Infinite and/or eternal?

[alexandermsmith]

Hey everyone,

I was having a discussion with some friends the other night about the universe and how it was not infinite. One argument for this would be that God is the only infinite being and, further, that as He created the universe it must be, de facto, finite: it was created. This in turn led to a discussion on the nature of the soul. A person's soul is created so it has a beginning point, ergo it is not infinite. But once created it never goes out of existence, it will last forever. We wondered if the term "eternal" was appropriate to apply to the soul, or if eternal also implied being infinite, or without beginning as well as without end.

So basically what I'm asking is:

1) What is the distinction between infinite and eternal? Both are applied to God in the WCF, suggesting they have different meanings/connotations.

2) Is it appropriate to apply the description "eternal" to the human soul, or would "everlasting", "never-dying" be better descriptions?

Thanks for any help getting clarity on this issue.

 

[Taylor]

These are good questions. I would first suggest that, in the case of your discussion, "infinite"/"eternal" and "finite"/"temporal" are qualitative descriptors more than they are quantitative descriptors. To answer your first question, I would say that eternality is a subset of infinity. I would find it hard to describe a being that was infinite yet not eternal. They are inseparably bound, I would say. I have come to thus understand "eternal" as not meaning simply "without beginning and without end" (merely in reference to time), but rather as meaning completely outside of and apart from everything temporal (and with that everything finite). Again, it is a descriptor of quality more so than quantity.

These things being said, I would say that it is not therefore appropriate to apply the term "eternal" to the human soul. I say this because the human soul has nothing within its essence that is eternal; it is created and finite just like all other things outside of God. Yes, it will continue to exist into eternity, but only because of an outside sustaining agent—namely, God. So, I think your discussion must be framed a little differently: The soul was created, has a beginning point, and is thus not finite. However, I do not think it is not precise to say it will "last" forever, for that implies that it is self-perpetuating, that it will hold out on the basis of its own nature. I think it would be more precise to say that it will be sustained forever. This goes for souls in heaven and hell.

Hope this helps.

 

[MW]

God alone has immortality, having life in and from Himself. Insofar as we speak of the immortality of the soul we usually mean that it never dies but continues to live because it is upheld and sustained by God. As the Greek doctrine of immortality supposes the soul itself has this intrinsic quality merely because it is soul, my preference is to simply speak of the never-dying soul, although as far as words go this means precisely the same thing as immortality.

Eternity is infinitude related to time, as infinity is eternity related to space. Both are negating the limitation of creaturely existence and only refer to God. When the Bible says we have everlasting life it is understood to be a gift of God and the emphasis is on the fact that this is fulness of life in communion with God. The word "everlasting" is used of the wicked in terms of punishment, destruction, shame, etc.

 

[timfost]

Eternity is infinitude related to time, as infinity is eternity related to space. Both are negating the limitation of creaturely existence and only refer to God. When the Bible says we have everlasting life it is understood to be a gift of God and the emphasis is on the fact that this is fulness of life in communion with God. The word "everlasting" is used of the wicked in terms of punishment, destruction, shame, etc.

Question: with these definitions, how can we avoid summarizing eternity as "a long time" and infinity as "a lot of space" when God preexisted both? In other words, if eternity and infinity belong to God, should we define them outside of time and space, or is that impossible since nothing we can fathom is analogous to these truths in relation to God?

Thanks for your help!

 

[MW]

Question: with these definitions, how can we avoid summarizing eternity as "a long time" and infinity as "a lot of space" when God preexisted both? In other words, if eternity and infinity belong to God, should we define them outside of time and space, or is that impossible since nothing we can fathom is analogous to these truths in relation to God?

Technically and strictly they are negations, part of the via negationis, in which we remove creaturely imperfection from our conception of God. They don't have any positive quality as far as saying anything affirmative about the essence of God. His essence is beyond us. He transcends time and space. The idea of a long time or alot of space is simply a multiplication of creaturely limits and cannot refer to God. So the answer is that nothing is analogous. But we still affirm God's immanence, in which we speak of Him being everywhere present, and the one which was and is and is to come. In this sense He fills all time and space whilst also transcending it.

 

[timfost]

Thanks!

So applying to the OP, space can be infinite, but this does not imply that space is infinite in the same way as God is, since our very definition of infinite cannot escape the created confines of space. To argue that space is infinite like God is to subject Him to the creation. Is this correct?

 

[MW]

So applying to the OP, space can be infinite, but this does not imply that space is infinite in the same way as God is, since our very definition of infinite cannot escape the created confines of space. To argue that space is infinite like God is to subject Him to the creation. Is this correct?

I would go a different way and say that space and time by definition are limited and immanent concepts, and therefore there is no such thing as infinite space or eternal time, but infinitude transcends space and eternity transcends time. If we look at another negation, immutability, we see that it must transcend motion; any attempt to scale motion leaves us with successive stages of being, which removes the possibility of immutability.

 

[alexandermsmith]

Thanks guys for your posts, they are very helpful.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I read something from Thomas Aquinas on this subject recently, which I will try to post when I get back from Scotland.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

This lecture may be of some help: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1116151622117