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So if the Spirit moves me to pray for the death of God's enemies I should?When the Spirit moves you ? I pray every day that those who persecute my brothers and sisters in Christ, for His names sake, will either come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ or fall by the edge of the sword. Every day for many years. Don't ask me what I pray for the BIden/Harris/Rice regime.
Loving your enemies means treating them lawfully not a warm fussy feeling....no?I have tended to see and use them, generally, against Christ's enemies and sinful behavior. I think advocating it against specific people invites something less than loving your enemies.
My prayer is that they would come to a saving knowledge or fall by the sword. It is not for their destruction only.So if the Spirit moves me to pray for the death of God's enemies I should?
Agreed.My prayer is that they would come to a saving knowledge or fall by the sword. It is not for their destruction only.
We don't but I do pray through the Pslams on the regular...If you guys sing all the Psalms regularly your question will be answered. Pray imprecatatory prayers along with Christ, and him only.
It might be more than just merely treating them lawfully, like the Good Samaritan should the opportunity arise. But warm fuzzy feelings? No.Loving your enemies means treating them lawfully not a warm fussy feeling....no?
When the typological theocratic context in which we most often see them offered in Scripture finds its eschatological fulfillment. Certainly since we live in the time of fulfillment without consummation there are ways we can appropriately pray them now (I believe, like our sister Jeri mentioned, that we can still appropriately pray and sing the imprecatory Psalms though I tend to do so with caution) but I think we ought to do so knowing that we don't know for certain who the Lord's enemies are and that when we pray, "Your Kingdom come, your will be done," we ought to be praying for repentance for particular peoples and overthrow and destruction of the Lord's enemies only generally since we don't know who among them might be the Lord's servants and our brothers and sisters. Thank God that the Lord answered the prayers of his people about Saul the Persecutor of the Church by making him Paul the Apostle and not by immediately striking him dead and casting him into hell!When should Christians pray imprecatory prayers?
Yours in the Lord,
jm
Meditate on Psalm 137.We don't but I do pray through the Pslams on the regular...
I do Jimmy, I do.Meditate on Psalm 137.
Sounds like you're praying for President Pelosi, brother! I prefer to pray that the Lord will give long, long life to Uncle Joe and wisdom to govern reasonably well.I pray fairly regularly that the Lord would either convert Biden and Harris, or that he would remove them from their alleged office, either by deposition or death. And, yes, I call their names in my prayers. I don't think it's inappropriate at all to pray in this fashion. I don't do it out of hatred, but out of concern for Christ's Church in America. I don't just blanketly pray, "Lord, please slaughter them," but rather, "Lord, please convert them. If that is not your will, then please get them out of here, even if that means through their deaths." I and my church have prayed the same for the godless and wicked rulers of Eritrea, whose brutal persecution of Christians have left physical marks on the backs of men and women, even a pastor, in our own presbytery.
Fair point, except that I normally also pray, as I did this morning, that the Lord would destroy liberalism in general (and liberals—again, through conversion or destruction) in this and all other lands, and that good and even godly sense would be restored among the people. This is, in my view, part of what it means to pray, "Thy Kingdom come," which is expressed in Westminster Larger Catechism 191 thusly: "We pray, that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed," and "that [Christ] would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world."Sounds like you're praying for President Pelosi, brother! I prefer to pray that the Lord will give long, long life to Uncle Joe and wisdom to govern reasonably well.
I'm mostly joking around with you but I think that our prayers to that end probably also include the destruction of a lot of conservatism and conservatives too! I usually just don't state them by name.Fair point, except that I normally also pray, as I did this morning, that the Lord would destroy liberalism in general (and liberals—again, through conversion or destruction) in this and all other lands, and that good and even godly sense would be restored among the people. This is, in my view, part of what it means to pray, "Thy Kingdom come," which is expressed in Westminster Larger Catechism 191 thusly: "We pray, that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed," and "that [Christ] would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world."
You’re very right, brother. And, to be honest, that is a glaring inconsistency on my part. Perhaps even an injustice. This is definitely a matter for prayer...I think that our prayers to that end probably also include the destruction of a lot of conservatism and conservatives too!
Be careful not to veer into New Covenant Theology-ish territory. The Psalms are as much for today as when they were written. We are still to hate, not individuals whose election or reprobation we have no knowledge of, but the “wicked” who hate God, persecute his church, do great evil and will never repent. And we don’t hate them with an emotional hate but with the kind of hatred God has for them.The Psalms also speak this way:
Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord , and abhor those who are in rebellion against you? I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies.
Psalms 139:21-22
In the era of the new testament, I see a major change in the way enemies are treated by God's people. I see Jesus and Paul calling Christ's followers to bless those who persecute them, to pray for those who persecute them, and to love those who hate them.
Thank you for sharing you thoughts. I understand what you're saying theologically from an academic perspective, I just don't get it practically. I have people in my life who are atheists not living for God, but I genuinely love them, and they know I do, and it is my love for them that desires their conversion and causes me to invest in their lives that they may pursue what is good. What if all Christians hated people from other religions and those who don't love God? How would people know the love of Christ, who loved us and pursued us when we were dead in sin? I was converted through people investing their lives in mine when I was lost, and I'm grateful they loved me and didn't hate me. Please clarify where I'm wrong in thinking this. Thanks!Be careful not to veer into New Covenant Theology-ish territory. The Psalms are as much for today as when they were written. We are still to hate, not individuals whose election or reprobation we have no knowledge of, but the “wicked” who hate God, persecute his church, do great evil and will never repent. And we don’t hate them with an emotional hate but with the kind of hatred God has for them.
You can’t pit Christ against the OT. He and his church are the speaker in Psalm 139.
Ryan,Thank you for sharing you thoughts. I understand what you're saying theologically from an academic perspective, I just don't get it practically. I have people in my life who are atheists not living for God, but I genuinely love them, and they know I do, and it is my love for them that desires their conversion and causes me to invest in their lives that they may pursue what is good. What if all Christians hated people from other religions and those who don't love God? How would people know the love of Christ, who loved us and pursued us when we were dead in sin? I was converted through people investing their lives in mine when I was lost, and I'm grateful they loved me and didn't hate me. Please clarify where I'm wrong in thinking this. Thanks!
Thanks for the reply! I get your point, I guess I just see the NT playing out differently. I think of Jesus on the cross, wanting those who are killing him to be forgiven, of Philip being stoned and wanting his murderers to be forgiven, and Paul saying he wished he could be cursed in place of those persecuting him. These examples just don't sound like hatred for our enemies, but love. On top of this we have the clear teachings to the Church from Jesus and Paul.Ryan,
You should continue to show love to your atheist friends! You are a blessing to them! However if your atheist friends were physically or verbally abusing your brothers and sisters in Christ, then you have biblical reasons to be angry and express that anger to your Heavenly Father. If soldiers beat and kill our brothers and sisters overseas then we have biblical grounds to call for the Lord’s judgment to stop them. None of that hinders you from desiring and asking for their conversion either.
I think we are agreeing more than not. Imprecations I think are best reserved towards wicked agendas and organizations that slander our Lord. After all we do live in a nation under judgment as I understand Romans 1. Of course for individuals we should be crying out for conversion knowing that we once were enemies.Thanks for the reply! I get your point, I guess I just see the NT playing out differently. I think of Jesus on the cross, wanting those who are killing him to be forgiven, of Philip being stoned and wanting his murderers to be forgiven, and Paul saying he wished he could be cursed in place of those persecuting him. These examples just don't sound like hatred for our enemies, but love. On top of this we have the clear teachings to the Church from Jesus and Paul.
I am comfortable with expressing my anger to God over people's sin, but not with hating them and desiring eternal punishment for them.
I guess I'm not getting it.
There is a difference between "hating someone and desiring eternal punishment for them" and praying that God would execute his judgment on the wicked. When we pray that God would judge the wicked, we are only praying that he would be God. And praying such does not contradict our own experience of grace. There's no cognitive dissonance with these two things. Further, we are not praying exclusively for God's judgment on the wicked. Just like the Psalmists, we mix our imprecations with prayers for the salvation of the lost.Thanks for the reply! I get your point, I guess I just see the NT playing out differently. I think of Jesus on the cross, wanting those who are killing him to be forgiven, of Philip being stoned and wanting his murderers to be forgiven, and Paul saying he wished he could be cursed in place of those persecuting him. These examples just don't sound like hatred for our enemies, but love. On top of this we have the clear teachings to the Church from Jesus and Paul.
I am comfortable with expressing my anger to God over people's sin, but not with hating them and desiring eternal punishment for them.
I guess I'm not getting it.
Thanks for the link. Dr. Strange's thoughts would fit more with my application I believe, I just never thought about it that way. Do you agree with his perspective?I think we are agreeing more than not. Imprecations I think are best reserved towards wicked agendas and organizations that slander our Lord. After all we do live in a nation under judgment as I understand Romans 1. Of course for individuals we should be crying out for conversion knowing that we once were enemies.
I think Dr. Strange (@Alan D. Strange ) says it well here:
Praying Imprecatory Psalms
What are your thoughts on praying imprecatory Psalms against the President of the United States? Disrespectful, sinful, appropriate, wise?www.puritanboard.com