How To Treat Animals

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Ryan&Amber2013

Puritan Board Junior
So killing animals for food is fine so long as you don't enjoy it. Gotcha.

Wipe those smiles off your faces, you hunters and anglers.

But killing farmed animals is fine if we kill them instantly and while grieving.
I guess I'm missing what could be enjoyable about killing an animal. Shouldn't it be a sober, reverent, almost somber thing when done, knowing that that animal is only suffering and dying because our sin? Death is not only a horrible thing for humans, animals know the horror of it as well, and sadly they have no hope of eternity to bring them joy - just the fear and pain of the here and now.

For those of you who can easily kill any animal with no sense of mercy, pity, love, reverence, care, respect, etc, how do you expect God to treat you who has complete authority over you? Would you be satisfied with God if He treated you the same way you treat creatures under your dominion? Would you be satisfied with God if he just crushed us with no thought or care just because we were in His way, or because we were a nuisance to Him? I hope we all have a sense of treating every creature the same way we expect God to treat us.
 

Taylor

Puritan Board Senior
For those of you who can easily kill any animal with no sense of mercy, pity, love, reverence, care, respect, etc, how do you expect God to treat you who has complete authority over you? Would you be satisfied with God if He treated you the same way you treat creatures under your dominion? Would you be satisfied with God if he just crushed us with no thought or care just because we were in His way, or because we were a nuisance to Him? I hope we all have a sense of treating every creature the same way we expect God to treat us.

These are indeed some sobering thoughts, ones concerning which I have regrettably given little time. I now will need to chew on this thread a little. Thanks for provoking some good reflection in me, brother.
 

Tom Hart

Puritan Board Senior
Proper, humane treatment of animals is good. Of course we should not kill or cause pain where it is not necessary. But this author, John Angell James, goes much too far, calling very ordinary activities "unchristian". It's not helpful to the discussion.

In many parts of the world, animals are treated very badly. I'm told that around here dogs are strung up and then beaten to death before being made into stew. They say it gets the blood flowing into the meat, making it more delicious, yet I cannot understand how a person could do something so heartless. Fortunately the practice is dying out as people (under Western influence) are coming to understand concepts of animal cruelty. In my view, cases like this are legitimate animal cruelty issues.

But this kind of over-the-top rhetoric against hunting and fishing does little to advance actual protection of animals.
 

Grant

Puritan Board Senior
For those of you who can easily kill any animal with no sense of mercy, pity, love, reverence, care, respect, etc,
Ryan,

I don’t think anyone on this thread is advocating that we (hunters/fishers) are going around killing animals without having any of the above emotions ever.

However, do you honestly experience all those emotions when you slap the mosquito on your neck? When I put ant poison out in my yard to protect my daughters.... we do not have a funeral for the ants. I am not saying that to be cheeky. Seriously we are all obligated to care for God’s creation, but we must have reason and try to be logical. And each cell of God’s creation lives for a purpose. Every time you disinfect your kitchen counter tops you are literally killing (potentially) hundreds of thousands of Living Bacteria. How many insects do you kill with your car everyday... do you mourn each one?

You can’t pick and choose what living organism you feel we should mourn. Try to be logically consistent. As one who had to put a childhood dog DOWN this week, I do not say any of this lightly (It was very tough).
 

Tom Hart

Puritan Board Senior
I guess I'm missing what could be enjoyable about killing an animal. Shouldn't it be a sober, reverent, almost somber thing when done, knowing that that animal is only suffering and dying because our sin? Death is not only a horrible thing for humans, animals know the horror of it as well, and sadly they have no hope of eternity to bring them joy - just the fear and pain of the here and now.

Is killing an animal enjoyable? Not unless you're a sadist. But if you're feeding yourself and your family, it is a good and necessary thing. Hunters and fishermen are not monsters because they hunt and fish.

I have never hunted, but, like most people, I love meat. I also recognize that meat includes nutrients that my body needs. I thank God for what he provides, and I teach my son that his food doesn't all come from the soil.

Death is not a pretty thing, but it is a necessary thing. God permits us to eat food and wear leather, and we should give thanks.

For those of you who can easily kill any animal with no sense of mercy, pity, love, reverence, care, respect, etc, how do you expect God to treat you who has complete authority over you? Would you be satisfied with God if He treated you the same way you treat creatures under your dominion? Would you be satisfied with God if he just crushed us with no thought or care just because we were in His way, or because we were a nuisance to Him? I hope we all have a sense of treating every creature the same way we expect God to treat us.

"No sense of mercy, pity, love, reverence, care, respect"? What exactly do you think we are, crocodiles? (I say "we" as a person who enjoys eating animals.)

I don't know if I should even reply to your hypotheticals.

But, no, we don't have to treat all creatures as we would want God to treat us.
 

Ryan&Amber2013

Puritan Board Junior
Ryan,

I don’t think anyone on this thread is advocating that we (hunters/fishers) are going around killing animals without having any of the above emotions ever.

However, do you honestly experience all those emotions when you slap the mosquito on your neck? When I put ant poison out in my yard to protect my daughters.... we do not have a funeral for the ants. I am not saying that to be cheeky. Seriously we are all obligated to care for God’s creation, but we must have reason and try to be logical. And each cell of God’s creation lives for a purpose. Every time you disinfect your kitchen counter tops you are literally killing (potentially) hundreds of thousands of Living Bacteria. How many insects do you kill with your car everyday... do you mourn each one?

You can’t pick and choose what living organism you feel we should mourn. Try to be logically consistent. As one who had to put a childhood dog DOWN this week, I do not say any of this lightly (It was very tough).
Thanks for the reply brother. I'm just advocating for respect, reverence, and care for the lives under us. Of course we have to draw the line somewhere, but I am only speaking of animals which have a sense of awareness and pain. Honestly, when there is a wasp nest growing on our back porch where our son plays, it is not a careless thing for me to spray the nest and kill the wasps. I'll actually speak to God and let Him know I am sorry for this is happening, knowing that these creatures are innocent and they are about to die by me, ultimately because of my rebellion against God. I would never say it's wrong to hunt or fish, but I personally would have to make those distinctions between killing for pleasure and killing with a sense of sorrow for the sake of food. Remember, that animal has a life, a family, and it's own pleasures and enjoyments in life that we are taking it away from.

If I were to shoot a deer, I would do it prayerfully, with respect, soberness, and a sense of pain in my own heart, not in a way that is flippant and careless. I would then eat it and make use of it, or else it wouldn't be shot at all. Does this make sense brother Grant?
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
So killing animals for food is fine so long as you don't enjoy it. Gotcha.

Wipe those smiles off your faces, you hunters and anglers.

But killing farmed animals is fine if we kill them instantly and while grieving.

No one is saying this.
 

Ryan&Amber2013

Puritan Board Junior
Is killing an animal enjoyable? Not unless you're a sadist. But if you're feeding yourself and your family, it is a good and necessary thing. Hunters and fishermen are not monsters because they hunt and fish.

I have never hunted, but, like most people, I love meat. I also recognize that meat includes nutrients that my body needs. I thank God for what he provides, and I teach my son that his food doesn't all come from the soil.

Death is not a pretty thing, but it is a necessary thing. God permits us to eat food and wear leather, and we should give thanks.



"No sense of mercy, pity, love, reverence, care, respect"? What exactly do you think we are, crocodiles? (I say "we" as a person who enjoys eating animals.)

I don't know if I should even reply to your hypotheticals.

But, no, we don't have to treat all creatures as we would want God to treat us.
Thank you for your reply Tom. It's always good to see your perspective.
 

Grant

Puritan Board Senior
Thanks for the reply brother. I'm just advocating for respect, reverence, and care for the lives under us. Of course we have to draw the line somewhere, but I am only speaking of animals which have a sense of awareness and pain. Honestly, when there is a wasp nest growing on our back porch where our son plays, it is not a careless thing for me to spray the nest and kill the wasps. I'll actually speak to God and let Him know I am sorry for this is happening, knowing that these creatures are innocent and they are about to die by me, ultimately because of my rebellion against God. I would never say it's wrong to hunt or fish, but I personally would have to make those distinctions between killing for pleasure and killing with a sense of sorrow for the sake of food. Remember, that animal has a life, a family, and it's own pleasures and enjoyments in life that we are taking it away from.

If I were to shoot a deer, I would do it prayerfully, with respect, soberness, and a sense of pain in my own heart, not in a way that is flippant and careless. I would then eat it and make use of it, or else it wouldn't be shot at all. Does this make sense brother Grant?
Ryan

That makes perfect since my friend. My first successful deer hunt was very sobering for me. I killed my first deer and had to clean and eat it. This gave me all the more respect for the animal.

At the same time, while the animals should be respected, Christian Men and women can rightly enjoy the pracrice of recreational & commercial hunting/fishing without it involving sin and cruelty.
 

Tom Hart

Puritan Board Senior
Honestly, when there is a wasp nest growing on our back porch where our son plays, it is not a careless thing for me to spray the nest and kill the wasps. I'll actually speak to God and let Him know I am sorry for this is happening, knowing that these creatures are innocent and they are about to die by me, ultimately because of my rebellion against God.

You are without doubt more sensitive than I am. I killed a cockroach this morning without mercy, pity or regret. (Ever since the new neighbours moved in we've been seeing cockroaches now and then. Nasty things.)

I would caution that excessive senitivity can cause one to call things sin where there is no sin.
 

Stephen L Smith

Administrator
Staff member
The general principle should be Prov 12:10 "The righteous cares about his animal’s health, but even the merciful acts of the wicked are cruel" [CSB].
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
I think some of the commenters should go back and reread what is in the OP. The OP states that it's ok to kill animals for food or for protection. Yet many of you are saying, "Well, I think it's fine to kill animals to eat or to protect oneself". The point is being completely missed by some of you guys. The point is is if you take delight (delight as in feeling great that you just killed an animal...you know like a serial killer before he starts on humans) in killing animals, there's something morally and mentally wrong with you. No one is saying you have to have a downcast face while hunting and fishing. No one is saying you can't be enjoying your time while hunting or fishing. SMH
 

Pergamum

Ordinary Guy (TM)
We are under no moral obligation to be sad over a deer we shoot or a squirrel or rabbit. We can be glad for a good shot. And for good meat. There is no obligatory grieving over it's death. It has served it's purpose.

I would say, even high-five your brother and tell him great job if he gets a good clean shot from a far distance.

There is nothing morally or mentally wrong with pleasure over the hunt. Hunters nowadays don't need that deer, they are not starving. They hunt because it is fun.

And that is okay.
 

Grant

Puritan Board Senior
We are under no moral obligation to be sad over a deer we shoot or a squirrel or rabbit. We can be glad for a good shot. And for good meat. There is no obligatory grieving over it's death. It has served it's purpose.

I would say, even high-five your brother and tell him great job if he gets a good clean shot from a far distance.

There is nothing morally or mentally wrong with pleasure over the hunt. Hunters nowadays don't need that deer, they are not starving. They hunt because it is fun.

And that is okay.
:cheers2:
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
I've always wondered about Jesus sending the demons into the pigs and then causing those pigs to run to their deaths. He didn't have to send them into the pigs. Could he have sent them straight to Tartarus/hell/chains of darkness? Why use pigs? Why have the pigs run off and die? Why ruin the local economy?

If those pigs held on just a few more years they would have been declared free to be eaten - still not a great fate for the pigs. Was Jesus so zealous for OT ceremonial law that he probably bankrupted some poor farmer for having a non-kosher farm?

King David killed animals protecting his sheep, but is not a lion/bear just as important or more important than a simple sheep? Nowadays King David would be extremely guilty because the animals he killed are endangered but there are plenty of sheep in the world.

And I assume King David did not eat those animals that he killed.

I suppose the alternative is Jainism. Some of those guys sweep the ground in front of them so as not to kill any bugs as they walk. If the whole world became Jains, there be a lot loss violence I would suppose.

Also, under your assumptions Jains appear more gentle than Jesus towards animals because Jesus ate fish and lamb.

I sure wouldn't want a Jain to rid my house of mice or even my head of lice, though, or to find ways to kill mosquitos more effectively.

Jesus sent the demons into those pigs as a judgment on those people. Let's look at it another way. If you or I went and killed those same pigs depriving those people of their source of food, it would be a sin. We know that Jesus never sinned. He didn't do it just to see the pigs die for some type of entertainment. In fact, he didn't do it to judge the pigs or to give the demons a place to live. He did it for a righteous reason. So you can't compare what he did with what sinful man does. David killed the lion and bear for protection which is one reason the OP gives for killing animals.
 

SolaScriptura

Puritanboard Brimstone
It is illegitimate to suggest or infer that people should engage in an activity such as killing and have no emotional connection with the activity, or that the only acceptable emotion is remorse. There are creatures that God has made, and I don’t know why He made them, but from every human vantage point they are absolute pests, and so I will happily kill every single one of them that I can. Such as mosquitoes. It’s OK for people to find *pleasure* in engaging in hunting activities, to include making the kill. There is something remarkably primal about the thrill of the hunt culminating in taking a life, and then reaching into its body to pull out it’s entrails. (As an aside, it’s OK, too, for snipers to enjoy their jobs.)
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
You might want to reread some of the comments. You youself said catch-and-release is wrong.

It is wrong to go fishing for entertainment reasons only and not for the gathering of food. I understand there are people who do not realize that all living creatures experience pain and so they do this out of ignorance and not for some delight of torturing a fish or worm. But once they've been educated I would hope they would change their habits. We don't put some meat on a hook to catch a dog, take the hook out of his mouth and let me run off and wait around to catch another dog in the same manner. Why don't we? Because we know it is painful to a dog because he is able to verbalize pain. Just because fish and worms can't verbalize pain doesn't mean they don't. Science tells they do. Now, if you were starving and had no other food except for a dog and the only way you could catch him is by putting some food on a hook which he took, then I would say yes do it. But you wouldn't be doing that for entertainment you would be doing it to feed yourself. The OP is urging people not to place undo pain upon creatures that isn't needed. That's all he's saying.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
It is illegitimate to suggest or infer that people should engage in an activity such as killing and have no emotional connection with the activity, or that the only acceptable emotion is remorse. There are creatures that God has made, and I don’t know why He made them, but from every human vantage point they are absolute pests, and so I will happily kill every single one of them that I can. Such as mosquitoes. It’s OK for people to find *pleasure* in engaging in hunting activities, to include making the kill. There is something remarkably primal about the thrill of the hunt culminating in taking a life, and then reaching into its body to pull out it’s entrails. (As an aside, it’s OK, too, for snipers to enjoy their jobs.)

Well, there you have it. Remind me never to accidentally travel to the state you live in if you own a gun unless I'm tired of living.

No one is saying you can't kill mosquitoes or other pests they carry diseases which can impact your wellbeing (protection of yourself which is in the OP). Wow, I feel like I'm talking to the alt left who throw up all these "arguments" of objections which the OP states are not objections. No one is reading the OP.
 

SolaScriptura

Puritanboard Brimstone
Well, there you have it. Remind me never to accidentally travel to the state you live in if you own a gun unless I'm tired of living.

No one is saying you can't kill mosquitoes or other pests they carry diseases which can impact your wellbeing (protection of yourself which is in the OP). Wow, I feel like I'm talking to the alt left who throw up all these "arguments" of objections which the OP states are not objections. No one is reading the OP.

We read the OP, at least I did. I just completely disagree with it. There’s a whole bunch of inferring that is clearly demonstrated to be false by the actions of those in Scripture.
It is OK to enjoy killing animals for food, for sport, for pest management, or for population control, or simply because they came into your house or because they eat your flowers. Just because animals experience pain does not mean that they have an inherent right to life. Let me be clear: the only living thing on this planet that has an inherent right to life are human beings, because we alone are God’s image. This is why it is OK to destroy a forest for a housing development without regard to the breeding habitat of birds. This is why it is OK to sport fish. This is why it is OK to run a hook through worm to feed to a fish that we don’t intend to keep.

In my opinion, the fundamental theological issue is the misappropriation of biblical anthropology.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
We read the OP, at least I did. I just completely disagree with it. There’s a whole bunch of inferring that is clearly demonstrated to be false by the actions of those in Scripture.
It is OK to enjoy killing animals for food, for sport, for pest management, or for population control, or simply because they came into your house or because they eat your flowers. Just because animals experience pain does not mean that they have an inherent right to life. Let me be clear: the only living thing on this planet that has an inherent right to life are human beings, because we alone are God’s image. This is why it is OK to destroy a forest for a housing development without regard to the breeding habitat of birds. This is why it is OK to sport fish. This is why it is OK to run a hook through worm to feed to a fish that we don’t intend to keep.

In my opinion, the fundamental theological issue is the misappropriation of biblical anthropology.

I have no doubt whatsoever that you feel his assertions have fundamental theological issues when you base your own on conflicting beliefs. You say that only humans have the absolute right to life (we all would agree to that in so far as that human isn’t trying to kill me) yet you also say that it’s ok for snipers to enjoy their job. It’s ok for snipers to know they are in the right for protecting others, but it’s not ok for them to enjoy their job since every human is made in the image of God. The article was written for us to look at our hearts. If you enjoy causing pain to any living creature, that is a sign of the fallen nature. God didn’t create living things to be killed. Death is a consequence of the fall. After the flood God gave us animals to eat, but with his original command of being good stewards. Your statement of enjoying ripping out their guts is disturbing. And frankly I would be nervous to be around a person who enjoys that and also tells snipers to enjoy their job.
 

ZackF

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I find my views on this more in line with Ben's and Hart's. There is a serial killer in training kind of torturous cruelty that I don't approve of. I can't think of any sportsman that would approve of that.

There is a country that pays for abortions via socialized medicine that is also banning boiling live lobsters and banning keeping them on ice. These kinds of disjointed priorities will spread. While I don't accuse the OP of this at all, I think the slow growing animal rights 'progress' is a dead end for humanity.
 
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