I decided that there weren't enough threads on baptism today, so...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jenny,

Glad to hear that some of what I have noted so far is making some sort of sense. I have grown up with this, so it all makes perfect sense to me.


The promise would be to you and your children as your children would be considered apart of the visible church.

OH! That is news to me. Is that the usual presbyterian view? That my children are part of the visible church? I thought that is what baptism did: make them part of it.

Lets make sure that we are both on the same page when we talk about the "visible church". I am using the definition that the WCF Chapter 25 uses:

The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;[2] and of their children:[3] and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,[4] the house and family of God,[5] out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.[6]

Here are the Scripture proofs:

[2] 1CO 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours. 1CO 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. PSA 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. REV 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. ROM 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

[3] 1CO 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. ACT 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. EZE 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter, 21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them? ROM 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. GEN 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

[4] MAT 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind. ISA 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

[5] EPH 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God. 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.

[6] ACT 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Note that the WCF states that the church "consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion (that would mean you); and of their children (that would be your children)." Note that it does not say "and their BAPTIZED children". Baptism does not make a child apart of the church nor does it save anyone, God does that. Baptism is the outward sign that acknowledges what is already true, that the child is apart of the visible church. Consider this analogy: children of Isrealites were considered apart of the nation of Isreal because their parents were Isrealites. Children of those who profess Christ are considered apart of the visible church because their parents are apart of the visible church. For the Isrealite child,they were given the sign of inclusion (circumcision) because they already were considered apart of the nation of Israel. Its the same for the child of those who profess Christ. They are given the sign (baptism) because they are already considered apart of the visible church.

whoop! whoop! Danger Will Robinson! I'm lost again! How is it bolstering the faith of someone who doesn't have it yet? Wouldn't it do more for the faith of someone who has professed it and believes s/he has it? I was baptised as a baby (like I mentioned before) but didn't believe until I was 18. I wasn't baptised (again) until I was 21 because I spent the intervening time trying to understand if I needed to be. In the end, it was a tremendously rewarding thing to experience as a believer and did bolster my faith. My husband was commenting on it tonight, how real the promise of hope and everlasting life was to me after that. It did bolster my faith. I am wanting to see how it would do that for someone who doesn't recall it at all.

(In my best Dr. Smith voice) "Well let me guide you back to the light!" ;)

For any adult, I am sure the experience is very rewarding and would never look to down play that experience. But is it the sign or what the sign signifies that is the real reward? I was also baptized as an infant in the Presbyterian Church and I certainly don't remember it. But then again, as Christians, we do not walk by sight but by faith and I can look back to that reality and know that I always was apart of the Kingdom of God! And as I grow in faith I can continue to improve upon my baptism, holding fast to the promises made to me when I was an infant! And what did I do to deserve the privilege of being a part of the Kingdom of God? I was just an infant! I certainly could not verbalize any type of profession. But God condescended to include a babbling infant in His Kingdom!

But for Presbyterians, baptism is a once in a lifetime experience. But now we can have that same rewarding experience as we approach the Lord's Table. There we can experience Christ and what he has done for us until he comes again! We can feed upon the body and blood of our Savior through faith and by the power of God the Holy Spirit! The sacrament of the Lord's Supper is an experience that too few really appreciate or consider!


But how does that translate into baptism today? Circumcision had the physical scar to correlate with the physical gift of Canaan which was given to all the members of the covenant, believing and unbelieving alike, and was a sign of what was a gift spiritually as well. Baptism seems to have nothing to offer the unbelieving the way being part of the old covenant did and therefore nothing to hold up as a symbol of "you get this physical thing but it is only a shadow of what you can have!"

Unfortunately this post would be longer than it already is if I were to explain Covenant Theology. But in a nutshell, all the various covenants from Noah to to the New Covenant, announced with the advent of Christ, were administrations of the one covenant made in the Garden (Gen 3:15), the promise of a coming Redeemer (Christ). Each particular Covenant was administered differently, but yet pointed to the same thing, the original Covenant of Grace (Gen 3:15). In the above mentioned Abrahamic Covenant, the promise of land was apart of that covenant and was realized, a long time later!, when through the Mosaic Covenant, God established the seed of Abraham, Israel, as a nation and gave them the promised land. The promise of land was a physical gifts as you noted, but as Scripture notes, these older covenants pointed to something greater.

Now under the administration of the New Covenant the offer is made to all, just like the Israelites, reprobate or elect, that we can inherit the Kingdom of God as fellow heirs with Christ! When Christ returns we will realize that with the new heavens and new earth! That's a whole lot better than a chunk of property in the Middle East! But as Scripture notes, many are called but few are chosen.

Another alarm going off! How does that fit the "sanctifying the unbelieving spouse" part? I will eat my hat if you tell me honestly that the unbelieving spouse can be baptised without a profession, too.

You don't need to eat your hat (unless it looks mighty tasty). One area regarding baptism that both Presbyterians and Baptist agree on is that all adults must make a credible profession of faith in order to be baptised.

I am sure that you are aware that when this verse talks about "sanctifying" it is not talking about "sanctification" via the Holy Spirit.

Everyone sees some distinction betwixt the covenants, yes? The Sabbath changed to the first day of the week, the Comforter coming, preaching to the Gentiles, and more. The Old and New aren't identical in every way, even Presbyterians would agree to that. So we have a distinction between whether the new covenant is the same as the visible church. Credos would say it is not. We would say it is the same as the invisible church. But we both believe there is a visible and an invisible and that the invisible is saved people, though none of us claims to know for sure who is truly part of the invisible. I'm starting to see this in algebraic terms, but that got me into trouble before, so I'm going to stop here before I get into trouble again!

Yes we do see distinctions between the various administrations of the various covenants.

The New Covenant is not the same as the Visible Church! They are not synonyms. The New Covenant is the final administration of the Covenant of Grace (the coming of the promised Redeemer announced in Gen 3:15).

You noted that Old Testament saints were saved just like New Testament saints and even saints of today! They had to repent and believe, which are the stipulations of the Covenant of Grace, as they looked forward to the coming Messiah just as we repent and believe and look back to the cross. And the offer to repent and believe is made to all within earshot, not knowing who is elect or reprobate. Those who do meet the stipulations of the Covenant of Grace (and there children!), whether with a true or false profession, are now apart of the Visible Church. Remember that the Invisible Church intersects the Visible Church at the elect!

You are so great Wayne! What a star! I really appreciate your time and replies! Thanks a bunch! (how many exclamations can I get in here?)

Yes Jenny this is true, but my humility stops me from acknowledging it myself. But I'm glad it hasn't stopped you! ;)
 
I think I understand finally. That bit about faith helps me get the last bit.

There are still inconsistencies of practice that confuse me and the actual means of grace that baptism is still escapes me because the paedo position seems to make it a means of grace to the spectators, not to the recipient (because the recipient can't tell it apart from a dry baby dedication unless there is some mystical power associated with it) and other small things (do you baptise your servants? Grown children? And what do you do if they don't ever profess? What do you do if they do?)

But basically I think I get it now. I don't agree because I can't see Jeremiah 31 the same way you do, but think I understand your basic position at least. I think.

thank you very much for the time and patience, Wayne, David and Dawn. You've borne with me quite kindly!

~jenney
 
I think I understand finally. That bit about faith helps me get the last bit.

There are still inconsistencies of practice that confuse me and the actual means of grace that baptism is still escapes me because the paedo position seems to make it a means of grace to the spectators, not to the recipient (because the recipient can't tell it apart from a dry baby dedication unless there is some mystical power associated with it) and other small things (do you baptise your servants? Grown children? And what do you do if they don't ever profess? What do you do if they do?)

But basically I think I get it now. I don't agree because I can't see Jeremiah 31 the same way you do, but think I understand your basic position at least. I think.

thank you very much for the time and patience, Wayne, David and Dawn. You've borne with me quite kindly!

~jenney

:handshake:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top