Individualism and Western Society

[Ben Zartman]

I've been told, "I'm placing authority in the Scriptures as systematized by the Roman Catholic magisterium / councillor Bishops of the Eastern Orthodox Church. etc."

It always boils down to authority and who has the power or right to interpret God's revelation.

We each have the responsibility to search the Scriptures and see which interpretation is in line with them. I'm open to hearing and responding to challenges to the systematic theology I've embraced. I'll never respond to a challenge with, "Well, the Confession says it so it must be true." Rather, I'll seek to bring passages from the scripture to bear on it. The writers of the Confessions weren't claiming authority--they were distilling what the bible had to say about different topics and summarizing them.

 

[wcf_linux]

Not really. There are multiple patriarchates which roughly reflect an ethnic breakdown (Greek, Russian, Serbian, Antiochian/Arab). On one hand the EO can say that they don't change, and that's relatively true. At least in the last 1200 years (minus the changes Patriarch Nikon of Moscow introduced in the 17th century).

I wouldn't concede that much even, really. Gregory of Palamas (14th century) helped reshape a lot of doctrinal emphases. Also, despite how many E.O.'s nowadays consider Thomism to be a great heresy, the writings of Thomas Aquinas were actually quite popular for a little while in Constantinople. While Eastern Orthodoxy as we know it now was largely codified at the Council of Jerusalem (1672), there was a lot of Roman Catholic influence in many Eastern Orthodox regions in the 18th and 19th centuries. In Russia, there were a surprising amount of Jesuits teaching in the seminaries during those times. A lot of the current notions about Orthodoxy as some unchanging continuation of the Patristic tradition come from 20th century Orthodox scholars like Meyendorff, who were reacting to those western influences. But most people just aren't familiar with Orthodox history, so enthusiastic converts, their enablers, and outside admirers get away with quite a bit of romantic myth-making.

 

[JM]

I wouldn't concede that much even, really. Gregory of Palamas (14th century) helped reshape a lot of doctrinal emphases. Also, despite how many E.O.'s nowadays consider Thomism to be a great heresy, the writings of Thomas Aquinas were actually quite popular for a little while in Constantinople. While Eastern Orthodoxy as we know it now was largely codified at the Council of Jerusalem (1672), there was a lot of Roman Catholic influence in many Eastern Orthodox regions in the 18th and 19th centuries. In Russia, there were a surprising amount of Jesuits teaching in the seminaries during those times. A lot of the current notions about Orthodoxy as some unchanging continuation of the Patristic tradition come from 20th century Orthodox scholars like Meyendorff, who were reacting to those western influences. But most people just aren't familiar with Orthodox history, so enthusiastic converts, their enablers, and outside admirers get away with quite a bit of romantic myth-making.

Do you have any sources for the idea that unchanging continuation is a modern idea?

 

[RamistThomist]

Do you have any sources for the idea that unchanging continuation is a modern idea?

It's not so much that it is a modern idea. Ancient fathers will say they are simply following the fathers, whether or not that is actually correct. What he is getting at is that modern convertskii talk about how evil the West and scholasticism is. The problem is that much of EO in the past 500 years used Western categories. Palamas himself praised Augustine at times, even sounded Augustinian. Imagine a modern defender of Essence/energies talking like this:

και ούκ εστίν εκεί διάφορα ζωής και σοφίας και αγαθότητος και τών τοιούτων. πάντα γάρ η αγαθότης εκείνη συνειλήμμενως και ενιαίως και απλουστάτως συμπεριβάλλει.

And there is no distinction between life and wisdom and goodness and such kind. For the goodness embraces all things collectively and unitively and in utter simplicity. Gregory Palamas, Physical Chapters, c.34

 

[JM]

It's not so much that it is a modern idea. Ancient fathers will say they are simply following the fathers, whether or not that is actually correct. What he is getting at is that modern convertskii talk about how evil the West and scholasticism is. The problem is that much of EO in the past 500 years used Western categories. Palamas himself praised Augustine at times, even sounded Augustinian. Imagine a modern defender of Essence/energies talking like this:

και ούκ εστίν εκεί διάφορα ζωής και σοφίας και αγαθότητος και τών τοιούτων. πάντα γάρ η αγαθότης εκείνη συνειλήμμενως και ενιαίως και απλουστάτως συμπεριβάλλει.

And there is no distinction between life and wisdom and goodness and such kind. For the goodness embraces all things collectively and unitively and in utter simplicity. Gregory Palamas, Physical Chapters, c.34

That quote made me chuckle.

 

[wcf_linux]

Do you have any sources for the idea that unchanging continuation is a modern idea?

For starters, what @BayouHuguenot said.

Most of my understanding of Eastern Orthodox matters comes from a wide bit of reading over the years, often of works that are mainly about other things, so it's not easy to point to one source. I have paid a good amount of attention over the years, because like Jacob I also had for a time considered converting. In my case it was while I was in college, and after college a bunch of my college friends converted more or less as a group.

An interesting (Eastern Catholic) commentator is http://opuspublicum.com/category/eastern-orthodox-church/

Particularly this one about some of the myth-making of Orthodoxy as a pure tradition, untouched by the Enlightenment and other modern woes (I've even heard that myth from a Yale faculty member who taught historical theology, believe it or not): http://opuspublicum.com/the-myth-of-hart/

Or this one about the relative recentness of Orthodox rejections of the validity of Catholic baptisms: http://opuspublicum.com/a-note-on-the-neo-orthodox-attack-on-catholic-sacraments/

 

[JM]

For starters, what @BayouHuguenot said.

Most of my understanding of Eastern Orthodox matters comes from a wide bit of reading over the years, often of works that are mainly about other things, so it's not easy to point to one source. I have paid a good amount of attention over the years, because like Jacob I also had for a time considered converting. In my case it was while I was in college, and after college a bunch of my college friends converted more or less as a group.

An interesting (Eastern Catholic) commentator is http://opuspublicum.com/category/eastern-orthodox-church/

Particularly this one about some of the myth-making of Orthodoxy as a pure tradition, untouched by the Enlightenment and other modern woes (I've even heard that myth from a Yale faculty member who taught historical theology, believe it or not): http://opuspublicum.com/the-myth-of-hart/

Or this one about the relative recentness of Orthodox rejections of the validity of Catholic baptisms: http://opuspublicum.com/a-note-on-the-neo-orthodox-attack-on-catholic-sacraments/

I attended a Greek Orthodox parish (St. Nektarios) for a year or so. They had no interest in me sticking around because I wasn't Greek, they were nice enough, but I would show up every Sunday and nothing was explained. The one fella that actually talked to me about Orthodoxy moved.

I still have my icons and prayer rope from Mount Athos.

Thank you for the links.

 

[B.L.]

I attended a Greek Orthodox parish (St. Nektarios) for a year or so. They had no interest in me sticking around because I wasn't Greek, they were nice enough, but I would show up every Sunday and nothing was explained. The one fella that actually talked to me about Orthodoxy moved.

A coworker of mine whom I've worked with for years is Greek Orthodox and its been interesting to learn more about his church and the ethnic subcultures that are present. This fella is himself Greek American and has spent over 50 years in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. The picture he paints is one of an ethnic social club where the center of gravity is the parish church. They have flags of Greece on the walls in their fellowship hall and often host various festivities promoting and celebrating their Greek heritage. He told me there are some Orthodox members of his church from Eritrea and other Slavic countries, but those folks are a minority and only attend because there is no other Orthodox church options for them. I asked him how non-Greeks are embraced and what he described in general is a sort of caste-like system where the purer your Greek ancestry is the more accepted you are. Even the parish priest, who is not Greek, uses a Greek-sounding name...not sure if this happened at his ordination or whether its a personal choice he made to boost his "street cred" among the Greek diaspora. The priest is an Air Force veteran with a law enforcement background and packs a pistol under his clerical attire, which I found to be an amusing tidbit. Lol.

One thing I've found interesting about my coworker is he is on the leadership council at his parish and seems to function in a similar capacity as perhaps a Ruling Elder might and yet he is largely ignorant of Orthodox theology and is unable to articulate responses to basic "why do you do what you do?" types of questions. Most of the activities he's involved in sound more akin to a party planner or committee fundraiser.

At any rate...

I still have my icons and prayer rope from Mount Athos.

What do you do with these items? Are they tucked away in a shoebox under your bed? Are they displayed in a prayer corner in your house? Just curious...

 

[JM]

What do you do with these items? Are they tucked away in a shoebox under your bed? Are they displayed in a prayer corner in your house? Just curious...

A couple of icons are hanging on the wall but not facing East. Others are scattered on my bookshelves. I have a bunch, two of Christ Pantocrator, Mary and child Jesus, Our Lady of Walsingham (the only Marian apparition accepted by Catholic, Orthodox & Anglican Churches), Seraphim of Sarov, St. Nektarios, I believe that's it. I have an image of John Calvin on my desk, another of him taken from a stained glass photo and I've thought about making an icon like image of Luther (high quality canvas on board).

Just to note, my kneeler faces a wall. No crosses or icons, just the wall. I keep my Bible, Valley of Vision, Book of Common Prayer, etc. in reach.

 

[wcf_linux]

I attended a Greek Orthodox parish (St. Nektarios) for a year or so. They had no interest in me sticking around because I wasn't Greek, they were nice enough, but I would show up every Sunday and nothing was explained. The one fella that actually talked to me about Orthodoxy moved.

I still have my icons and prayer rope from Mount Athos.

Thank you for the links.

When, years ago, my wife and I started taking the second commandment more to heart, I got rid of most of the icons I had picked up when younger. A couple were gifts to one of the other of us from friends. So we held onto them (in the storage closet) until we could arrange to lose them in a move.