How would you handle a gay brother-in-law?

[Amazing Grace]

...good question! I have a thought but want Fred or someone more qualified than I to answer first.

Let's hear it. In case fred is busy for a week or so... Unless he is the barometer of homosexual answers.

I guess the problem I have is this. If the blood of Christ covers all sin, homosexuality must be covered. We sin until the day we die. So is homosexuality an exception to the rule? For instance, I sin daily, this is no false humility statement, Everything we do is tainted with sin, yet Christ bot's them out of the Father's site. We repent in hope daily, at least I do. And I am assured of my salvation even in this wretched body I have. So how is homosexuality any different if the struggle is done with repentance? I struggle with a lustful eye. I commit adultery a lot by looking at an attractive female with lust. I murder according to Christ becasue I have aught against brethren at times. I repent..etc etc etc. At times my life is like the book of judges. But even when I cant even see my faith, I am assured God sees the blood, therefore am forgiven for His sake and realy not mine at all. Just as Israel put the blood on the outside of the door and could not see it, God said "WHEN I SEE IT"...

 

[ReformedWretch]

Well, my humble opinion is that homosexuality (based on Fred's points found in scripture) is a "sign" that you may be pretty far gone. In the case of homosexual temptation but non action, I would still see it as a serious "sign" or "warning" of where you are spiritually.

Notice that Paul moves in a direct line from idolatry/rejection of God (a perversion of reality) --> manifestation in homosexual acts (a perversion of God's created order).

Notice also that it does not say that homosexuality itself per se is reprobation or damnable; rather it is evidence of the same, which should move us to even swifter repentance.

The same thought applies to a lesser degree. If one is tempted to lie with a man as he would lie with a woman, where is God in that man's life? Why would he be tempted by something the word tells us is, once practiced, a sign of reprobation?

 

[LadyFlynt]

Is homosexuality the only sign of reprobation?

 

[ReformedWretch]

I don't think so...just one glaring one in the Romans passage that we can clearly see and point out.

 

[Amazing Grace]

Is homosexuality the only sign of reprobation?

I am confused by this line of thinking Adam. I know LF asked this question, but it pertained to the thought I was having.

I do not think any behavior mentioned in 1 Cor 6 can be a sign of reproabtion. Since all of those sins mentioned are covered by the blood of Christ.

Again, all manner of sin is forgiven, and yet we sin daily. I just do not understand how this plays out. I would hate to end up with a roman catholic thought that the best time to die is to drop dead right sfter going to confession.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Of course not, but we can certainly learn that some sins are indeed worse that others and bigger signs of reprobation than others.

 

[turmeric]

It seems like Romans 1 gives us a progression, from various levels of idolatry to various egregious sins. I know of people who have repented of homosexuality and are still tempted - i don't think these folks are reprobate, they've been converted and they resist the temptation, but it shows where they came from. Just my humble opinion.

 

[fredtgreco]

Paul is dealing with unrepentant and high-handed sin in Romans 1. Notice:

"men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error" and "Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them."

I think that the one given to homosexual temptation who grieves for it, and struggles against it is in a Romans 7 type of situation: "21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (And no, I don't want to argue against the correct and historical interpretation that Paul is here recounting his personal, regenerate experience.)

So I don't think we can place the same kind of "evidence" against the struggling believe that we can the unrepentant pagan. But if someone was caught in continual homosexuality, it would be a sign to examine one's repentance and faith. A change from regeneration includes a change of action, life and behavior. Peter makes that clear in 1 Peter 1:14 and 2:12 (for two examples). Notice how many times Peter refers to "way of life" or "conduct" (anastrophe).

And Paul himself is emphatic in 1 Cor. 6, after having described such sins, he says:

"11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God"

strongly implying that as a pattern of life, they are no longer bound to those sins.

 

[bookslover]

Bookslover,

I've been informed that I don't understand your whole situation (true, I can only go by what you have chosen to share). Apparently there was misunderstanding in one post I made. My attempt was not to name call. I used the term "like a..." to show how I believe such action would be taken by your daughter, just in having dealt with this in our own family.

(Correction: I was just informed that the mercy part was in permitting your daughter and her partner over to your home. This clarification helps immensely in trying to understand. In our situation the person was permitted, but not their partner. Thus, it helps in understanding why you separated yourself. However, since this came from a third party, there still might be misunderstanding and I would appreciate your explanation on this. I'm only seeing how it could be taken by your daughter, but you know her better in your situation).

I told my daughter that she is still welcome in our home. I didn't extend the invitation to her partner. Regardless, the partner almost always shows up, too. They are, unfortunately, inseparable. My daughter, to put it frankly, doesn't give a damn what I think, and feels that she is perfectly free to do whatever she feels like. (She's 21, by the way.) So, when they come over, I retreat to the other side of the house with our cat (who, of course, loves me unconditionally!). They sit chatting with my wife as if it's the most normal thing in the world.

It's interesting: in reading the responses, it seems that, generally speaking, the men are for standing with the doctrine, while the women - again, generally speaking - have the attitude "doctrine, smocktrine - it's relationships that count!" Which sort of illustrates the differences on this subject between me and my wife. My wife is a fine, solid Christian, but keeping relationships intact seems to trump (perhaps unconsciously on her part) what the Bible says at times, especially when (in this case) her own children are involved.

I'm happy to continue to be the bad guy here. Doesn't bother me at all because I know I'm upholding the Bible's position. In the long run, it's always better to be on God's side. If my daughter wants to hate me, there's not much I can do about that. Besides, I still have the cat!

 

[BJClark]

bookslover;

I told my daughter that she is still welcome in our home. I didn't extend the invitation to her partner. Regardless, the partner almost always shows up, too. They are, unfortunately, inseparable. My daughter, to put it frankly, doesn't give a damn what I think, and feels that she is perfectly free to do whatever she feels like. (She's 21, by the way.) So, when they come over, I retreat to the other side of the house with our cat (who, of course, loves me unconditionally!). They sit chatting with my wife as if it's the most normal thing in the world.

It's interesting: in reading the responses, it seems that, generally speaking, the men are for standing with the doctrine, while the women - again, generally speaking - have the attitude "doctrine, smocktrine - it's relationships that count!" Which sort of illustrates the differences on this subject between me and my wife. My wife is a fine, solid Christian, but keeping relationships intact seems to trump (perhaps unconsciously on her part) what the Bible says at times, especially when (in this case) her own children are involved.

I'm happy to continue to be the bad guy here. Doesn't bother me at all because I know I'm upholding the Bible's position. In the long run, it's always better to be on God's side. If my daughter wants to hate me, there's not much I can do about that. Besides, I still have the cat!

Please don't misunderstand what I have said...I'm not for relationships at any cost...

If you invite your daughter over, by all means invite your daughter over...it's your home, and you are free to invite who YOU desire into your home...if you do not want the 'friend' in your home, that is your decision and one your wife should respect...yes, it is her home too, however, as the spiritual head of the home, she should respect and submit in this area...if she desires to spend time with them together...she could certainly meet with them at their home or else where..

You could ask her to meet you for lunch, just the two of you...giving you an opportunity to talk alone, without the friend being there, and if she doesn't respect that, that is between her and God..because ultimately, that is who she answers to...all you can do is extend the invitation.

 

[LadyFlynt]

I told my daughter that she is still welcome in our home. I didn't extend the invitation to her partner. Regardless, the partner almost always shows up, too.

As BJ stated, it's your house, your rules apply. If you aren't enforcing the rules, but rather retreating (your words, not an accusation), then would that not bring more contempt from your daughter?

:shrug:

In our case, one of the relatives we dealt with was permitted over, when alone with the parents there would be occasional discussion to share the gospel with her, but her partner was banned from showing up. If she showed up with her partner, they were turned away. Granted, we saw less of her during this time, but it worked on her. Just as she was "unseparable" from her partner...she was emotionally "unseparable" from her mother. Forcing her to choose to separate occasionally if she wanted to see her mother caused loss of the "support system" she had in thumbing her nose at everyone during those visits. She eventually repented, left that life, started attending church, and eventually married. She is not the first relative we've had that has left that lifestyle and gone on to marry and have a normal life.

This is not trying to hold relationship over doctrine. This is simply laying ground rules and sticking to them. I believe doctrine would support both rejecting their behaviour and reaching out to them through appropriate means.



Again, I apologise that my comparison of an action was taken as an accusation that was never intended. Since the offense was to Richard, you have my apology for being rash and not considering how my words would be taken.

I will admit, I was taken aback by what appeared to be an attitude (of no one person in particular) that some sinners were worth reaching out to and others were worth only tossing to the wind based on the kind of sin. I would personally make that judgment based on their continued attitude, not the kind of sin. Homosexuality is acted upon for more reasons than just because a person is reprobate and wants to thumb their nose at God and idolise themselves as the militant types do. I've seen it acted upon because of early emotional and physical distress as well. Daughters that have had mothers with multiple marriages, been abused by men or seen too much abuse by men, and are still wanting a partnered relationship within the group that they are comfortable with, other women. Sons that have had absent fathers and again crave a relationship with the kind they were denied earlier in life. Daughters and Sons that were both molested. None of this excuses the behaviour...but if the root of the cause can be found to be something other than just pure rebellion, that person stands a possibility of being reached. Many times, it is these that will be the first to admit that it is a grievous sin and you can work from there. The other kind I have run into also...open rebellion, because bisexuality is popular and they want to have their "fun". These kind I've had to say, "I'm here if you need to seriously talk, but you are not welcome around my family nor will I participate in casual conversation with you while you are continuing in this sin" and then walk away.

 

[turmeric]

Thank God for cats! I think your wife needs to get on board with this, it is your house. Your daughter can come by herself, or not at all. It sounds like she's trying to make a point by constantly bringing the "girlfriend" over. I think your wife may not be getting this.

 

[BJClark]

LadyFlynt;

If you aren't enforcing the rules, but rather retreating (your words, not an accusation), then would that not bring more contempt from your daughter?

This is what I am having a difficult time understanding as well...and maybe even where his confusion is coming in regards to "relationships". It is not just your wife who is allowing her into your home, you are too, by not standing firm in enforcing your own rules...and instead making the choice to go hole up in the other room.

You have stated you do not want this 'friend' in your home...yet, your wife and your daughter both snub this and invite her in, all the while you say nothing...and go hide out sticking your head in the sand while she is there.

I would say it is not just your wife who wants a relationship at any cost, but you seem to want that as well, by not standing your ground in this..however, the relationship your wanting at any cost is not with your daughter in this case, but with your wife.

Speaking from a woman's persepctive, I want to see my husband stand firm for things HE says he wants and doesn't want..as do our kids...last year August, my daughter had invited a young man over one morning before they left for school, as they were going to walk to the bus stop together..My husband told the young man to WAIT out side..I got up and after my husband left for work, *I* invited the young man back in the house to wait..my husband got to work, turned around and came back home (he works 5 minutes from the house)..the young man was in the house, he got upset and told the young man.."I SAID WAIT OUTSIDE" at first I was both hurt and offended, that my husband would do this, because after all it's my home too, I'm an adult fully capable of making sure this young man doesn't try anything, and it's not like they were being left alone.

The girls started grumbling to me about it..even though I didn't agree with him, I just told the girls don't worry about it but just go along with his decision for now, and I would talk to him about it later. I was angry inside, I was fuming but as I was pouring myself a cup of coffee after the kids left for school, the Holy Spirit started working in ME, and I could hear that little voice speaking...

Why are you upset? he is the head of the home, you are to submit to him, not him to you. If he gives in to you, it tears away at who He is as a man, it makes him weaker not stronger, and in the long run not only will you lose respect for him, but your daughters will never respect him, and your son will not learn how a man should act.

When my husband came home for lunch I thanked him for standing firm, and went to my children later and let them know *I* was wrong to allow this boy in the house after he told him to wait outside..and shared with them, pretty much what I said above. And through that, a greater respect for him has grown in our home, and in that He is my kids step-dad that is a HUGE thing.

Something else that came out of that, is my daughter started noticing this young man would ask if he could come over, and when she would say, "sure, but my step-dad will be home", his response was always the same "never mind, maybe another day" so she started saying that all the time, until he finally stopped asking..and he started dating girls whose fathers weren't around.

My oldest daughter, who is 19, won't date a guy who will not agree to go on a date with him as their chaperone (not that he has ever gone as a chaperone) but to her, they have to at least be willing to agree that He can go in that capacity...for her to go out with them..

So when your daughter brings this friend over...don't be afraid to ask her to stay outside...even if it makes everyone else upset or mad, and then allow the Holy Spirit to work in them...granted it may take longer than it took for me, but God will work, even if in your wife's heart to stand behind your decision in this.

 

[shackleton]

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness Romans 1:18-32
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. (ESV)

It seems to be a progressive state that does not end or begin with men and women having sex with each other.
Verse 18 starts out with the wrath of God being revealed against man for all ungodliness and wickedness of men, who suppress the truth. What can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them (general revelation) (19-21).
Even with what was plain, they chose not to honor him as God or give thanks to him, instead they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. they thought they were wise but instead were fools and as a result began to worship the creation rather than the creator and developed idols to look like things in creation. (21-23)
Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, God gave them up to the lusts in their hearts, he let them do what they wanted. (24-25)
When God gave them up to their own passions this is when men lied with men and women with women. They received the penalty in their bodies (venereal diseases?)
If God commanded man to be fruitful, multiply and fill the earth, and God saves through families and grows the covenant community through having children, then men with men and women with women violates this command and this plan.
When God gave them up to a debased mind and improper conduct. After this they were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice etc, etc (29-30)
It says they know God's decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die. They know the truth but in their debased, fallen mind that is enslaved to sin cannot stop themselves. I guess part of the defense of a debased mind is to convince one's self that what they are doing is natural, or they are born that way and cannot control themselves. Notice that it ends by equating a debased mind with approving those who practice such things.