How Women CEOs & Women in Similar Roles are Ruining the Workplace

[Wannabee]

The comments on a widow leave out the fact that, until 60, they are to remarry. Ideally all women will fall under and promote one head. The only ones that the church is supposed to support are the older ones who have proven and live out their godliness (1 Tim 5:15). And even then it's only the ones who don't have families to take care of them.

I don’t want to get into a discussion about a woman's duties at home, all I am saying here is that your argument that a working woman is under another head in a sinful way does not seem to me to work.

I understand your concerns Mark. First, your first question really has no bearing. We all work for someone, either directly or indirectly. And we are are to promote whoever is in authority over us. God has absolute authority over us, so we promote Him first. As a man our employer generally has authority over us, so we promote him. If we're in the military the same principle applies. Within the church it is the leadership. For women, they have a head over them, their fathers or husbands.
There are instances when a woman must do what she must to survive (Ruth was mentioned - but she really was working under her closest head/kinsman). I did not say it was a sin for a woman to work under a man that is not her head. I said that, ideally, she shouldn't do it. And I would say it's usually a symptom of a deeper issue. We have one couple in our church where the husband is deaf and has a hard time holding down a job. The wife works steadily. It's a very difficult situation, and far from ideal. But it's also not one with a solution readily available.
It's also evident that testoserone levels rise in women in the workplace. They become more aggressive. They become more assertive. And most women who are keepers of the home do not get caught up in affairs. The overwhelming majority of women involved in adultery have workplace relationships.
-2 out of 3 women and 3 out of 4 men admit they have sexual thoughts about co-workers.
-86% of men and 81% of women admit they routinely flirt with the opposite sex.
-75% of men and 65% of women admit to having sex with people they work with.

Women who are employed full-time outside the home are more likely to have an affair than full-time homemakers. Travis and Sadd reported that 47% of wives who were employed full-time and 27% of full-time homemakers had been involved in an affair before they were 40 years old.
New Woman magazine found that 57% of employed wives who had an affair met their lover at work.

Here's an interesting article - Can a woman ever do work outside the home?


Consider also the OT teaching of vows.
Numbers 30:3-15
3“Or if a woman makes a vow to the Lord, and binds herself by some agreement while in her father’s house in her youth, 4and her father hears her vow and the agreement by which she has bound herself, and her father holds his peace, then all her vows shall stand, and every agreement with which she has bound herself shall stand. 5But if her father overrules her on the day that he hears, then none of her vows nor her agreements by which she has bound herself shall stand; and the Lord will release her, because her father overruled her.
6“If indeed she takes a husband, while bound by her vows or by a rash utterance from her lips by which she bound herself, 7and her husband hears it, and makes no response to her on the day that he hears, then her vows shall stand, and her agreements by which she bound herself shall stand. 8But if her husband overrules her on the day that he hears it, he shall make void her vow which she took and what she uttered with her lips, by which she bound herself, and the Lord will release her.
9“Also any vow of a widow or a divorced woman, by which she has bound herself, shall stand against her.
10“If she vowed in her husband’s house, or bound herself by an agreement with an oath, 11and her husband heard it, and made no response to her and did not overrule her, then all her vows shall stand, and every agreement by which she bound herself shall stand. 12But if her husband truly made them void on the day he heard them, then whatever proceeded from her lips concerning her vows or concerning the agreement binding her, it shall not stand; her husband has made them void, and the Lord will release her. 13Every vow and every binding oath to afflict her soul, her husband may confirm it, or her husband may make it void. 14Now if her husband makes no response whatever to her from day to day, then he confirms all her vows or all the agreements that bind her; he confirms them, because he made no response to her on the day that he heard them. 15But if he does make them void after he has heard them, then he shall bear her guilt.”


And before we think that "youth" is below some age around 20 we must consider that Paul told Timothy to not let them dispise your youth when Timothy was about 40. I know that makes me feel better.

 

[Wannabee]

Calvin and Knox on the Doctrine of Male Headship

John Calvin on Women Rejoicing in Their Role as Homemakers

The Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy

The Feminization of the Family

Biblical Patriarchy and the Doctrine of Federal Representation

Called to the Home — Called to Ruleby Melissa Keen

Exegetical Defense of the Woman as Keeper At Home

The Feminism of the Mothers is the Destruction of the Daughtersby Sarah Zes

“You Don’t Know Feminism”by Mrs. M.L. Chancey

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

I disagree slightly with the OP. Don't get me wrong, I'm very much anti-feminism and do believe a woman's primary calling is to be a wife and mother, and to care for her family. But I don't think it's necessarily wrong for a woman to work or even be a CEO of a company. There are multiple Biblical examples of Godly women who own and operate their own businesses, such as Lydia after she was converted in Acts 16. And the Proverbs 31 describes the "excellent wife" as a hard worker and industrious businesswoman.

Please don't misunderstand, I agree with the general sentiment of JBaldwin's post (and most others in this thread). However, I don't agree that it's wrong for a woman to work and be in leadership in business, so long as she doesn't neglect her primary responsiblity to her family.

 

[ModernPuritan?]

But then isnt it highly probable that for a wife to be a ceo would cause her to neglect her bigger priorities as a wife?

 

[servantofmosthigh]

Dr. Al Mohler also talked about this issue in one of his radio programs a few months ago, specifically addressing if America is ready for a female President. And Dr. Mohler said that if Margaret Thatcher was alive today, was an American citizen, and was running for President of the U.S., he'd vote for her because he knows where she stands politically.

Dr. Mohler draws a line between male leadership in the church and in the home, versus secular leadership in the workforce. And what I think Dr. Mohler is saying is that the fight for male leadership must be first fought in our own homes and in our own churches, and nevermind about the secular workforce because they're part of the fallen world. At least, our homes and our churches can reflect the redeemed ones of Christ.

 

[JBaldwin]

I disagree slightly with the OP. Don't get me wrong, I'm very much anti-feminism and do believe a woman's primary calling is to be a wife and mother, and to care for her family. But I don't think it's necessarily wrong for a woman to work or even be a CEO of a company. There are multiple Biblical examples of Godly women who own and operate their own businesses, such as Lydia after she was converted in Acts 16. And the Proverbs 31 describes the "excellent wife" as a hard worker and industrious businesswoman.

Please don't misunderstand, I agree with the general sentiment of JBaldwin's post (and most others in this thread). However, I don't agree that it's wrong for a woman to work and be in leadership in business, so long as she doesn't neglect her primary responsiblity to her family.

If you read my post carefully, you will see that we agree. I was very careful to add "there are a few rare occasions". I also pointed out that there are times when women should and can work. I don't believe in the total absence of women from the workforce, but I think it should be more rare than it is. I also think that women should not encouraged to take high level leadership roles. It usually spells disaster for a company.

There are many roles in the workforce that are much more well suited to women than men. Also, as I pointed out in the OP, there are situations were women have to support themselves.

 

[satz]

Joe, thank you for your reply.

The comments on a widow leave out the fact that, until 60, they are to remarry. Ideally all women will fall under and promote one head. The only ones that the church is supposed to support are the older ones who have proven and live out their godliness (1 Tim 5:15). And even then it's only the ones who don't have families to take care of them.

1 Corinthians 7 would seem to indicate that a widowed woman is free to either remarry or stay as she is at her liberty. When Paul said in 1 Tim 5:14 that he wanted younger women to remarry, he was speaking of remarrying as opposed to, being put on the financial support of the church and ending up in idleness. I see no reason he meant it as absolute rule for younger widows.

You said : “Ideally all women will fall under and promote one head”.

I would like to see the biblical basis for the ‘one head’ part of that statement. In your example you just said that a man may have up to three heads over him – God, his employer and the church leadership. But there is no conflict. As I said before, women are always under the authority of the government, and their church leadership, as well as the father/husband. Whether or not you consider the former two to be ‘heads’ she is still under their authority. So I see no bible basis for saying it is either wrong, or not ideal for a woman to be under more than one authority at the same time.

Also, I am curious what are the verses that say a woman is always to be under a head? For instance, that a widow or a woman whose parents die must come under another head. I am not necessarily saying I disagree, but I would like to see the verses to support the point.

I understand your concerns Mark. First, your first question really has no bearing. We all work for someone, either directly or indirectly. And we are are to promote whoever is in authority over us. God has absolute authority over us, so we promote Him first. As a man our employer generally has authority over us, so we promote him. If we're in the military the same principle applies. Within the church it is the leadership. For women, they have a head over them, their fathers or husbands.
There are instances when a woman must do what she must to survive (Ruth was mentioned - but she really was working under her closest head/kinsman). I did not say it was a sin for a woman to work under a man that is not her head. I said that, ideally, she shouldn't do it. And I would say it's usually a symptom of a deeper issue. We have one couple in our church where the husband is deaf and has a hard time holding down a job. The wife works steadily. It's a very difficult situation, and far from ideal. But it's also not one with a solution readily available.

As I mentioned above, you admit that for a man to have multiple ‘heads’ – God, boss, and pastor is not wrong. Where is the bible basis for saying it is wrong for a woman to have the same? There may be a definite priority in authority relationships, but I see no biblical evidence that it is wrong for a woman to be in more than one authority relationship.

The husband of a woman is indeed her head, and she is to promote him. Again, I see no bible basis to say this is incompatible with serving a master in the workplace. A man does two things in his work – he promotes his master’s interests, but he is also working for himself, to provide for his family with the pay he brings home. I fail to see how it is wrong for a woman to serve her employer’s interests, but also be primarily serving her family through the income she earns and brings into the family estate.

How would you address the issue of the maidservants we see all throughout the bible? Who was their head?

It's also evident that testoserone levels rise in women in the workplace. They become more aggressive. They become more assertive. And most women who are keepers of the home do not get caught up in affairs. The overwhelming majority of women involved in adultery have workplace relationships.

These statistics are meaningless unless they somehow represent the situation amongst zealous christian couples. Drinking alcohol may statistically speaking increase your chances of getting drunk, but that is not a biblical argument against it.

Consider also the OT teaching of vows.
Numbers 30:3-15
3“Or if a woman makes a vow to the Lord, and binds herself by some agreement while in her father’s house in her youth, 4and her father hears her vow and the agreement by which she has bound herself, and her father holds his peace, then all her vows shall stand, and every agreement with which she has bound herself shall stand. 5But if her father overrules her on the day that he hears, then none of her vows nor her agreements by which she has bound herself shall stand; and the Lord will release her, because her father overruled her.
6“If indeed she takes a husband, while bound by her vows or by a rash utterance from her lips by which she bound herself, 7and her husband hears it, and makes no response to her on the day that he hears, then her vows shall stand, and her agreements by which she bound herself shall stand. 8But if her husband overrules her on the day that he hears it, he shall make void her vow which she took and what she uttered with her lips, by which she bound herself, and the Lord will release her.
9“Also any vow of a widow or a divorced woman, by which she has bound herself, shall stand against her.
10“If she vowed in her husband’s house, or bound herself by an agreement with an oath, 11and her husband heard it, and made no response to her and did not overrule her, then all her vows shall stand, and every agreement by which she bound herself shall stand. 12But if her husband truly made them void on the day he heard them, then whatever proceeded from her lips concerning her vows or concerning the agreement binding her, it shall not stand; her husband has made them void, and the Lord will release her. 13Every vow and every binding oath to afflict her soul, her husband may confirm it, or her husband may make it void. 14Now if her husband makes no response whatever to her from day to day, then he confirms all her vows or all the agreements that bind her; he confirms them, because he made no response to her on the day that he heard them. 15But if he does make them void after he has heard them, then he shall bear her guilt.”

I do not see how these verses change address the situation being discussed. It shows a husband or father has absolute authority over a woman’s ability to make vows, but how does that affect whether she many enter into an employment relationship? The verses say the husband as the right to overrule her vows, it does not remove from women the ability to make vows of her own accord.

Also, if anything, I would think these verse provide the solution to the dilemma you raise about a woman being conflicted after being under two ‘heads’ if she enters the workplace.
The husband may overrule her vows, but he may also stay silent and confirm her vows, if he so chooses and allows. A husband should consider the amount of time and energy he can allow his wife to spend away from the home and at work, as well as the kind of work and co-workers and any dangers, spiritual or otherwise that such work may place the wife in, and then make a decision on if he will allow his wife to work a particular job, and if so how many hours.

And before we think that "youth" is below some age around 20 we must consider that Paul told Timothy to not let them dispise your youth when Timothy was about 40. I know that makes me feel better.

 

[JBaldwin]

Here is a quote by the Earl of Lytton (1831-1891) that says well what I mean by "supportive"

"It is a wonderful advantage to a man, in every pursuit or avocation, to secure an adviser in a sensible woman. In woman there is at once a subtile delicacy of tact and a plain soundness of judgment which are rarely combined to an equal degree in man.

A woman, if she be really your friend, will have a sensitive regard for your character, honor, repute. She will seldom counsel you to do a shabby thing; for a woman friend always desires to be proud of you."

 

[Wannabee]

Good points Mark; especially the last paragraph. If you can have your wife work in an environment where you have that much oversight of her circumstances, then more power to you. Generally speaking her schedule is dictated by her "boss," as are her assignments and coworkers. There are obvious differences. Also consider that, generally speaking, the family was to promote the family business, thus the patriarch. If she can start up a something to gain more income for the family, then that's wonderful. Often women will train their children in business endeavors that help supply for the family. I don't think we're that far from one another in our understanding, except that I would take a firmer position than what you seem to be espousing. Perhaps it's more splitting hairs. Please understand that I know the world is not ideal. It's full of us... What I have put forward is a patriarchal model that lines up with Scripture. It is what we should aspire to. But when a woman is left with children (and perhaps a disabled husband) to feed and no support, she has to do what she has to do until/unless God provides a head or other means. Some of the articles I linked are pretty long. Some of the content is a bit OTT. But they will make you think. If you get a chance to read them I'd like to hear your thoughts.

And don't be to quick to set stats aside. They say something and should be considered. Yes, a godly wife and husband can overcome any stats by the power of Christ. But, in considering what is ideal and how you would advise people, these things must be considered. They are symptoms of an underlying problem. I once had the stats for Christian infidelity. It was even more lopsided, with women who were guilty overwhelmingly relating to work relationships. I wish I could find them. Perhaps someone with more internet savvy can do it. Other factors have to be considered as well, such as the propensity for women to see her income as "my money"; a propensity to see their husbands as somehow less of a man because he needs her help; a propensity for all of us to admire someone we are working with/for. These influences are erased if she is focused on the home. Getting back to the original proposal, it would be amazing indeed for a CEO to be an effective keeper of the home. I know there are some women who can handle all these things. But I think I could count the number of them that I've known on one hand.

I would recommend you read through 1 Timothy 5 again though. I would disagree with you on that point. This obviously doesn't preclude her working. It simply lays out her responsibilities. The head that a widow falls under, if she has no kinsman, would be the church leadership. That is what I perceive Paul to be asserting here.

I'd also add that the challenge is generally a non-issue where men are men and embrace the role God has given them.

 

[Gryphonette]

Pergamum asked: "How many women moderators do we have on the PB any way?"

[sweetly] Just enough.