if Christ has not been raised...you are still in your sins.

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chuckd

Puritan Board Sophomore
1 Cor. 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

The Greeks certainly believed in an afterlife, but without the resurrection. Acts 17:32

How was the above passage an argument to the Corinthians? They would have accepted an afterlife in which the soul is immortal while the body decayed. To them, those who have fallen asleep have not perished, but their soul lives.

How would they still be in their sins if Christ had died, but not been raised?
 

RPEphesian

Puritan Board Junior
@chuckd

Justice demands full satisfaction for sins, but also no more punishment than necessary; so Christ must be punished by death, but no more than necessary. If Christ did not satisfy the justice of God on the cross and remained dead, it meant He remained in some part a sinner, and He is still under the curse of damnation--which means we have no atonement, thus no resurrection, no heaven. So, no point all this wasted energy on hope of the resurrection if even Christ did not get up.

But if Christ did satisfy the justice of God, then to stay dead would be out of place, and Christ by justice must rise from the dead!

Since Christ rose from the dead, it means our sins were paid for, there is no more curse, thus death cannot hold us indefinitely either.
 

smalltown_puritan

Puritan Board Freshman
@chuckd

Justice demands full satisfaction for sins, but also no more punishment than necessary; so Christ must be punished by death, but no more than necessary. If Christ did not satisfy the justice of God on the cross and remained dead, it meant He remained in some part a sinner, and He is still under the curse of damnation--which means we have no atonement, thus no resurrection, no heaven. So, no point all this wasted energy on hope of the resurrection if even Christ did not get up.

But if Christ did satisfy the justice of God, then to stay dead would be out of place, and Christ by justice must rise from the dead!

Since Christ rose from the dead, it means our sins were paid for, there is no more curse, thus death cannot hold us indefinitely either.
In addition to this faithful response on the justice of God (especially in light of passages like Psalm 16:10), consider the necessary doctrine that Christ must be not only true and very man but also true and very God to make atonement for our sins (see Heidelberg Catechism questions 15-18).

If Christ remained under the power of the grave, than He would not be true and very God, and therefore would not be fit to be our Mediator, and so we would still be in our sins (because atonement would not have been truly made). Thus Romans 4:24-25, 'But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.' And because He is risen from the grave, not only are our sins truly atoned for by the blood of His cross and the wrath of God appeased in His propitious work, but it is further stated 'O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ' (1 Cor 15:55-57).
 

User20004000

Puritan Board Sophomore
“How would they still be in their sins if Christ had died, but not been raised?”

Christ’s resurrection was his open vindication after become sin for his people. In his resurrection from the dead, Christ was justified in the Spirit before being received into glory (1 Timothy 3:16). Christ was also raised for our justification (Romans 4:25). So, no resurrection, no redemption. No redemption, still dead in our sin and trespasses.

All the Christ events (e.g. incarnation) are essential to the age to come but Paul’s eschatological emphasis is upon Christ’s resurrection, which is the first fruit of the one and only resurrection harvest. Christ’s resurrection is the climatic Christ event that ushered in the inaugurated last days that awaits consummation, which will occur when the single resurrection harvest is consummated at the parousia. There’s not two resurrections but one. We’ve already been raised, but not yet in our bodies.
 

chuckd

Puritan Board Sophomore
@chuckd

Justice demands full satisfaction for sins, but also no more punishment than necessary; so Christ must be punished by death, but no more than necessary. If Christ did not satisfy the justice of God on the cross and remained dead, it meant He remained in some part a sinner, and He is still under the curse of damnation--which means we have no atonement, thus no resurrection, no heaven. So, no point all this wasted energy on hope of the resurrection if even Christ did not get up.

But if Christ did satisfy the justice of God, then to stay dead would be out of place, and Christ by justice must rise from the dead!

Since Christ rose from the dead, it means our sins were paid for, there is no more curse, thus death cannot hold us indefinitely either.
Thank you for your reply. Maybe I didn't word the OP well. You said "If Christ did not satisfy the justice of God on the cross and remained dead..."

To the Greeks, he would not have been dead. His soul was in paradise. It would require a necessary assumption about the relationship between body & soul with a person to make sense of Paul's argument: a body that has perished is a person who has perished, regardless of the state of his soul. Am I off base? Meaning when we die, even if our soul is in paradise, we have no hope of "being" again if there is no resurrection. (1 Cor. 15:19)
 
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User20004000

Puritan Board Sophomore
Thank you for your reply. Maybe I didn't word the OP well. You said "If Christ did not satisfy the justice of God on the cross and remained dead..."

To the Greeks, he would not have been dead. His soul was in paradise. It would require a necessary assumption about the relationship between body & soul with a person to make sense of Paul's argument: a body that has perished is a person who has perished, regardless of the state of his soul. Am I off base? Meaning when we die, even if our soul is in paradise, we have no hope of "being" again if there is no resurrection. (1 Cor. 15:19)
“To the Greeks, he would not have been dead. His soul was in paradise.”

I think where you could be getting tripped up is Paul wasn’t addressing an erroneous presupposition. His polemic was based upon true doctrine. He was arguing according to the necessity of resurrection for justification before God. In that context, maybe read my previous post again.
 

RPEphesian

Puritan Board Junior
Thank you for your reply. Maybe I didn't word the OP well. You said "If Christ did not satisfy the justice of God on the cross and remained dead..."

To the Greeks, he would not have been dead. His soul was in paradise. It would require a necessary assumption about the relationship between body & soul with a person to make sense of Paul's argument: a body that has perished is a person who has perished, regardless of the state of his soul. Am I off base? Meaning when we die, even if our soul is in paradise, we have no hope of "being" again if there is no resurrection. (1 Cor. 15:19)

“To the Greeks, he would not have been dead. His soul was in paradise.”

I think where you could be getting tripped up is Paul wasn’t addressing an erroneous presupposition. His polemic was based upon true doctrine. He was arguing according to the necessity of resurrection for justification before God. In that context, maybe read my previous post again.

I think Paul is assuming that his readers agree there is a hell after death for the unforgiven, which is what I think RWD is saying. Otherwise according to Greek philosophy it wouldn’t seem so direly consequential if Christ wasn’t risen.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
If you look back at the Garden of Eden, God's curse upon Adam and Eve was that they would surely die if they ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. There were other curses to follow, but THE curse was death. The death curse was both physical and spiritual which God joined inseparably together. When God created Adam and Eve, he had intended they live forever physically and spiritually. His intentions were never that they lived either spiritually or physically but both joined together. His intentions have never changed. This his how he wants mankind to be. When Christ died on the cross he who knew no sin became sin and had he not been fully God he would have died spiritually but instead he took on our sins and paid for them instead of succumbing to those sins. Had he not been fully man he could not have died physically in order to pay for physical death by his resurrection which broke the physical curse of death. Both curses of death had to be overcome or paid for in order to secure our perfect righteousness before God which is found in Christ. There was a full payment that God required. Interestingly enough, Christ's resurrection not only paid for his elect's physical death but also for the non-elect's physical death. All will have resurrected bodies... the difference being some will be resurrected unto eternal life and others unto eternal death. It's possible that the Greeks had a higher view of the spiritual realm than the physical realm, but Paul is trying to teach them that from the beginning God viewed both the physical and spiritual equally and both spheres had to be redeemed. Both had curses that had to be broken in order for mankind to be what God had intended for them to be.
 
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User20004000

Puritan Board Sophomore
If you look back at the Garden of Eden, God's curse upon Adam and Eve was that they would surely die if they ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. There were other curses to follow, but THE curse was death. The death curse was both physical and spiritual which God joined inseparably together. When God created Adam and Eve, he had intended they live forever physically and spiritually. His intentions were never that they lived either spiritually or physically but both joined together. His intentions have never changed. This his how he wants mankind to be. When Christ died on the cross he who knew no sin became sin and had he not been fully God he would have died spiritually but instead he took on our sins and paid for them instead of succumbing to those sins. Had he not been fully man he could not have died physically in order to pay for physical death by his resurrection which broke the physical curse of death. Both curses of death had to be overcome or paid for in order to secure our perfect righteousness before God which is found in Christ. There was a full payment that God required. Interestingly enough, Christ's resurrection not only paid for his elect's physical death but also for the non-elect's physical death. All will have resurrected bodies... the difference being some will be resurrected unto eternal life and others unto eternal death. It's possible that the Greeks had a higher view of the spiritual realm than the physical realm, but Paul is trying to teach them that from the beginning God viewed both the physical and spiritual equally and both spheres had to be redeemed. Both had curses that had to be broken in order for mankind to be what God had intended for them to be.
“had he not been fully God he would have died spiritually”

Being God allowed our mediator to sustain the divine wrath for the sins of the world and keep the human nature from sinking under the infinite wrath of God. Is that what you’re intending regarding Christ’s needing to be God in order to keep from dying spiritually?

“but instead he took on our sins and paid for them instead of succumbing to those sins.”

What is meant by succumbing? Your terms can be taken as juxtaposing satisfaction (justice / paid for) and temptation (succumbing). When you say that the mediator had to be God so that he wouldn’t succumb to sin, we need to stay clear of anything that might undermine the active and passive obedience of the divine person as a human being. Jesus as a human being, according to human faith and obedience, didn’t succumb to sin’s temptation.

“Christ's resurrection not only paid for his elect's physical death but also for the non-elect's physical death.”

I don’t know if that’s salvageable.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
“had he not been fully God he would have died spiritually”

Being God allowed our mediator to sustain the divine wrath for the sins of the world and keep the human nature from sinking under the infinite wrath of God. Is that what you’re intending regarding Christ’s needing to be God in order to keep from dying spiritually?

“but instead he took on our sins and paid for them instead of succumbing to those sins.”

What is meant by succumbing? Your terms can be taken as juxtaposing satisfaction (justice / paid for) and temptation (succumbing). When you say that the mediator had to be God so that he wouldn’t succumb to sin, we need to stay clear of anything that might undermine the active and passive obedience of the divine person as a human being. Jesus as a human being, according to human faith and obedience, didn’t succumb to sin’s temptation.

“Christ's resurrection not only paid for his elect's physical death but also for the non-elect's physical death.”

I don’t know if that’s salvageable.
I keep rewriting an answer to you and I keep sounding snarky which I don't want to sound. I'll just say that I think you know what I'm saying because in some places you said what I was saying just in a different way and in other places you're attributing to me the heresy of dividing Christ's two natures and ending your statement with a correction to me that Christ never sinned. I'm confused as to why you got all that out of what I said. As for Christ's resurrection breaking the curse of physical death for all of mankind, I'll look for the Scripture which states that all will be resurrected on the last day some to eternal life and some to eternal death, but I feel like you already know about that Scripture..... ;)
 

User20004000

Puritan Board Sophomore
I keep rewriting an answer to you and I keep sounding snarky which I don't want to sound. I'll just say that I think you know what I'm saying because in some places you said what I was saying just in a different way and in other places you're attributing to me the heresy of dividing Christ's two natures and ending your statement with a correction to me that Christ never sinned. I'm confused as to why you got all that out of what I said. As for Christ's resurrection breaking the curse of physical death for all of mankind, I'll look for the Scripture which states that all will be resurrected on the last day some to eternal life and some to eternal death, but I feel like you already know about that Scripture..... ;)
Brother,

You may think what you want on why I posted but all those quotes of yours are really out there. I had no idea what you were trying to saying so I tried to put some orthodoxy into them so that you wouldn’t be confusing anyone with false doctrine. I still don’t understand the bit about succumbing. Perhaps bring just your post to your pastor and see what he says. Don’t show him my charitable interpretation.

As for Christ being raised for the non elect, one might think from your post that without the resurrection of Christ God couldn’t raise the dead for judgment. Their resurrection is not in union with Christ nor part of the resurrection harvest. That some will be raised and judged does not imply that Christ’s resurrection broke the curse of death for them.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
Brother,

You may think what you want on why I posted but all those quotes of yours are really out there. I had no idea what you were trying to saying so I tried to put some orthodoxy into them so that you wouldn’t be confusing anyone with false doctrine. I still don’t understand the bit about succumbing. Perhaps bring just your post to your pastor and see what he says. Don’t show him my charitable interpretation.

As for Christ being raised for the non elect, one might think from your post that without the resurrection of Christ God couldn’t raise the dead for judgment. Their resurrection is not in union with Christ nor part of the resurrection harvest. That some will be raised and judged does not imply that Christ’s resurrection broke the curse of death for them.
If you had no idea what I was saying then perhaps the fault lies with your comprehension skills. I’m not trying to be mean but maybe next time instead of trying to correct a person’s writing that you don’t understand start with asking questions. You’re not a good detailed reader otherwise you would have known I’m a girl not boy. ;)
 

Taylor

Puritan Board Senior
If you had no idea what I was saying then perhaps the fault lies with your comprehension skills. I’m not trying to be mean but maybe next time instead of trying to correct a person’s writing that you don’t understand start with asking questions. You’re not a good detailed reader otherwise you would have known I’m a girl not boy. ;)
This isn't a fair (or relevant) post. Some of us use mobile exclusively for PB, and signatures do not appear.
 

User20004000

Puritan Board Sophomore
If you had no idea what I was saying then perhaps the fault lies with your comprehension skills. I’m not trying to be mean but maybe next time instead of trying to correct a person’s writing that you don’t understand start with asking questions. You’re not a good detailed reader otherwise you would have known I’m a girl not boy. ;)

It’s not so much that I’m not a “good detailed reader.” Its just that I only use my iPhone so I don’t ever see signatures. I just learned your name is Sarah. Hi Sarah!

Theology aside, if you didn’t know why I didn’t know you were female, then perhaps “next time instead of trying to correct a person’s writing that you don’t understand start with asking questions.”

As for your tagging of theological terms and your understanding of Christ’s resurrection paying for and breaking the curse of the physical death of the non elect, I’d ask you to consider running these things by your pastor.

Blessings, Sarah.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
This isn't a fair (or relevant) post. Some of us use mobile exclusively for PB, and signatures do not appear.
Fair enough. I apologize for being defensive against the heretical accusations against me. I'll try to be more charitable and break down for him what I was saying.
 

User20004000

Puritan Board Sophomore
Fair enough. I apologize for being defensive against the heretical accusations against me. I'll try to be more charitable and break down for him what I was saying.

All good. I don’t think I accused you of heresy. I do know it wasn’t my intention to do so.

Blessings, Sister.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
It’s not so much that I’m not a “good detailed reader.” Its just that I only use my iPhone so I don’t ever see signatures. I just learned your name is Sarah. Hi Sarah!

Theology aside, if you didn’t know why I didn’t know you were female, then perhaps “next time instead of trying to correct a person’s writing that you don’t understand start with asking questions.”

As for your tagging of theological terms and your understanding of Christ’s resurrection paying for and breaking the curse of the physical death of the non elect, I’d ask you to consider running these things by your pastor.

Blessings, Sarah.
I'm just going to help you out by breaking down what I said and giving Scriptural support. But please next time ask questions instead being uncharitable and ascribing heretical ideas to another person. This might take me some time to post my break down so give me time.
 

User20004000

Puritan Board Sophomore
I'm just going to help you out by breaking down what I said and giving Scriptural support. But please next time ask questions instead being uncharitable and ascribing heretical ideas to another person. This might take me some time to post my break down so give me time.

Again, I’ll leave you to your pastor.
 

OPC'n

Puritan Board Doctor
Again, I’ll leave you to your pastor.
You're being cagy and continuing in your self-righteous attitude. There's no reason to attack another person here and attribute heresy to them in order for you to appear well versed in Scripture. I'm not impressed by your "wealth" of wisdom. I've taken my valuable time to break down for you what I said earlier.

I said, "If you look back at the Garden of Eden, God's curse upon Adam and Eve was that they would surely die if they ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. There were other curses to follow, but THE curse was death. The death curse was both physical and spiritual which God joined inseparably together. When God created Adam and Eve, he had intended they live forever physically and spiritually. His intentions were never that they lived either spiritually or physically but both joined together. His intentions have never changed. This his how he wants mankind to be."

In Genesis 2:15, we see God's multiple gifts, God's multiple commandments, and his warning of death if they broke one of his commands by eating from a particular tree that they were commanded not to eat of. We see God's overriding curse he promised to inflict upon Adam and Eve, that curse being death. It's unclear to us if Adam and Eve knew that this death would be both physical and spiritual, but since they had a greater knowledge of God than we do now, I'm willing to assume they did. Down through the ages mankind has put a greater emphasis on the spiritual than the physical and to their harm. God cursed mankind both physically and spiritually showing his great interest in that both be known to be equally important. When we are saved it's not good enough that our souls are redeemed. God commands that our minds and hearts be renewed daily and our actions show growth of sanctification by keeping ourselves (our bodies) pure from all sorts of evil. Thus, when God cursed mankind with death the whole of him would die and the whole of him would need to be redeemed by a Savior. This curse of two deaths are joined inseparably by God. This is a curse that can only be lifted by God. I don't think I need to give you Scripture which proves these two deaths. I think you understand this.

I said, "When Christ died on the cross he who knew no sin became sin and had he not been fully God he would have died spiritually but instead he took on our sins and paid for them instead of succumbing to those sins."

In John 1:1-5 and Matthew 1-25, we see that Christ is God-man. I'll quote the WCF "The Son of God, the second person in the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance and equal with the Father, did, when the fulness of time was come, take upon Him man's nature,(1) with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin;(2) being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, of her substance.(3) So that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures, the Godhead and the manhood, were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion.(4) Which person is very God, and very man, yet one Christ, the only Mediator between God and man". Romans 5:12 tells us all of mankind have sinned, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned...". Therefore, Christ was not of the sinful as Romans 5 continues in verse 19, "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.". By God's own testimony of an eternal hell for sinners who sin against him, we know that our sins carry the worth of infinite evil against God. How do you pay for infinite evil? You pay for it with infinite righteousness. Who has infinite righteousness? Who can pay for infinite evil through their death? The answer is God who is the only infinite Being. But God cannot die, therefore, Christ came as God-man so that he could bear our sins and die. Therefore, we see that if Christ had not been fully God he firstly would not have been sinless and secondly if by chance he would have been just a man who was sinless, he could not have bore the sins of his elect. Had he only been a finite sinless man he would have succumb to our sins which were placed upon him for a finite man cannot bear under infinite sins nor could a finite man pay for infinite sins. 2 Cor 5: 21 "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." Christ could not have been made sin without succumbing to sin if he had not also been God. This is really the dumbest argument I've ever had with anyone. You're making me state a lot of "if not's" to explain something I made very clear in the first place.

I said, "Had he not been fully man he could not have died physically in order to pay for physical death by his resurrection which broke the physical curse of death." I hope I don't need to give you Scripture to prove that God cannot die. I'm going to assume you know this.

Now for the unsalvageable statement. I said, "Both curses of death had to be overcome or paid for in order to secure our perfect righteousness before God which is found in Christ. There was a full payment that God required. Interestingly enough, Christ's resurrection not only paid for his elect's physical death but also for the non-elect's physical death. All will have resurrected bodies... the difference being some will be resurrected unto eternal life and others unto eternal death". You said, "As for Christ being raised for the non elect, one might think from your post that without the resurrection of Christ God couldn’t raise the dead for judgment."

God can raise the dead and did so many times before Christ's resurrection, but there was a difference between those resurrections and the new resurrection. God cannot do something that goes against his own will. His will is that on the Day of judgment there will be a resurrection of both the living and the dead with bodies that never die. Let me ask you some questions. What is the difference between Lazarus' resurrection by Christ and Christ's own resurrection and mankind's resurrection on the judgment day? If you stop and think for a moment, you will come to the conclusion that Lazarus did not receive a new resurrected body that Christ resurrected with or that mankind will receive on the on judgment day. We know this because Lazarus' body died again. Christ's resurrection ensured an enteral resurrected body for mankind. Those who are in Christ will have a new body that will live in enteral righteousness with him, and those who are outside of Christ will have a new body that will live in eternal evil and torment in hell. Both the justified and unjustified will have resurrected bodies that will never die. Christ's resurrection BROKE the curse of physical death for all of mankind in order to fulfill his will for mankind. Again, God values the physical along side of the spiritual. He has always intended that mankind have a physical body for eternity.

You said, "Their resurrection is not in union with Christ nor part of the resurrection harvest."

Never did I say that the non-elect's resurrection is in union with Christ I said the exact opposite. This is an example of how you continually attributed false doctrine to me. You wrote weird, false, theological statements and then attributed them to being what I wrote. It's laughable.

You said, "That some will be raised and judged does not imply that Christ’s resurrection broke the curse of death for them."

Then who broke the curse of physical death for them? Do you believe they won't have bodies that will live for eternity in hell or do you believe they will give themselves bodies that will live enterally in hell?
 

User20004000

Puritan Board Sophomore
“Then who broke the curse of physical death for them?”

Nobody. The curse of physical death is not lifted for those who perish.

Edit: It’s not even lifted for those who are made alive in Christ. If there was no redemption God could have raised all in their bodies to receive their guilty verdict.
 
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