the pulpit for years, it wasn't until I read some standard dispensational works that I actually understood what they really taught. It's not that what I'd heard from its opponents was some kind of total distortion. It's simply that I wasn't seeing the full picture. That's largely because I spent almost all of my time on email groups and message boards as opposed to reading more books.)

In my experience, and in that of others far wiser than I, too often those who put an inordinate emphasis on hashing things out online in an attempt to get doctrinal positions nailed down often change positions hastily and superficially and sometimes end up going off the deep end one way or another. We've seen that here with a number of folks, some of whom have gone into a completely unnecessary cage stage and others have apostatized altogether. I've tried to take those kinds of shortcuts myself in the past and still have much learning yet to do. Some issues I thought I had settled years ago aren't quite as settled as I thought, partly because I didn't read as thoroughly as I should have.

On the Reformed amil side, maybe read some of O. Palmer Robertson's work ("Christ of the Covenants," "Israel of God" etc.) I believe you may find differences between that and "The Puritan Hope." Riddlebarger and Storms are standard Reformed amil texts. (The charismatic Storms isn't confessional, but apparently his book has been widely acclaimed. But it may just be a bigger version of Riddlebarger in which the guns are aimed at Dispensationalists moreso than setting forth a comprehensive amil view. I think Riddlebarger recommends books by A. Hoekema and C. Venema for that. Of course there are postmil works out there too, theonomic and more or less non-theonomic.) Also look at Systematic Theology texts which will have sections dedicated to eschatology as well as the relationship between the church and Israel. Charles and A.A. Hodge, Berkhof and maybe a few others are freely available online.

There is a ton of resources available online at YouTube, Vimeo, etc. including seminary lectures. (That said, some of those tend to be rather rudimentary and you lack the give and take you'd have if you were a student. But they can be quite worthwhile depending on the teacher and subject matter.) There is a ton of resources available at Monergism.com
 
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I think picking up "The Puritan Hope" is an excellent suggestion, although it is more of historical value rather than an example of what is widely held today. But it is probably eye opening for those of various perspectives, from Reformed people to dispensational and others.

To your question, I think the two main camps are 1) "All Israel will be saved" refers to elect Jews through the ages and it doesn't mean there will necessarily be a big "end time" conversion and 2) There will be a big "end time" conversion. Some have associated #2 with postmillennialism or a postmil influence, but it seems to be held by a fair number of amils today.

In general, David, I think you may find that some more in-depth reading would be helpful, or perhaps listening to appropriate sermons or lectures if you prefer that, keeping in mind that there is no Reformed "pope" and that there will be some differences between teachers. It seems that the same questions keep coming up over and over in these threads. I don't know that you're quite going to get what you're looking for or need by interacting with people who may only have a few minutes to spare here and there as opposed to you reading a few hundred pages. I think the latter would go much further. (For example, I am not from a dispensational background. Even though I had seen dispensationalism derided on Reformed boards and from the pulpit for years, it wasn't until I read some standard dispensational works that I actually understood what they really taught. It's not that what I'd heard from its opponents was some kind of total distortion. It's simply that I wasn't seeing the full picture. That's largely because I spent almost all of my time on email groups and message boards as opposed to reading more books.)

In my experience, and in that of others far wiser than I, too often those who put an inordinate emphasis on hashing things out online in an attempt to get doctrinal positions nailed down often change positions hastily and superficially and sometimes end up going off the deep end one way or another. We've seen that here with a number of folks, some of whom have gone into a completely unnecessary cage stage and others have apostatized altogether. I've tried to take those kinds of shortcuts myself in the past and still have much learning yet to do. Some issues I thought I had settled years ago aren't quite as settled as I thought, partly because I didn't read as thoroughly as I should have.

On the Reformed amil side, maybe read some of O. Palmer Robertson's work ("Christ of the Covenants," "Israel of God" etc.) I believe you may find differences between that and "The Puritan Hope." Riddlebarger and Storms are standard Reformed amil texts. (The charismatic Storms isn't confessional, but apparently his book has been widely acclaimed. But it may just be a bigger version of Riddlebarger in which the guns are aimed at Dispensationalists moreso than setting forth a comprehensive amil view. I think Riddlebarger recommends books by A. Hoekema and C. Venema for that. Of course there are postmil works out there too, theonomic and more or less non-theonomic.) Also look at Systematic Theology texts which will have sections dedicated to eschatology as well as the relationship between the church and Israel. Charles and A.A. Hodge, Berkhof and maybe a few others are freely available online.

There is a ton of resources available online at YouTube, Vimeo, etc. including seminary lectures. (That said, some of those tend to be rather rudimentary and you lack the give and take you'd have if you were a student. But they can be quite worthwhile depending on the teacher and subject matter.) There is a ton of resources available at Monergism.com
I went through being a teaching Elder trained in Assemblies of God theology, to being a free will Baptist, to a Dispensational one, to now more along lines of a Reformed Baptist, so just trying to piece everything together. What has been interesting to me is how much of a variety is found even among reformed and calvinists on different issues and doctrines!
 
Ditto to what Chris said on reading the best books--and that's generally true for any locus of theology. My own recommendations:

Historic Premil: The Case for Historical Premillennialism (ed Blomberg). This book isn't as strong as the conference by the same name.

Premil debates: Three Views on the Rapture

Amil: Probably Riddlebarger; maybe Beale.

Historic Postmil: The Puritan Hope or that book by John Jefferson Davis

Theonomic Postmil: Millennialism and Social Theory by Gary North
 
There are some though who would hold to God still dealing with the Jews in a sense of election, as to them coming all to Jesus at his returning?

No. The church of Jew and Gentile is the holy nation, the elect people. The Jews turning to Christ will be the result of Spirit-empowered gospel preaching whereby they will confess Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and put their trust in Him. This will take place BEFORE Christ returns.
 
Ditto to what Chris said on reading the best books--and that's generally true for any locus of theology. My own recommendations:

Historic Premil: The Case for Historical Premillennialism (ed Blomberg). This book isn't as strong as the conference by the same name.

Premil debates: Three Views on the Rapture

Amil: Probably Riddlebarger; maybe Beale.

Historic Postmil: The Puritan Hope or that book by John Jefferson Davis

Theonomic Postmil: Millennialism and Social Theory by Gary North

There are actually two Three Views on the Rapture books, one from the late 70s and another from about 5-10 years ago that substitutes prewrath for mid-trib. The historical survey of the rapture controversy in the first one is probably worth the price alone.

There are a couple of multiple views books on millennial views too. The earlier one includes a Dispensational and a historic premil (HP) contributor (Ladd) whereas the latest one only has a progressive Dispensational contribution but has Gentry instead of Boettner representing postmil. (But that one may be more narrowly focused.)

But to David's question specifically, the one to get (if one is going to get a multiple views book at all) is probably Perspectives on Israel and the Church: Four Views, keeping in mind that some Reformed people will likely demur from some of Reymond's statements, but he seems to have been B&H's go to Reformed guy for those books. I think he contributed to at least 3 of them. The ebook editions usually go on sale for about $2.99 a few times per year. (I was disturbed by the extent to which the "Progressive Covenantal" view appears to owe to the NPP, or at least the particular views of those contributors. The bibliographies and works cited in such multi view books are among the most helpful features. It is really just kind of a way of getting oriented to some of the different views.

The amil books I was thinking of are A. Hoekema's The Bible and the Future and C. Venema's The Promise of the Future. I think those are the two that Riddlebarger recommends in his amil book for those who are looking for a comprehensive case for amil. But I think that note may have been written prior to the publication of Beale's major works.

On the Blomberg book, it appears to contain some interesting papers. (I never got around to finishing it or listening to all of the lectures, which did indeed seem to be more engaging.) But the book doesn't appear to deliver on what the title promises, which is probably why I put it aside. If I recall correctly there wasn't much of a positive case made for HP. While some unexpected twists and turns may have been taken, it seemed to me that it is more of the usual "The postmils are wrong, the amils are wrong, we KNOW Dispensational is wrong. Here I stand....but don't make me go into a lot of details." But even more lengthy books, some of which are the stuff of legend to hear some talk (mainly because they are long OOP) still spend a lot more of their time bashing pre-trib than developing a positive case for HP. That's not to say that there has to be a HP version of J. Dwight Pentecost's massive Things to Come. Most HPs would say that we aren't given that kind of detail in the Bible and that such an effort is neither possible or advisable. But surely a case for the position with several contributors could be more comprehensive than a 200 page book. I don't think that it has come close to doing for HP what Riddlebarger's book has done for amil.

Since you've been dropping North's name a lot lately, I think his statement that "you can't beat something with nothing" is apropos here. Millard Erickson has also said this that the failure to develop much of a positive case is a weakness in HP, and he is a HP himself. BTW his A Basic Guide to Eschatology is also good, although it is dated in the sense that it includes rapture views that are seldom espoused today (like partial rapture and imminent post-trib), doesn't include some more recent ones like pre-wrath, and I the only recent postmil that is cited is Boettner. But Michael Horton (certainly no premil) has recommended it and I've seen some dispensationalists say that it is even handed.
 
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No. The church of Jew and Gentile is the holy nation, the elect people. The Jews turning to Christ will be the result of Spirit-empowered gospel preaching whereby they will confess Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and put their trust in Him. This will take place BEFORE Christ returns.
During the Great tribulation as seen by some, or in a time of the church influencing the world systems, as in Post Mil?
 
There are actually two Three Views on the Rapture books, one from the late 70s and another from about 5-10 years ago that substitutes prewrath for mid-trib. The historical survey of the rapture controversy in the first one is probably worth the price alone.

There are a couple of multiple views books on millennial views too. The earlier one includes a Dispensational and a historic premil (HP) contributor (Ladd) whereas the latest one only has a progressive Dispensational contribution but has Gentry instead of Boettner representing postmil. (But that one may be more narrowly focused.)

But to David's question specifically, the one to get (if one is going to get a multiple views book at all) is probably Perspectives on Israel and the Church: Four Views, keeping in mind that some Reformed people will likely demur from some of Reymond's statements, but he seems to have been B&H's go to Reformed guy for those books. I think he contributed to at least 3 of them. The ebook editions usually go on sale for about $2.99 a few times per year. (I was disturbed by the extent to which the "Progressive Covenantal" view appears to owe to the NPP, or at least the particular views of those contributors. The bibliographies and works cited in such multi view books are among the most helpful features. It is really just kind of a way of getting oriented to some of the different views.

The amil books I was thinking of are A. Hoekema's The Bible and the Future and C. Venema's The Promise of the Future. I think those are the two that Riddlebarger recommends in his amil book for those who are looking for a comprehensive case for amil. But I think that note may have been written prior to the publication of Beale's major works.

On the Blomberg book, it appears to contain some interesting papers. (I never got around to finishing it or listening to all of the lectures, which did indeed seem to be more engaging.) But the book doesn't appear to deliver on what the title promises, which is probably why I put it aside. If I recall correctly there wasn't much of a positive case made for HP. While some unexpected twists and turns may have been taken, it seemed to me that it is more of the usual "The postmils are wrong, the amils are wrong, we KNOW Dispensational is wrong. Here I stand....but don't make me go into a lot of details." But even more lengthy books, some of which are the stuff of legend to hear some talk (mainly because they are long OOP) still spend a lot more of their time bashing pre-trib than developing a positive case for HP. That's not to say that there has to be a HP version of J. Dwight Pentecost's massive Things to Come. Most HPs would say that we aren't given that kind of detail in the Bible and that such an effort is neither possible or advisable. But surely a case for the position with several contributors could be more comprehensive than a 200 page book. I don't think that it has come close to doing for HP what Riddlebarger's book has done for amil.

Since you've been dropping North's name a lot lately, I think his statement that "you can't beat something with nothing" is apropos here. Millard Erickson has also said this that the failure to develop much of a positive case is a weakness in HP, and he is a HP himself. BTW his A Basic Guide to Eschatology is also good, although it is dated in the sense that it includes rapture views that are seldom espoused today (like partial rapture and imminent post-trib), doesn't include some more recent ones like pre-wrath, and I the only recent postmil that is cited is Boettner. But Michael Horton (certainly no premil) has recommended it and I've seen some dispensationalists say that it is even handed.
The book that I read while in school was the one by GE Ladd, and he seemed to be supporting a historical premil viewpoint. I was once really supporting pre trib/pre mil view, but now have gone to more into Historical premil view, as did not Spurgeon himself see that way also?
The pre trib rapture viewpoint seems to be losing steam though among Evangelicals, as the progressive Dispensational and Covenant premil positions seem to be coming to a center consensus position now!
 
John Murray's exposition on Romans 11 was extremely helpful to me (in his commentary on Romans).
 
During the Great tribulation as seen by some, or in a time of the church influencing the world systems, as in Post Mil?

I cannot see where holy Scripture connects things together in a way that answers your question, so I will simply say I do not know, except to answer that I take tribulation to be a reality which exists throughout church history in greater or lesser degrees. As I look forward to a period of unprecedented gospel blessing in this world it makes sense that this would be the time for the conversion of the Jews; but the Lord of hosts has a way of surprising His people with things they looked not for, so that they feel themselves to be as men that dreamed.
 
No. The church of Jew and Gentile is the holy nation, the elect people. The Jews turning to Christ will be the result of Spirit-empowered gospel preaching whereby they will confess Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and put their trust in Him. This will take place BEFORE Christ returns.

It will take place about 1000 years before Christ returns. The Jews will be 'life from the dead." The conversion of the Jews will herald in the first general and spiritual resurrection of the Church, Revelation 20.4. So Thomas Boston, William a Brakel, James Durham, Rabbi Duncan, the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, and a host of other Reformed divines.

Granted, there is a first resurrection of individual sinners, John 5.25, and seminally, this issues in the general resurrection of the church found in Rev. 20.4, when the faith of the martyrs will be revived, and Rome and Islam destroyed, in answer to the prayers of the martyrs. But the conversion of the Jews is that which will usher in the promised latter day glory found in Isaiah 2 and in many other portions of the Scripture in the Old Testament.

But the Gentile believers are they who must provoke the Jews to jealousy. This is why evangelism to the Jews must be a first priority of the Church. "To the Jew first," Romans 1.16.
 
It will take place about 1000 years before Christ returns. The Jews will be 'life from the dead." The conversion of the Jews will herald in the first general and spiritual resurrection of the Church, Revelation 20.4. So Thomas Boston, William a Brakel, James Durham, Rabbi Duncan, the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, and a host of other Reformed divines.

Granted, there is a first resurrection of individual sinners, John 5.25, and seminally, this issues in the general resurrection of the church found in Rev. 20.4, when the faith of the martyrs will be revived, and Rome and Islam destroyed, in answer to the prayers of the martyrs. But the conversion of the Jews is that which will usher in the promised latter day glory found in Isaiah 2 and in many other portions of the Scripture in the Old Testament.

But the Gentile believers are they who must provoke the Jews to jealousy. This is why evangelism to the Jews must be a first priority of the Church. "To the Jew first," Romans 1.16.
So you would see this in a Post Mil way?
 
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