Is "age segregated" Sunday School unbiblical?

[Scott1]

Recently, I encountered a Christian activist group (admirably contending for life issues in the public square) that had on one of its hand-outs regarding the topic of "evolution" for the public:

"...if your church, Sunday School, Christian school, or youth group is age-segregated (organized into peer groups), you have adopted an evolutionary model."

It concludes:

If your church is age-segreagted, it is because they have bought into an evolutionary model, not a Biblical one.

I have never considered this... and can't see how this will help their otherwise commendable cause. What do you all think about this- biblically?

 

[Presbyterian Deacon]

...

"...if your church, Sunday School, Christian school, or youth group is age-segregated (organized into peer groups), you have adopted an evolutionary model."

It concludes:

If your church is age-segreagted, it is because they have bought into an evolutionary model, not a Biblical one.

I have never considered this... and can't see how this will help their otherwise commendable cause. What do you all think about this- biblically?

I think it's as non-sensical as advocating giving pork chops to a new born. Spiritual food, as phsyical food ought to be given to those "who are able to bear it." You will teach older children at a "deeper" level than toddlers ( who can bear only the "milk of the word"), and Adult classes are presumably geared a bit higher (as for those who can bear strong meat).

I see nothing of evolution in it, simply common sense in training up children and young people.

Most ten year old children are capable of understanding more than most 5 year olds, most Teenagers can (or should) be instructed at a level higher than 10 year olds.

As for 'biblical," well, the real question is where do we find "Sunday School" in the Bible?

But, in that we do have Sunday School in our churches, we ought to use the best approach we can to teach God's Word to the students.

 

[Grace Alone]

I couldn't say whether it is unbiblical, but I have always had the inclination to favor broader age groups in a church of covenant families. I like the kids in worship with their family instead of in "children's church". And I think our youngest child has benefited from being in Sunday school with children a couple of years older and younger than she is. I tend to think the extreme age segregation comes from the public school mindset, but I could be wrong.

(I'll clarify that I certainly wouldn't put 5 year olds and teenagers together, though. Our older teens sit in the adult class.)

 

[Casey]

A non-age-segregated Christian school? That's hard to imagine.

 

[Kenneth_Murphy]

Didn't God reveal his plan of salvation in stages and accommodate his revelation to the people in the various dispensations? Don't we first have to drink milk before we can eat meat? I think there are lots of biblical examples of things coming in stages. So I don't see any reason why teaching of children can't come in a different form than adults etc. That's not evolution just maturation. Just some quick thoughts off the top.

 

[JBaldwin]

As our church is relatively new, we will be having Sunday School for the first time this fall. The elders (at the unanimous request of the congregation) have decided to divide Sunday school like this: Children who can't read in one class, elementary school age children who can read in another class, everyone else in one of two classes (all ages above elementary school). The classes will sometimes be divided with all men in one class and all women in another. Other times it will be divided by topic. In either case, the elders felt it would benefit the teenagers to be learning the scriptures with the adults. The teens will have a youth Bible study and fellowship time on Sunday evenings.

I am thrilled that my teenage daughter will be studying the Scriptures with some of the older godly women in my church who've walked with the Lord for a long time. I am also delighted to see that there is a place for the single adults who sometimes get lost in the crowd because there is no Sunday school or group for them.

 

[jwithnell]

I'm not comfortable being dogmatic on the point -- in fact, I'd say the age-segregation in the church is likely a reflection of the public school system. I've noticed this tends to break down in home schooling circles with kids equally comfortable dealing with adults AND kids younger than themselves.

That said, I think there is much to be gained by broader age ranges in churches, recognizing the intellectual and spiritual differences within reason. This is especially true as children begin passing into their young-adult years where they can be greatly encouraged by those who are more mature in their faith and life experiences.

I also think it's sad when churches segregate adults, particularly on Sunday mornings. The young, married couple can benefit greatly from the older widow who can benefit from the intellectual stimulation of those in their mid-career years, etc., etc ....

 

[Tim]

One thing I am sure: age segregated church worship services ("children's church") = BAD NEWS.

 

[jwithnell]

We recently had a family that started coming to our church from a tradition that kept kids out of regular worship until they were young teens. This family was rather amazed at the young children in our services and then again amazed when their own kids responded so well to the opportunity to worship. While I have left a worship service with my face flaming red and one of my children screeching at the top of his lungs, I find for the most part that the young'uns are a real blessing in worship and I pray that God is greatly glorified by their praise.

 

[refbaptdude]

I have noticed the past few years that there seems to be a growing wing within “Vision Forum” and “Bill Gothard” types that is becoming very radical in their views. The statements above sounds like this movement.

 

[Tim]

If we assume that it is proper to have a Sunday school at all, then should it be different from the corporate worship service? I have mentioned above that I think it wrong to segregate the worship service (families should stay together). However, based on this principle (corporate means corporate), I would have difficulty saying why it might be permissible to segregate the Sunday school.

At the risk of entering into a paedo/credo argument, is it possible that part of this issue stems from people's view of whether children are "part of the church"?

By the way, I have witnessed a 2 year old correctly answering an age-appropriate question on a sermon. This had a great impact on my view of the appropriate level at which to teach children. I must admit, though, that this little one was my pastor's son; not all children are similarly brought up.

 

[Tim]

After re-reading the OP, it seems that the quotes encompassed both corporate worship and Sunday school. Shall we assume that this was intended to mean a Sunday school held at a different time from the corporate worship service?

If not, then to me it is a no-brainer that you would not separate children from their parents during the most important hour(s) of the week.

 

[KenPierce]

Recently, I encountered a Christian activist group (admirably contending for life issues in the public square) that had on one of its hand-outs regarding the topic of "evolution" for the public:

"...if your church, Sunday School, Christian school, or youth group is age-segregated (organized into peer groups), you have adopted an evolutionary model."

It concludes:

If your church is age-segreagted, it is because they have bought into an evolutionary model, not a Biblical one.

I have never considered this... and can't see how this will help their otherwise commendable cause. What do you all think about this- biblically?

I would ask them if they give Berkhof to a toddler to read. I agree that the chruch ought to have significant times together as a whole family. Does this mean it is never appropriate to separate out people according to where they are in terms of cognitive development and maturity? That's insane.

Followed to its logical conclusion, it would mean you could never read the Hardy Boys with your preteens separate from reading Where the Wild Things Are to your toddlers.

Or, if you homeschooled, you should be teaching your 2 year old twelfth grade math.

Let's remember that the Shorter Catechism was written TO INSTRUCT CHILDREN, so there is even an acknowledgement of this amongst our fathers.

SOrry to be adamant, I just get tired of some of the Reformed wackiness out there.

 

[JBaldwin]

I have noticed the past few years that there seems to be a growing wing within “Vision Forum” and “Bill Gothard” types that is becoming very radical in their views. The statements above sounds like this movement.

I don't know of anyone in our church who is involved in the Vision Forum or Gothard Movement. In fact, we would be a congregation who frowns on most of what they do. However, I think that along with the homeschooling movement comes the renewed idea that there really is no generation gap. Years ago, when we first considered homeschooling our children, it was the positivie way we saw teenagers interacting with young children that made us realize the benefits of homeschooling.


I love this quote (I don't know where it originated) "Put a group of children who are the same age in a classroom together and everything quickly degenerates to the lowest common denominator."

 

[LawrenceU]

Please don't equate Vision Forum and the Gothard movment. They are poles apart.

BTW, not everything in the Family Integrated movement can be painted with a single brush.

 

[Pilgrim]

Please don't equate Vision Forum and the Gothard movment. They are poles apart.

BTW, not everything in the Family Integrated movement can be painted with a single brush.

I am trying to get a handle on it myself and agree that everything can't be painted with a broad brush. I think in general it represents a proper reaction against secular trends that have crept into the church, but as with any movement there is a lunatic fringe that harps on their pet doctrine to the exclusion of almost everything else, sometimes even ending up in heresy themselves because they've overreacted and swung over to the other extreme. in my opinion the FV is an example of this kind of overreaction. I think we see that with this family integrated/homeschool movement with those in it who adopt stances like homeschool or the highway i.e. that see Christian schools as being as bad as public schools, would like to impose church discipline against those who do not homeschool and attempt to derive a biblical requirement for homeschooling from Deut. 6, which is as persuasive to me as the Romanist attempts to prove the papacy from Matt. 16.

That being said, I am not against homeschooling or family integration and I also realize some Christian schools are basically Christian in name only and that some are little better than many public schools.

 

[Pilgrim]

After re-reading the OP, it seems that the quotes encompassed both corporate worship and Sunday school. Shall we assume that this was intended to mean a Sunday school held at a different time from the corporate worship service?

If not, then to me it is a no-brainer that you would not separate children from their parents during the most important hour(s) of the week.

It seems that the quotes Scott1 was asking about in the OP are expressing the idea that any kind of age segregation whatsovever is from the pit of hell. And that idea is out there.

 

[Pilgrim]

At the risk of entering into a paedo/credo argument, is it possible that part of this issue stems from people's view of whether children are "part of the church"?

That would seem to be a reasonable assumption, but the extremes in this movement in my admittedly somewhat limited experience are typically found in some Reformed Baptist circles (see the previous thread about the ARBCA ministers raising concerns about this movement at their recent GA) as well as FV types, and less so in more mainstream NAPARC type circles. But your mileage may vary.

 

[BertMulder]

In our congregation we do not have a sunday school.

Our children are, as soon as they are physically able to participate, included in our corporate worship.

That being said, we do not ignore the milk to the children. We have catechism classes, broken up in 6 different groups, based on age. However, those classes are held during the week, not on the Lord's day, and as such, do not interfere with corporate worship.

Those catechism classes are normally taught by the pastor, and in his absence by an elder. Those classes are the official work of the church, just as preaching. As a matter of fact, we do consider them preaching.

 

[CharlieJ]

Recently, I encountered a Christian activist group (admirably contending for life issues in the public square) that had on one of its hand-outs regarding the topic of "evolution" for the public:

"...if your church, Sunday School, Christian school, or youth group is age-segregated (organized into peer groups), you have adopted an evolutionary model."

It concludes:

If your church is age-segreagted, it is because they have bought into an evolutionary model, not a Biblical one.

I have never considered this... and can't see how this will help their otherwise commendable cause. What do you all think about this- biblically?

Evolution doesn't seem to be in the picture. The age-segregated model comes from two motivations:

1) Size - Everyone knows that as class size increases, learning decreases. So, if you have 300 children infant-12 years in your church, you have to break them up somehow. You could do it by weight . You could try gender, but that only halves the class. Age is a convenient marking point. There is also another reason age is preferred....

2) Theory of Cognitive Development - that's right Jean Piaget. Look it up on Wikipedia. He did extensive testing to see what kind of thought processes children carried out and at what ages. Then people started structuring education to take advantage of the theory. So, there is a connection to the public schools in a sense. Piaget only suggested broad categories, so demarcating every single year is once again due to size.

Conclusion: If you only have 10 6-10 yr olds in your church, you probably don't need to divide them by year. Also, even if you disagree with details in Piaget, he had a point in there somewhere. Evolution does not even enter the picture.

 

[gene_mingo]

Is training our children in theological matters even the duty of the church?

I have personally struggled with this very issue and still have not made a decision about sunday school.

When it comes to sunday worship then I firmly believe that the children must be included with the adults. To separate them would be a violation of the RPW.

I wonder if sunday school should be considered worship and be viewed through the RPW? If so, then I don't see the how you could age separate. Is sunday school even appropriate within the bounds of the RPW?

Don't most children go to school mon - fri. and if so would school on sunday be a violation of the 4th commandment?

I guess the more I think about it, I lean towards teaching children in the home rather than it being the duty of the church. I think a lot of times people tend to use children's sunday school as an excuse not to have to teach their children the bible themselves. (I used to feel this way myself.)

 

[BertMulder]

You mean 4th commandment?

Catechising our children is a joint and several responsibility of church and home. They complement each other, if each of them work from their position of strength.

 

[gene_mingo]

You mean 4th commandment?

Catechising our children is a joint and several responsibility of church and home. They complement each other, if each of them work from their position of strength.

Yep, sorry just changed it.

Can you show me from the bible where the responsibility of training our children rests with the church?

I see a positive command in Ephesians 6:4 for fathers to do this work.

 

[JBaldwin]

You mean 4th commandment?

Catechising our children is a joint and several responsibility of church and home. They complement each other, if each of them work from their position of strength.

Yep, sorry just changed it.

Can you show me from the bible where the responsibility of training our children rests with the church?

I see a positive command in Ephesians 6:4 for fathers to do this work.

Sunday school grew out of industrialism and originally was designed to teach children how to read and write because they were stuck in the factories working 6 days a week, and it was deemed important that children learn to read. Sunday was the only day to do that, and it gave churches an opportunity to reach out to the unreached children in the community at the same time.

While I would agree that it is the father's responsibility to train up the children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, the church is also responsible to teach, otherwise the Holy Spirit would not have given the church teachers. There is also the fact that not every child in the church has a father who can teach them. For that reason, I see nothing wrong with Sunday school as long as it doesn't get in the way of corporate worship.

 

[Grace Alone]

I consider Sunday School basically a Bible study. So I certainly see the need for children to have a Bible study appropriate for their level of understanding. I certainly believe that Bible study in addition to the worship service is a very good thing. After all, there may be people within the church who are gifted to teach aside from the pastor, and I am thankful to receive extra instruction!

(It looks like J Baldwin and I were thinking along the same lines!)

 

[blhowes]

It concludes:

If your church is age-segreagted, it is because they have bought into an evolutionary model, not a Biblical one.

At the risk of revealing too much of my ignorance, what are they talking about? How is having an age-segregated Sunday School buying into some evolutionary model?

 

[gene_mingo]

While I would agree that it is the father's responsibility to train up the children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, the church is also responsible to teach, otherwise the Holy Spirit would not have given the church teachers. There is also the fact that not every child in the church has a father who can teach them. For that reason, I see nothing wrong with Sunday school as long as it doesn't get in the way of corporate worship.

I fully agree that it is the duty of the church to teach. My reservation comes from separating children out for a different lesson. Should we have the children leave when it comes time for the pastor to give his sermon since it is generally put together for a more adult audience?

 

[calgal]

The question is how big of a church are you talking about? In a small church, to have a bunch of SS classes would be impractical but a midsized or large church certainly has gifted lay teachers who love the kids and can teach them the Gospel in words they can understand clearly. There are parents who "gasp" are new to the Lord and to the Reformed faith. They may appreciate the kids being taught principles they were never shown. And to the "SS is evil" crowd, why is it a bad thing to have your kid taught an hour a week by a member of your church who volunteers to teach when you train the child up in the way that they should go? If the teacher has some goofy ideas, then the Elders/deacons would be able to gently correct them.

 

[Scott1]

UPDATE

I have permission from Steve Beckman, with the group Jeremiah 7 to exerpt some of his explanation about the biblical case for not "age segregating" people in worship and Sunday School. As he graciously explains it:

First, it is important to note that the Bible doesn't specifically say "thou shalt not age segregate". What it does, though, is teach us to age integrate by giving us doctrine that specifically points to various ages existing together. Paul's letters to the Ephesians and Colossians make it clear that children were present in their gatherings. It is reasonable to assume that the whole church would gather to read Paul's letters. It is noteworthy, then, to note that Paul addresses specific age groups in his letters, including children in particular (meaning that they were then present during the reading, together, in one group). In Ephesians 5, Paul finishes the chapter talking specifically to wives and husbands, and immediately after addresses children in 6:1 (Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.). Again, in Colossians 3 Paul addresses husbands and wives, and again, he moves immediately to children in 3:20 (Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.).



Paul’s teaching in Titus 2 again makes age interaction a focus of sound doctrine for churches. In fact, he begins the chapter saying “But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine), going on to tell him (and us) what they are. Older women are to encourage younger (v. 3-5), which means that they couldn’t be completely separated. 1 Timothy 5:1 indicates that the same is true of older and younger men.



Old Testament teachings confirm this model. It is noteworthy that Jesus, when asked for the greatest commandment, did not quote Exodus 20. He quoted Deuteronomy 6, which begins in verses 4 and 5 with “4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5and thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.” This is the part Jesus quoted. The part immediately following those verses give us the application of them: “6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.” This is the model that every homeschool family should understand instinctively…that education is the task given to the family, and that it is an every-day thing. The church is built to encourage Christians, and by extension families, in the work that God has given them.

Mr. Beckman says this is not an "article of faith" in his view, so I'm not sure all the practical parameters of this (e.g. would a fifth grade catechism class for membership be an example of age-segregated, or a youth group, etc.)

 

[Presbyterian Deacon]

UPDATE

I have permission from Steve Beckman, with the group Jeremiah 7 to exerpt some of his explanation about the biblical case for not "age segregating" people in worship and Sunday School. As he graciously explains it:

First, it is important to note that the Bible doesn't specifically say "thou shalt not age segregate". What it does, though, is teach us to age integrate by giving us doctrine that specifically points to various ages existing together. Paul's letters to the Ephesians and Colossians make it clear that children were present in their gatherings. It is reasonable to assume that the whole church would gather to read Paul's letters. It is noteworthy, then, to note that Paul addresses specific age groups in his letters, including children in particular (meaning that they were then present during the reading, together, in one group). In Ephesians 5, Paul finishes the chapter talking specifically to wives and husbands, and immediately after addresses children in 6:1 (Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.). Again, in Colossians 3 Paul addresses husbands and wives, and again, he moves immediately to children in 3:20 (Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.).



Paul’s teaching in Titus 2 again makes age interaction a focus of sound doctrine for churches. In fact, he begins the chapter saying “But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine), going on to tell him (and us) what they are. Older women are to encourage younger (v. 3-5), which means that they couldn’t be completely separated. 1 Timothy 5:1 indicates that the same is true of older and younger men.



Old Testament teachings confirm this model. It is noteworthy that Jesus, when asked for the greatest commandment, did not quote Exodus 20. He quoted Deuteronomy 6, which begins in verses 4 and 5 with “4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5and thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.” This is the part Jesus quoted. The part immediately following those verses give us the application of them: “6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.” This is the model that every homeschool family should understand instinctively…that education is the task given to the family, and that it is an every-day thing. The church is built to encourage Christians, and by extension families, in the work that God has given them.

Mr. Beckman says this is not an "article of faith" in his view, so I'm not sure all the practical parameters of this (e.g. would a fifth grade catechism class for membership be an example of age-segregated, or a youth group, etc.)

Just curious:

Does he have anything to say about John and Paul's use of "babes," "little children," "young men" and "fathers in I Corinthians and I John?