Images in Worship: Nicea II says YES, Ephesus said NO?

[PointyHaired Calvinist]

I was listening to a podcast with Scott Clark and Michael Horton about Eastern Orthodoxy. Horton mentioned that images (a were made necessary to salvation at Nicea II in 787) had been forbidden at the Council of Ephesus (431).

Does anyone have the information about the discussion of images at Ephesus?

 

[RamistThomist]

Images were always an ambiguous point in the early church. We have archealogical evidence that images were on the walls of churches. On the other hand, they didn't have quite the same important as their proponents make them today.

I'll have to look at Ephesus again. There were strictly "two" 7th Ecumenical Councils. Heira condemned images. Nicea II championed them. I think both councils represented practices common in the early church.

 

[Phil D.]

I think Horton may have been mistaken. When I did a study a while ago I came away with the impression that the use of religious imagery primarily came into widespread use starting in the 6th century (although there are brief mentions of it as far back as the 2nd century). I think there was a regional Spanish synod in the early 4th century that allowed the personal use of images while forbidding them in churches. While some subsequent church/state leaders issued decrees against imagery (early 8th century?), ensuing conciliar reactions were to defend and advocate the use of imagery, such as Nicea II and Constantinople IV (870). For what it's worth...

 

[NaphtaliPress]

 

[ReformedCuban]

What does Perkins mean by the "seventh Council of Constantinople"?

 

[Phil D.]

What does Perkins mean by the "seventh Council of Constantinople"?

This... aka the Council of Hieria which Jacob mentioned

 

[ReformedCuban]

This... aka the Council of Hieria which Jacob mentioned

Thanks. I am familiar with Hieria, but I didn't know it was also referred to as the seventh Council of Constantinople. I suppose the naming has to do with whether one thinks it's legitimate.

 

[Phil D.]

On a related sidenote, the quotation of Epiphanius as mentioned by Perkins was claimed to be spurious by Nicea II. There is what seems an objective survey of the evidence here (beginning at p.150).

Glad for the Reformers level-headed interpretation of Scripture on this issue...

 

[PointyHaired Calvinist]

Hieria (which I’m convinced that due to its location and subject matter should have been known as Chalcedon II) definitely put the kibosh on images, and in a very convincing manner. I’m still curious about earlier “infallible” ecumenical councils doing likewise.

 

[Phil D.]

I’m still curious about earlier “infallible” ecumenical councils doing likewise.

There may be others, but the brief citation by Perkins of the regional Spanish Synod of Elvira (aka Elibera) in c.305 is the only earlier conciliar statement I've encountered. It obviously implies images were in use, yet only, specifically, forbade their use in churches.

 

[RamistThomist]

From a Catholic/EO point of view, local, regional councils would not have been considered infallible. They were usually convened to deal with management problems in the area (usually dealing with roving bishops who didn't have a church). A council in Spain would not have the same import as Chalcedon.