How to respond to the charge that God is not outside time?

Status
Not open for further replies.

earl40

Puritan Board Professor
The following is a fellow that insists God is "in time" and "not outside" of time. (edited for brevity sake) The bolded part is the main contention I am trying to refute......

The post below

"To define time the first thing we have to do if we're going to start determining our (and God's) relationship to it. Time is simply the term that we give to things happening in a sequence. Something happening means there was a before and an after. Action requires some kind of "time"--otherwise you just have stasis.

An even more interesting question to me is, what relationship does God have to time? I find most of the common explanations unsatisfying and unbiblical. The idea that God is merely a stasis and that He exists "outside of time" in the sense that "every moment is an eternal 'now' to Him" is patently unbiblical and incoherent. Of course, there's no change in God's essence, but it's quite biblically clear that there was a....time (unless someone has a better word for it)...before God had created and after He had created. In other words, "time" is not merely some created thing that either could exist or couldn't. If God acts--if He actually does anything--then there is a "before" He does it and an "after"--in other words, time.

Of course, God is "outside of time" if what we mean by that is that He has no beginning and no end, and is not acted upon nor experiences decay. But He's not outside of "time" if time is merely a way of measuring action. God acts. He does things. Yes, He controls time. There is not some force called "time" that is prior to or above Him. But we don't need to be hyper-concerned about keeping him "outside of time" if we conceive of time as simply "God acting"--which I think is what it is. In that case, time, like logic, is simply part of His nature."
 
Perhaps Dooyeweerd might be some help here. Time or a temporal scheme, I can't remember the exact phrase he used, is a creational element. So for us we experience things, all aspects of reality, in a temporal scheme (before, present, and after). Since this is creational (applying only to creation) it in no way applies to God. This is mind boggling and a great mystery but it is I think true. We cannot take that which is created and creaturely and apply it in the same way to God. Then again St. Augustine said it best when responded to the question of what was God doing before time? He basically said something like "preparing hell for those who asked that question".
 
The idea that God is merely a stasis and that He exists "outside of time" in the sense that "every moment is an eternal 'now' to Him" is patently unbiblical and incoherent.

Does the above quote disagree with any of the major confessions? If not, then what are you disputing? If God can count, "1, 2, 3" then he is acting inside of time since the temporal relationship of the three numbers matters. He is certainly not limited by time and can choose to act at any time he wants, knows the future as well as the past, etc., but I'm not exactly sure why the bolded portion of text is concerning to you. Perhaps it's just a lack of maturity on my part a misunderstanding of the implications. It might be helpful to know what you mean by outside of time?
 
The idea that God is merely a stasis and that He exists "outside of time" in the sense that "every moment is an eternal 'now' to Him" is patently unbiblical and incoherent.

Does the above quote disagree with any of the major confessions? If not, then what are you disputing? If God can count, "1, 2, 3" then he is acting inside of time since the temporal relationship of the three numbers matters. He is certainly not limited by time and can choose to act at any time he wants, knows the future as well as the past, etc., but I'm not exactly sure why the bolded portion of text is concerning to you. Perhaps it's just a lack of maturity on my part a misunderstanding of the implications. It might be helpful to know what you mean by outside of time?

I agree with the premise that God does indeed act within time but the point is that God does not experience time like we do. To "experience" something is to have a change of being. For instance, when the temperature drops we feel cold and thus change from being comfortable to uncomfortable. So any example that God (in His divine essence) could have an experience would be against His immutability plus God is not a temporal being for He is all there everywhere or atemporal to which He transcends space and time.

---------- Post added at 08:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 PM ----------

I once had a discussion on the matter with a fellow that may be of interest at a forum with a high concentration of open theists:

One on One: AMR and JCWR on the Temporality of God - Theology Forum | Christian Theology & More

AMR

WOW, great Job!
 
The idea that God is merely a stasis and that He exists "outside of time" in the sense that "every moment is an eternal 'now' to Him" is patently unbiblical and incoherent.

Does the above quote disagree with any of the major confessions? If not, then what are you disputing? If God can count, "1, 2, 3" then he is acting inside of time since the temporal relationship of the three numbers matters. He is certainly not limited by time and can choose to act at any time he wants, knows the future as well as the past, etc., but I'm not exactly sure why the bolded portion of text is concerning to you. Perhaps it's just a lack of maturity on my part a misunderstanding of the implications. It might be helpful to know what you mean by outside of time?

Never confuse what we experience as being what God experiences. We experience pain and everything else. What is this side of creation is experienced by us. We have a clear experience of time, although there is no philosophical or theological consensus on what time is, but we can't translate that experience to God.

---------- Post added at 08:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 PM ----------

I once had a discussion on the matter with a fellow that may be of interest at a forum with a high concentration of open theists:

One on One: AMR and JCWR on the Temporality of God - Theology Forum | Christian Theology & More


AMR

Thanks, I never realized the connection between the two.
 
I agree with the premise that God does indeed act within time but the point is that God does not experience time like we do. To "experience" something is to have a change of being. For instance, when the temperature drops we feel cold and thus change from being comfortable to uncomfortable. So any example that God (in His divine essence) could have an experience would be against His immutability plus God is not a temporal being for He is all there everywhere or atemporal to which He transcends space and time.

Thanks for clearing up the issue. I wasn't thinking about that aspect of what it would mean to be "in time".
 
Thanks, Patrick! Excellent work! I admire that the other gentleman was sincere in his approach to debate, and was more interested in discernment of truth rather than defense of ego. Such qualities are often rare when having these sorts of discussions with people.

Blessings!
 
How does this sound?

Before there was anything created God was simply the only "Thing" that existed? I hope we can agree with this. Now if He was the only "Thing" that existed where was He in relation to what? In other words, if He was the only thing in existence and there was absolutely nothing else, then He was essentially outside of time. He could not go anywhere because there would be no place to go. If so In my most humble opinion there was no time before creation. If this is so then God, being immutable, would not change in relation to anything He creates, which includes the relative distance between objects He creates and the time it takes to move from one object to another. Of course with God He is, all there everywhere, and this in my opinion totally blows out the idea He is in time.
 
How does this sound?

Before there was anything created God was simply the only "Thing" that existed? I hope we can agree with this.

Not really, since to say that God existed before something is to plot him somewhere along the timeline. I think the only reasonably approximate way to say it is that there was never a time when God did not exist.
 
How does this sound?

Before there was anything created God was simply the only "Thing" that existed? I hope we can agree with this.

Not really, since to say that God existed before something is to plot him somewhere along the timeline. I think the only reasonably approximate way to say it is that there was never a time when God did not exist.

I should have put "before" in quotation marks to approximate such. Though the before does assume that God existed even "before" time.
 
This is how I think about it:

Time is essentially a measuring stick. We could equally ask "Does God exist outside of meters?" or "Does God exist outside of gallons or liquid ounces?" Whereas meters measure distance and gallons volume, time measures rates of change.

To prove God exists outside of time we can rest on two strong arguments and a third argument.

1. God is immutable. Therefore he has no rate of change.

2. God is unique. He exists differently than all other things exist. Time exists with all other things. Therefore God exists outside of time.

3. Genesis 1 tells us that in the beginning, God created. Therefore, the measure "beginning" requires the "pre"-existence of God.

If we wanted to be scientific, it is accepted (at least for now) that time and space are united. God created space, therefore God created time. Therefore God is outside of time. This is another way of combining 2 and 3.

How to address those who disagree - look to Christ:

Since God acts within time, since he is humble, and since he has chosen to unite himself to human nature, it is appropriate to speak of God in terms of time when our tiny minds cannot find any other words to express our meaning (such as the use of "pre-existence" in argument 3). God is, indeed, "not in stasis". Even if we cannot fully fathom his existence (ie we cannot fully fathom how he is both outside of time, yet not in stasis), he has proven that he is a God who is involved, acts, and speaks - the climax of this being the incarnation of the Son in Jesus Christ.

Another way to address those who disagree: Ask them this question:

Because God creates material substances like dirt, does that mean God is not somehow outside of dirt? Then why would we try to assert he isn't outside of time? If God can act within the created order, yet remain distinct from it, then he can certainly act within time, yet remain distinct from it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top