How many celebrate Christmas as a "cultural" event?
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Gifts on Dec. 5th (Sinterklaas) and religious celebration only on Dec 25th.
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
I am quite new to the idea of the RPW and had never given the issue of NOT celebrating Christmas any thought until I started reading the PB. I had assumed (ignorantly) that only Jehovah Witnesses refrained from Christmas. Currently, our four children and their spouses and children will fly in to So. Cal. to join my wife, youngest daughter, and myself for a weeklong family time culminating in a California wedding reception for the most recently married son. We will have carols, a tree, gifts, food, day trips and excursions, and board games. Between this year and next, I do want to read what is written to come to some conclusions about best practices for a consistent Christian.
javajedi
Puritan Board Freshman
This about sums up our family. I also could not answer the poll as "no way" is out and we only have a "religious meaning" since its about Christ's birth and not a Christ-less, politically-correct, Santa "holidays" time.
I also love the fact that stores and secular radio stations play Christmas hymns (carols) that proclaim the Gospel and Christ's work and divinity very clearly (yea, along with the other sappy, corny songs). Maybe, just maybe some may actually listen to the lyrics. When else do you hear hymns on the radio?
My best "holiday season" ever was last year. Although I had to exchange some gifts on the evening of the 24th, I had a very enjoyable time with some of the church people who had invited us over. The 25th was excellent: a friend came over and we practiced kung fu moves on one another. And there were no decorations and no hoopla. If one could persuade family to see things from one's point of view, or alternatively, relocate once again to a foreign country....
I am glad you made this statement, I was unclear (am I ever clear), I really was not speaking of a secular Christ-less Advent! I was really trying to keep things civil by asking who celebrated this day in the home as opposed to a Church Holy-Day. I was not trying to "avoid" Jesus! I was trying to avoid offending those who do not practice such within the Church.
This about sums up our family. I also could not answer the poll as "no way" is out and we only have a "religious meaning" since its about Christ's birth and not a Christ-less, politically-correct, Santa "holidays" time.
I also love the fact that stores and secular radio stations play Christmas hymns (carols) that proclaim the Gospel and Christ's work and divinity very clearly (yea, along with the other sappy, corny songs). Maybe, just maybe some may actually listen to the lyrics. When else do you hear hymns on the radio?
Bygracealone
Puritan Board Sophomore
Food for thought from Schwertley's work on the subject (available in full form at The Regulative Principle of Worship and Christmas)
Quote from the above reference:
The fact that Christmas is full of pagan practices is universally recognized. "Yet many Christians contend that such practices no longer bear pagan connotations, and believe that the observance of Christmas provides an opportunity for worship and witness bearing."24 Many Christians argue that they do not worship the Christmas tree, and that the pagan origins are so far in the past as to be harmless. But such a view, while common in our day, shows a total disregard of the biblical teaching regarding idols, the paraphernalia associated with idolatry, and the monuments to idolatry.
God has such a strong hatred of idolatry that Israel was not just commanded to avoid the worship of idols. Israel was also specifically ordered to destroy everything associated with idolatry. "Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: and ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God. . . . [A]nd that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God" (Deut. 12:2-4, 30-31).
[he goes on to note]
God does not want His church to take pagan days, and those pagan and popish rites and paraphernalia that go with them and adapt them to Christian use. He simply commands us to abolish them altogether from the face of the earth forever. You may not be offended by the Yule log, the Christmas tree, the mistletoe, the holly berries and the selection of a pagan day to celebrate Christ's birth, but God is offended. God commands us to get rid of the monuments and paraphernalia of paganism.
If your wife was promiscuous before you married her would you be offended if she had pictures of her old boyfriends on her dresser? Would it bother you if she celebrated the various anniversaries relating to her past relationships? Would you be offended if she kept and cherished the various rings, jewelry and mementos given to her by her old boyfriends? Of course you would be offended! The Lord God is infinitely more zealous of His honor than you are; He is a jealous God. Could Israel take festival days to Baal, Ashteroth, Dagon and Molech and alter them to make them pleasing to God? Of course not! The Bible makes very clear which kings of Judah pleased God the most. God is pleased when idols, their temples, their religious dress, earrings, sacred houses, sacred trees, poles, ornaments, rites, names and days are utterly cut off from the earth, never again to be restored. God wants His bride to eliminate forever the monuments, the days, the paraphernalia and the mementos of idolatry. "Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain" (Jer. 10:2-3). "Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods" (Deut. 12:31).
Christians must not only put away the monuments of past idolatry but also everything associated with present idolatry. Christmas is the most important holy day in Roman Catholicism. The name Christmas comes from Romanism: Christ-mass, or the Mass of Christ. The name Christmas unites the name or title of our glorious God and Savior with the idolatrous, blasphemous Mass of Popedom. Christ-mass is a mixture of Pagan idolatry and Popish invention.
The Roman Catholic Church hates the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Roman church uses human inventions, such as Christmas, to keep millions of people in darkness. The fact that millions of Bible-believing Protestants are observing a Roman Catholic holy day which has not been commanded anywhere in God's Word reveals the sad state of modern Evangelicalism. "We cannot conform, communicate, and symbolize with the idolatrous Papists, in the use of the same, without making ourselves idolaters by participation."26 Our attitude should be that of the Protestant Reformer Bucer who said, "I would to God that every holy day whatsoever besides the Lord's day were abolished. That zeal which brought them first in, was without all warrant of the Word, and merely followed corrupt reason, forsooth to drive out the holy days of the pagans, as one nail drives out another. Those holy days have been so tainted with superstitions that I wonder we tremble not at their very names."27
Quote from the above reference:
The fact that Christmas is full of pagan practices is universally recognized. "Yet many Christians contend that such practices no longer bear pagan connotations, and believe that the observance of Christmas provides an opportunity for worship and witness bearing."24 Many Christians argue that they do not worship the Christmas tree, and that the pagan origins are so far in the past as to be harmless. But such a view, while common in our day, shows a total disregard of the biblical teaching regarding idols, the paraphernalia associated with idolatry, and the monuments to idolatry.
God has such a strong hatred of idolatry that Israel was not just commanded to avoid the worship of idols. Israel was also specifically ordered to destroy everything associated with idolatry. "Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: and ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God. . . . [A]nd that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God" (Deut. 12:2-4, 30-31).
[he goes on to note]
God does not want His church to take pagan days, and those pagan and popish rites and paraphernalia that go with them and adapt them to Christian use. He simply commands us to abolish them altogether from the face of the earth forever. You may not be offended by the Yule log, the Christmas tree, the mistletoe, the holly berries and the selection of a pagan day to celebrate Christ's birth, but God is offended. God commands us to get rid of the monuments and paraphernalia of paganism.
If your wife was promiscuous before you married her would you be offended if she had pictures of her old boyfriends on her dresser? Would it bother you if she celebrated the various anniversaries relating to her past relationships? Would you be offended if she kept and cherished the various rings, jewelry and mementos given to her by her old boyfriends? Of course you would be offended! The Lord God is infinitely more zealous of His honor than you are; He is a jealous God. Could Israel take festival days to Baal, Ashteroth, Dagon and Molech and alter them to make them pleasing to God? Of course not! The Bible makes very clear which kings of Judah pleased God the most. God is pleased when idols, their temples, their religious dress, earrings, sacred houses, sacred trees, poles, ornaments, rites, names and days are utterly cut off from the earth, never again to be restored. God wants His bride to eliminate forever the monuments, the days, the paraphernalia and the mementos of idolatry. "Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain" (Jer. 10:2-3). "Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods" (Deut. 12:31).
Christians must not only put away the monuments of past idolatry but also everything associated with present idolatry. Christmas is the most important holy day in Roman Catholicism. The name Christmas comes from Romanism: Christ-mass, or the Mass of Christ. The name Christmas unites the name or title of our glorious God and Savior with the idolatrous, blasphemous Mass of Popedom. Christ-mass is a mixture of Pagan idolatry and Popish invention.
The Roman Catholic Church hates the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Roman church uses human inventions, such as Christmas, to keep millions of people in darkness. The fact that millions of Bible-believing Protestants are observing a Roman Catholic holy day which has not been commanded anywhere in God's Word reveals the sad state of modern Evangelicalism. "We cannot conform, communicate, and symbolize with the idolatrous Papists, in the use of the same, without making ourselves idolaters by participation."26 Our attitude should be that of the Protestant Reformer Bucer who said, "I would to God that every holy day whatsoever besides the Lord's day were abolished. That zeal which brought them first in, was without all warrant of the Word, and merely followed corrupt reason, forsooth to drive out the holy days of the pagans, as one nail drives out another. Those holy days have been so tainted with superstitions that I wonder we tremble not at their very names."27
I actually avoid Christmas now and say Advent, we know that the incarnation was a real space time event, (as a Presbyterian, like yourself due to RPW I do not celebrate it in Church) that said my Brother, I see nothing wrong with making a personal in house Celebration. If you are not willing to go that far (which is fine, go with your conscience) then it may be a friends/family time, I have (for example) a cousin who is a Senior "Fly-Boy" for Delta, this is the only time I get to see him and a number of others. To me that is why I cal it a "Holiday" indeed, what is more "Holy and Sacred than family? Not much.
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Bygracealone
Puritan Board Sophomore
Brother, I have no problem with the desire to spend time with our families. I plan to spend the day with my family and my in-laws. It so happens that our culture sets this time aside; it's a time many take off from work and some are given time time off of work for things like plant shut-downs, etc. so we do well to make the best of the situation. Since many of our family and friends have the time off it's only right that we should spend that time together. No problem here with that.
I simply shared the quote above to spark some thought as to the other things (the baggage) that come with the territory and what place, if any, they are to have in our lives during this time. I realize the quote is straight-forward, pulling no punches, which is Schwertley's style (and oftentimes discredits his otherwise good work), but I think it at least addresses the issue at hand.
Please know that I did not intend to offend you brother. I just thought the quote would add some substance to the thread. I realize me and the other 11 folks hold the minority position here, so I figured I'd offer something from the other side of the aisle (so to speak).
I simply shared the quote above to spark some thought as to the other things (the baggage) that come with the territory and what place, if any, they are to have in our lives during this time. I realize the quote is straight-forward, pulling no punches, which is Schwertley's style (and oftentimes discredits his otherwise good work), but I think it at least addresses the issue at hand.
Please know that I did not intend to offend you brother. I just thought the quote would add some substance to the thread. I realize me and the other 11 folks hold the minority position here, so I figured I'd offer something from the other side of the aisle (so to speak).
What the quotation clearly shows is that culture is not religiously neutral. This thread has regrettably proceeded on the basis that it can be.
Bygracealone
Puritan Board Sophomore
No offence Matthew, but that my brother is HARD to avoid and at the risk of sounding like I am ringing my own bells, I think I have done a pretty good job of keeping things balanced and civil. GOOD ETEXAS, GOOD BOY!
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No offence Matthew, but that my brother is HARD to avoid and at the risk of sounding like I am ringing my own bells, I think I have done a pretty good job of keeping things balanced and civil. GOOD ETEXAS, GOOD BOY!
The other option in the poll is, "Yes, though I give it no religious meaning, I do enjoy the cultural context and love seeing family!
Augusta
Puritan Board Doctor
No offence Matthew, but that my brother is HARD to avoid and at the risk of sounding like I am ringing my own bells, I think I have done a pretty good job of keeping things balanced and civil. GOOD ETEXAS, GOOD BOY!
Actually the truth is rarely civil. Jesus and the Apostles more often than not offended everybody and didn't try to be balanced. If people don't pick up stones, you may not be telling it like it is.
The intent of this thread is NOT to cast stones, and I do tell it like it is, this is and will remain a civil discussion, about what we do or do not do on the 24th and 25th. The MINUTE it stops being civil I will petition a Admin or Mod to close it......PERIOD!No offence Matthew, but that my brother is HARD to avoid and at the risk of sounding like I am ringing my own bells, I think I have done a pretty good job of keeping things balanced and civil. GOOD ETEXAS, GOOD BOY!
Actually the truth is rarely civil. Jesus and the Apostles more often than not offended everybody and didn't try to be balanced. If people don't pick up stones, you may not be telling it like it is.
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Well you are a Lady and picking up stones might hurt you Sister! I don't want that, so if you dislke what I say, throw marshmallows!
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Davidius
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
The intent of this thread is NOT to cast stones, and I do tell it like it is, this is and will remain a civil discussion, about what we do or do not do on the 24th and 25th. The MINUTE it stops being civil I will have an Admin or Mod close it......PERIOD!No offence Matthew, but that my brother is HARD to avoid and at the risk of sounding like I am ringing my own bells, I think I have done a pretty good job of keeping things balanced and civil. GOOD ETEXAS, GOOD BOY!
Actually the truth is rarely civil. Jesus and the Apostles more often than not offended everybody and didn't try to be balanced. If people don't pick up stones, you may not be telling it like it is.
Max,
There is a good lesson you could learn here as a newcomer to a Reformed denomination. It is the same lesson that I myself have had to learn on several occasions when discussing volatile subjects with believers from my own or other Reformed denominations. The lesson is this: you will never be Reformed enough. Someone will always be more Reformed than you are and you just give a polite nod when overshadowed by those who think that all family planning is sinful or that putting up an evergreen tree in your living room is idolatry. Fortunately these are mainly peripheral issues and fellowship need not be hindered!
This is called the rule of: I am Reformeder than you!The intent of this thread is NOT to cast stones, and I do tell it like it is, this is and will remain a civil discussion, about what we do or do not do on the 24th and 25th. The MINUTE it stops being civil I will have an Admin or Mod close it......PERIOD!Actually the truth is rarely civil. Jesus and the Apostles more often than not offended everybody and didn't try to be balanced. If people don't pick up stones, you may not be telling it like it is.
Max,
There is a good lesson you could learn here as a newcomer to a Reformed denomination. It is the same lesson that I myself have had to learn on several occasions when discussing volatile subjects with believers from my own or other Reformed denominations. The lesson is this: you will never be Reformed enough. Someone will always be more Reformed than you are and you just give a polite nod when overshadowed by those who think that all family planning is sinful or that putting up an evergreen tree in your living room is idolatry. Fortunately these are mainly peripheral issues and fellowship need not be hindered!
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Davidius
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Well...To be fair to the über-Reformed I try to remind myself that their intentions are good. I'd like to at least hope that the goal is often not to just be the most Reformed guy on the block, although I am a little disconcerted when someone like Schwertley makes multiple denomination changes in the course of a few years and ends up making his own denomination because everyone else is so whack. Furthermore, one must remember that those whose views seem much more strict may very well be right. Thankfully the Reformed folk with real track records on this board are also very gracious, patient and helpful.
That is why I am PCA my Brother...they are perfect!
Furthermore, one must remember that those whose views seem much more strict may very well be right. Thankfully the Reformed folk with real track records on this board are also very gracious, patient and helpful.
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Poimen
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I haven't celebrated Christmas since I was eighteen. I don't need it and I don't want it. If I ever have a family I don't plan to celebrate it with them either.
I believe the best way to avoid the so-called 'secularization' of Christmas is to avoid the matter altogether. In reality it is a very religious holiday for Christians and non-Christians alike. But my faith doesn't depend upon the recognition of the day but what Christ did which itself, is foundational to all of our worship.
I believe the best way to avoid the so-called 'secularization' of Christmas is to avoid the matter altogether. In reality it is a very religious holiday for Christians and non-Christians alike. But my faith doesn't depend upon the recognition of the day but what Christ did which itself, is foundational to all of our worship.
Kevin
Puritan Board Doctor
"IF I ever have a family..."
Brother, if you ever hope to get married, please refrain from pontificating about how your (future, thus non present, i.e. non existent) wife will, or will not eschew the celebration of the Nativity of our Saviour.
Rather, please seek out those of our sisters who love the Christ (and his birth) trusting that God will prepare one for you that is "suitable". If she is a true child of our Lord, she will defer to your foibles.
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
After reading through this thread, I do realise that this holiday is something worth struggling over. Not to see how "reformededer" I can be, but to seek God's Will as revealed in Scripture with regards to the issue. We see Christmas out here as a witnessing tool because the secular Christmas is so popular, and we 'co-opt it for Christ', as it were. But where does that end? Do we co-opt the inverted pentagram as a tool to teach about the 11 'good' disciples, using the 11 spaces made by the lines? No, we never would (I hope...)
But once we've settled into a comfy routine, it is so much easier not to worry about it anymore. Schwertley's ecclesiastical pedigree may be questionable to some, but I can't fault several of his points. Food for thought, in any case.
But once we've settled into a comfy routine, it is so much easier not to worry about it anymore. Schwertley's ecclesiastical pedigree may be questionable to some, but I can't fault several of his points. Food for thought, in any case.
Bygracealone
Puritan Board Sophomore
Furthermore, one must remember that those whose views seem much more strict may very well be right. Thankfully the Reformed folk with real track records on this board are also very gracious, patient and helpful.
It was for this reason that I was tempted to post the quote without specific reference to Schwertley. I know many people don't care for the way he presents truth. But at the end of the day, we do well to consider the content of the message rather than the imperfections of the messenger.
By the way, Davidus, the former pastor of your Church, Doug Comin, is a good friend of mine. He also wrote a good paper on the subject available here: What Fellowship Hath Christ and Belial
Not suggesting co-opting Christmas my friend! And to compare the Advent which IS spoken of in Scripture to a pentagram and black masses is a little hard-core.
The birth of Christ was a "REAL" space time event, I practice RPW so I have no practice within the Church proper of the Holy Incarnation, but if I have devotions and reflection under my own roof, that is private worship, and I think it not unfruitful for me. If you equate the Blessed and Holy Incarnation with Witcraft, that is a matter of your own conscience. But back the point of my thread, what do you do on the 24th and 25th?
Raj
Puritan Board Sophomore
Christmas is all about Christ coming to this earth. Here in our context we do celebrate this season with hymns related to Christ's birth, paying visit to all our Church members houses together with other members. It's a great fun to sing, share about Jesus' birth, pray for the family, have refreshments and then move to another one, doing same until 24th, and finally a worship service in the worship hall on 25th, Sunday school kids singing, drama based on Jesus' birth, special songs, poems, finally pastor's message, all about Jesus coming to save us.
Christmas also becomes for us a point to start some new contacts, as unbelievers come to light the candels in the worship hall, I have not stopped them doing so, for this is how they see, Christmas celebration most of the time on TV's, once they have done, prayed in their way, I meet them, sit with them, give them gospel tract and call them again to visit us on Sundays.
We try to bring glory to God in all that we do.
Christmas also becomes for us a point to start some new contacts, as unbelievers come to light the candels in the worship hall, I have not stopped them doing so, for this is how they see, Christmas celebration most of the time on TV's, once they have done, prayed in their way, I meet them, sit with them, give them gospel tract and call them again to visit us on Sundays.
We try to bring glory to God in all that we do.
Furthermore, one must remember that those whose views seem much more strict may very well be right. Thankfully the Reformed folk with real track records on this board are also very gracious, patient and helpful.
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