Is Christian Zionism kosha from a reformed perspective?

[Jon 316]

We had missionaries at our church today speaking about there mission work with Israel.

They support the bible texts which speak about the return of the Jews to Israel.

Their work is primarily focused on helping them return.

They were selling books which revealed they were coming from a Zionism perspective. (They were selling David Pawsons book).

Is Zionism biblically sound?

I find it difficult to suss out where some Israel focused groups are coming from in their soteriology at times. Hence the question.

 

[Hippo]

I would say that if their work is centered on converting Jews to be members of the Catholic Church (not the Roman one) then fine, if not (be it to a distinct Jewish church or to remain practicing Jews) then it is not acceptable.

 

[Jon 316]

I would say that if their work is centered on converting Jews to be members of the Catholic Church (not the Roman one) then fine, if not (be it to a distinct Jewish church or to remain practicing Jews) then it is not acceptable.

I'm not sure their work is focused on evangelism at all. (I find very few missionary organisations are these days).

Their work seems to be focused on helping the Jews return to Israel because the believe God is calling the Jews back to Israel for His end time purposes.

That is all I really heard them say today.

 

[Hippo]

The Church is tasked with proclaiming the Gospel, not with ticking boxes to encourage the second coming which I am sure God can handle all by himself.

This all smacks of dispensationalism and I can only imagine how Stephan (Acts 7) would have reacted to this kind of thing.

 

[TimV]

Let us call it what it is. Childish and stupid.

I remember as a teenager a group of Australians who were arrested for trying to blow up the Dome of the Rock so a Jewish Temple could be built in it's place to hasten the End of Days.

In principle, how is what these people are doing different? 120,000 Palestinian Christians reduced to second class citizens in the land where they've lived for centuries, just to bring about what some fevered minds have decided is necessary for Christ to come again?

I was thinking about starting a "what sermon did you hear today" thread, since ours was on that exact topic. Pastor Martin quoted Luther. When asked if he knew the end of the world was tomorrow, what would he do. He said he'd plant an apple tree. Apple trees take a couple year to bear. The idea is that you live your life and fulfil your duties at all times. Since you don't know when the Lord will come again, you fight the fight without letting up, presuming that you could die at any minute.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Christian Zionism is heresy.

 

[Jon 316]

Christian Zionism is heresy.

Hmmm, would you like to unfold that a bit?

-----Added 3/2/2009 at 04:48:06 EST-----

Here is a link to the missionary organisations website FAQ section. Operation Exodus - Country Selector

Let me know what you think once you read it.

also, here is a quote from it

Does Ebenezer evangelise the Jewish people?
Ebenezer’s calling is to call out the Jewish people by prayer and proclamation, and to help them return to their God - given homeland. Were we to evangelise those we help we would not be able to work with the Jewish authorities, and so would not be able to fulfil our calling. We are certain that it is God’s will that His people return and are “planted in the Land”, and that this is their destiny. The prophet Ezekiel foresaw the day when God would pour out his spirit on the nation regathered to the land (Ezekiel 39:25-29).

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Christian Zionism is heresy.

Hmmm, would you like to unfold that a bit?

-----Added 3/2/2009 at 04:48:06 EST-----

Here is a link to the missionary organisations website FAQ section. Operation Exodus - Country Selector

Let me know what you think once you read it.

also, here is a quote from it

Does Ebenezer evangelise the Jewish people?
Ebenezer’s calling is to call out the Jewish people by prayer and proclamation, and to help them return to their God - given homeland. Were we to evangelise those we help we would not be able to work with the Jewish authorities, and so would not be able to fulfil our calling. We are certain that it is God’s will that His people return and are “planted in the Land”, and that this is their destiny. The prophet Ezekiel foresaw the day when God would pour out his spirit on the nation regathered to the land (Ezekiel 39:25-29).

Ezekiel is also very clear (ch. 37) that when Israel returns to the land, they will have a king over a unified people. Obviously, modern Israel doesn't fit the fulfillment, even if we were to take the prophecy literally. And the apostles were crystal clear as to who the true Israel was, those who believe in Christ, both Jew and Gentile.

 

[Jon 316]

Christian Zionism is heresy.

Hmmm, would you like to unfold that a bit?

-----Added 3/2/2009 at 04:48:06 EST-----

Here is a link to the missionary organisations website FAQ section. Operation Exodus - Country Selector

Let me know what you think once you read it.

also, here is a quote from it

Does Ebenezer evangelise the Jewish people?
Ebenezer’s calling is to call out the Jewish people by prayer and proclamation, and to help them return to their God - given homeland. Were we to evangelise those we help we would not be able to work with the Jewish authorities, and so would not be able to fulfil our calling. We are certain that it is God’s will that His people return and are “planted in the Land”, and that this is their destiny. The prophet Ezekiel foresaw the day when God would pour out his spirit on the nation regathered to the land (Ezekiel 39:25-29).

Ezekiel is also very clear (ch. 37) that when Israel returns to the land, they will have a king over a unified people. Obviously, modern Israel doesn't fit the fulfillment, even if we were to take the prophecy literally. And the apostles were crystal clear as to who the true Israel was, those who believe in Christ, both Jew and Gentile.

The sentence I changed to bold type, is the view I have always held.

Is this what Zionists regard as 'replacement theology'?

Regarding the return of Israel and the king ruling over a unified people. Could it not be the case that the people will return and then the king will emmerge?

Another thing, the fact that Jews are returning to Israel in flocks can surely be no small thing, especially when there are prophesies which speak of the return of Jews to Israel. By the way, this does not mean I am arguing for this particuarly ministry or Zionism for that matter. Just thrashing it out.

 

[TimV]

Is this what Zionists regard as 'replacement theology'?

Yes

Regarding the return of Israel and the king ruling over a unified people. Could it not be the case that the people will return and then the king will emmerge?

Yes, and someone could anonymously put ten million dollars into your bank account tomorrow ;-) but it wouldn't be responsible to spend a great deal of time wondering if it will occur.

Another thing, the fact that Jews are returning to Israel in flocks can surely be no small thing, especially when there are prophesies which speak of the return of Jews to Israel. By the way, this does not mean I am arguing for this particuarly ministry or Zionism for that matter. Just thrashing it out.

Jews have been flocking to Israel from Eastern Europe so they could more easily get to America for decades. That's why the number of Jews are increasing in the US and even Western Europe faster than the number of Jews in Israel.

If you count that as somehow "no small thing" there's a guy named Harold Camping I'll introduce you to some day

 

[Jon 316]

How would reformed believers interpret the following?

Rom 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[TimV]

Well, we agree with it. Contrary to nature

Mat 15:22 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon."
Mat 15:23 But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying out after us."
Mat 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Mat 15:25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me."
Mat 15:26 And he answered, "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."

room was made for Gentiles, as most of the Jews were cut off from the church. And when those Jews who remained in the Church by converting to Christianity were augmented by elect Gentiles, then all Israel, i.e. all the elect from both peoples, what we call the Church, will be saved.

If someone is tempted to believe that the verses you quoted mean that every single member of the Jewish race is going to be converted at some future date, they would make a good Christian Zionist.

 

[Jon 316]

If someone is tempted to believe that the verses you quoted mean that every single member of the Jewish race is going to be converted at some future date, they would make a good Christian Zionist.

I'm not sure Zionist believe all Jews will be saved (do they?). But that a) the Jews will return to Israel B) A large number of Jews will turn to Christ c) Jesus will return.

Or are we saying that God has no further purpose for the Jewish nation? Are we saying that all O.T prophesies regarding the Jews are now to be understood in terms of the church?

What do people make of the following claim?

Christian Zionism is not new. " A Nation Called by God " (see and Britain) reviews the writings of great evangelical churchmen who cared about Israel in God's plan and in His word. These men included ... William Cowper, John Owen, John Wesley, Robert Murray McCheyn, William Wilberforce, Charles Haddon Spurgeon and Bishop J C Ryle.

Against Christian Zionism

 

[TimV]

I'm not sure Zionist believe all Jews will be saved (do they?). But that a) the Jews will return to Israel B) A large number of Jews will turn to Christ c) Jesus will return.

I guess I just don't see whether you are asking questions, playing the Devil's advocate, wondering out loud or trying to teach. What did you mean by bolding

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

What do you think verse 26 means? And when you say

They support the bible texts which speak about the return of the Jews to Israel.

It makes it even more confusing. It seems that you are asking questions that you already know the answers to. You take it as a given that there are Bible verses that speak of Jews returning to Israel and that the significance of them doing so is no small thing.

Sorry again, and it's probably just me, but it's really hard to understand where you are coming from.

 

[Jon 316]

I'm not sure Zionist believe all Jews will be saved (do they?). But that a) the Jews will return to Israel B) A large number of Jews will turn to Christ c) Jesus will return.

I guess I just don't see whether you are asking questions, playing the Devil's advocate, wondering out loud or trying to teach. What did you mean by bolding

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

What do you think verse 26 means? And when you say

They support the bible texts which speak about the return of the Jews to Israel.

It makes it even more confusing. It seems that you are asking questions that you already know the answers to. You take it as a given that there are Bible verses that speak of Jews returning to Israel and that the significance of them doing so is no small thing.

Sorry again, and it's probably just me, but it's really hard to understand where you are coming from.

If you feel you need some context for the discussion you should check the first post.

 

[TimV]

I did, and I quoted you.

They support the bible texts which speak about the return of the Jews to Israel.

 

[A.J.]

Another thing, the fact that Jews are returning to Israel in flocks can surely be no small thing, especially when there are prophesies which speak of the return of Jews to Israel. By the way, this does not mean I am arguing for this particuarly ministry or Zionism for that matter. Just thrashing it out.

John, a Reformed answer to your question is provided by Robert L. Reymond in his essay Who Really Owns the "Holy Land"?

Five Propositions

....

1. The modern Jewish state is not a part of the Messianic kingdom of Jesus Christ. Even though this particular political state came into being on May 14, 1948, it would be a denial of Jesus' affirmation that his kingdom is "not of this world order " (John 18:36) to assert that modern Israel is a part of his Messianic kingdom. To put it bluntly, modern Israel is not true Israel at all, but is rather "the spiritual son of Hagar " (Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 4:24-25) and thus is "Ishmaelitish " to the core, due to its lack of Abrahamic belief in Jesus Christ. 21.

[21. Modern Israel must face the fact that to be the physical descendants of Abraham and to have Abrahamic blood flowing in their veins means nothing as far as acquiring God’s approbation is concerned. As John the Baptist warned: ?Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our Father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham? (Matthew 3:9). To the Jews who said, "Abraham is our Father," but who were seeking to kill him, Jesus, said,: "If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing what Abraham did [that is, you would rejoice to see my day].... You are of your father the devil" (John 8:39-44, 56). Ethnic Jews must recall that Abraham had two sons, which means that "not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring"; rather, "it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise who are counted as offspring" (Romans 9:7-8).]​

It has accordingly forsaken any legitimate Biblical claim to Palestine.

2. The land promise of the Old Testament served as a type of the consummate realization of the purposes of God for his redeemed people that encompasses "all the nations " (Genesis 12:3) and the entire cosmos (Romans 4:13). Christians as members of the Messianic kingdom of God are the real heirs, along with Abraham, of the land promise in its antitypical, consummated character.

3. Because of the inherently limited scope of the land promised in the Old Testament, it cannot be regarded as having continuing significance in the realm of redemption other than in its function as a model to teach that obedience and divine blessing go hand in hand while disobedience and divine retribution also go hand in hand.

4. The Old Testament predictions about the "return" of "Israel" to the "land" in terms of a geopolitical re-establishment of the state of Israel are more properly interpreted as having fulfillment at the "restoration of all things" that will accompany the resurrection of believers at the return of Christ (Acts 3:21; Romans 8:22-23). To interpret these predictions literally would be a retrograde elevation of type over antitype.

5. The future Messianic kingdom will embrace the whole of the recreated cosmos and will not experience a special manifestation that could be regarded in any sense as "Jewish" in the so-called "holy land" or anywhere else.

Peter, the apostle to the circumcision (who surely would have had his ear tuned to any and every future privilege Jews might enjoy), when he wrote of future things in 2 Peter 3, said nothing about a Jewish millennium or about a restoration of a Jewish kingdom in Palestine but rather divided the whole of Earth history into three periods: the first period — "the world of that time" — extending from the beginning of creation to the Genesis flood (2 Peter 3:5-6); the second period — "the heavens and Earth that now exist " (2 Peter 3:7) — extending from the flood to the final Day of the Lord, at which time the Earth will be destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3:7) and the present heavens "will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved " (2 Peter 3:10); and the third period — "new heavens and a new Earth in which righteousness dwells " (2 Peter 3:13) ó extending throughout eternity future. If he had believed in a Jewish millennium following this present age 2 Peter 3 would have been the appropriate place to mention it, but he makes no mention of a millennium, much less a Jewish millennium, placing the entirety of Earth history within the three time frames.

....

Appendix


Biblical prophecy says nothing about modern Israel. In fact, far from the formation of modern Israel being a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, it is, if anything, a major instrumentality in the hand of God to sustain Israel in its divinely imposed hardening.

Christian Zionists claim that the establishment of Israel as a nation on May 14, 1948, fulfilled Biblical prophecies. The following Old Testament prophecies are samples from a larger group of passages that these Biblical interpreters say were fulfilled in 1948:

1. Jeremiah 29:14, it is said, predicted the founding of the modern state of Israel. But the context of Jeremiah 29 makes it clear that the predicted "restoration" after the completion of the seventy years of Babylonian exile (29:10), refers to the return from exile under Zerubbabel in 536 B.C.

2. Isaiah 11:11, it is said, speaks of a "second time" that God would restore the remnant to the land, the first being the return from Babylon in 536 B.C., the second being the establishment of modern Israel in 1948. But the context of Isaiah 11 makes it clear that Israel’s first deliverance was from Egypt under Moses (11:16) with its second restoration being from the nations into which the Jews of the Assyrian/Babylonian captivity had dispersed.

3. Zechariah 8:7, it is said, predicted that God "will save [his] people from the east country and the west country, and?bring them to dwell in the midst of Jerusalem." It is, however, a reach to see this prediction as referring to the modern state of Israel. In fact, the passage speaks of the faithfulness and righteousness of the inhabitants of Jerusalem in that day (8:8), something that is definitely not true of present Jerusalem. Much more likely is it that Zechariah was predicting the return of exiles during the days of Ezra, Nehemiah, and after (see Ezra 7:1-10; Nehemiah 11:1-2) that, again, pointed typically forward to the antitypical new Paradise of God.

4. Ezekiel 36:24-26, it is said, predicted that Israel would be restored to the land "in unbelief" which agrees with the situation in Israel today. But the passage does not speak of a restoration "in unbelief." God does not reward disobedience. Verse 33 states: "On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited," clearly implying that those who are "restored" have first been spiritually cleansed, thereby meeting the requirement of Leviticus 26:40-42: "...if they confess their iniquity...; if their uncircumcised heart is humbled..., then I will remember my covenant...and I will remember the land."

5. Amos 9:14-15, it is said, declares that this condition of permanent national establishment that would someday prevail simply was not true of any Old Testament restoration. But given the fact that James in Acts 15:16-17 applied the prophecy immediately preceding these two verses to the church of this age, the restoration envisioned here most likely describes in pastoral terms the rejuvenated cosmos.

 

[Pilgrim]

We had missionaries at our church today speaking about there mission work with Israel.

They support the bible texts which speak about the return of the Jews to Israel.

Their work is primarily focused on helping them return.

They were selling books which revealed they were coming from a Zionism perspective. (They were selling David Pawsons book).

Is Zionism biblically sound?

I find it difficult to suss out where some Israel focused groups are coming from in their soteriology at times. Hence the question.

Maybe it would be better to ask them what they believe rather than coming on here and asking us about persons unnamed with whom probably none here have any familiarity. I know you are looking for information on this issue and apparently don't know much about it, but if you ask a rather vague question as with the OP, the responses are going to tend to be all over the map or perhaps will not address what it is you are really looking for.

From a strictly confessional Reformed standpoint, any form of Christian Zionism is probably not kosher since the confessions don't teach it. Most if not all confessional Reformed churches (including confessional Reformed Baptist churches) are not going to allow any form of Christian Zionism to be taught. This was one of the issues that led to a split in the Orthodox Presbyterian church in 1937, with the Bible Presbyterian church being formed that enshrined premillenialism in their version of the Westminster Standards.

Christian Zionism is also somewhat of a nebulous term. Given the various understandings and usages of it, it could be applied to men and entities as diverse as John Hagee, Hal Lindsay, the Rapture Ready website, Charles Ryrie, John MacArthur, C.H. Spurgeon and J.C. Ryle. It can include anything from historic premillenialists (i.e. nondispensationalists) who believe that the Bible teaches that the Jews will be restored to the land (Ryle, Spurgeon, Bonar, M'Cheyne) to more mainstream dispensationalists--whether classic or Progressive (MacArthur, Ryrie) to heretics who teach that the Jews do not need to acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah.

 

[Jon 316]

We had missionaries at our church today speaking about there mission work with Israel.

They support the bible texts which speak about the return of the Jews to Israel.

Their work is primarily focused on helping them return.

They were selling books which revealed they were coming from a Zionism perspective. (They were selling David Pawsons book).

Is Zionism biblically sound?

I find it difficult to suss out where some Israel focused groups are coming from in their soteriology at times. Hence the question.

Maybe it would be better to ask them what they believe rather than coming on here and asking us about persons unnamed with whom probably none here have any familiarity. I know you are looking for information on this issue and apparently don't know much about it, but if you ask a rather vague question as with the OP, the responses are going to tend to be all over the map or perhaps will not address what it is you are really looking for.

From a strictly confessional Reformed standpoint, any form of Christian Zionism is probably not kosher since the confessions don't teach it. Most if not all confessional Reformed churches (including confessional Reformed Baptist churches) are not going to allow any form of Christian Zionism to be taught. This was one of the issues that led to a split in the Orthodox Presbyterian church in 1937, with the Bible Presbyterian church being formed that enshrined premillenialism in their version of the Westminster Standards.

Christian Zionism is also somewhat of a nebulous term. Given the various understandings and usages of it, it could be applied to men and entities as diverse as John Hagee, Hal Lindsay, the Rapture Ready website, Charles Ryrie, John MacArthur, C.H. Spurgeon and J.C. Ryle. It can include anything from historic premillenialists (i.e. nondispensationalists) who believe that the Bible teaches that the Jews will be restored to the land (Ryle, Spurgeon, Bonar, M'Cheyne) to more mainstream dispensationalists--whether classic or Progressive (MacArthur, Ryrie) to heretics who teach that the Jews do not need to acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah.

Firstly, I am not sure what is vague about the question

Is Zionism biblically sound?

Secondly, you obviously did not find it vague either, since your answer proved insightful and helpful. This only leaves me to wonder; why the expression of frustration in your first paragraph? It seems needless. Like I said, I dont think there is anything vague in the question

Is Zionism biblically sound?

If you feel that the context I included has only served to 'foggy the issue' I apologise. perhaps the question could have stood alone without the context.

In regards to the group, I did include a link to their website which explains what they are about.

 

[CDM]

Don't forget that many of those in Israel today (especially in government) who claim to be ethnic Jews are, in fact, not.

It's not just American politicians and PAC's that use and mock the modern American evangelicals.

 

[Pilgrim]

Firstly, I am not sure what is vague about the question

As I noted in my previous post, "Christian Zionism" can mean anything from Spurgeon's views to the heretical dual covenant theology. (Everyone here would say the latter is heretical, but many would not consider Spurgeon's prophetical views to rise to the level of heresy, even though the majority on the board would disagree with them.)

You didn't seem to be getting the kinds of answers you were looking for, and only posted the link to the particular group you were interested in some time later. That's why I stated it was vague, because it didn't get at what this group believes, but simply assumed that everyone knew what they taught based on the label of "Christian Zionism."

Secondly, you obviously did not find it vague either, since your answer proved insightful and helpful. This only leaves me to wonder; why the expression of frustration in your first paragraph? It seems needless. Like I said, I dont think there is anything vague in the question

See above. However, perhaps my first paragraph was too harsh and a little over the top.

 

[Jon 316]

Christian Zionism is also somewhat of a nebulous term. Given the various understandings and usages of it, it could be applied to men and entities as diverse as John Hagee, Hal Lindsay, the Rapture Ready website, Charles Ryrie, John MacArthur, C.H. Spurgeon and J.C. Ryle. It can include anything from historic premillenialists (i.e. nondispensationalists) who believe that the Bible teaches that the Jews will be restored to the land (Ryle, Spurgeon, Bonar, M'Cheyne) to more mainstream dispensationalists--whether classic or Progressive (MacArthur, Ryrie) to heretics who teach that the Jews do not need to acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah.

So, the reformed guys mentioned here, is their Zionism simply the conviction that the Jews would return to Israel?

 

[MrMerlin777]

Zionism and the Reformed faith are not compatable.

Zionist wish to "restore" national Israel and ignore the "Israel of God" to the tune of numbers of oppressed Palestinian Christians.

 

[Knoxienne]

Zionism and the Reformed faith are not compatable.

Zionist wish to "restore" national Israel and ignore the "Israel of God" to the tune of numbers of oppressed Palestinian Christians.

Lebanese Christians also.

 

[Jon 316]

So, is God completely finished with Israel as a nation then?

 

[MrMerlin777]

So, is God completely finished with Israel as a nation then?

This is only my opinion but I believe it can be supported with Scripture as well. I tend to believe that God was through with national Israel and it's "shadows" when He brought the temple down in 70AD. Just as Christ had prophesied in Matthew 24.

 

[Knoxienne]

So, is God completely finished with Israel as a nation then?

This is only my opinion but I believe it can be supported with Scripture as well. I tend to believe that God was through with national Israel and it's "shadows" when He brought the temple down in 70AD. Just as Christ had prophesied in Matthew 24.

I agree. I believe the modern nation of Israel to have been created out of political expediency more than anything else.

 

[Jon 316]

So, is God completely finished with Israel as a nation then?

This is only my opinion but I believe it can be supported with Scripture as well. I tend to believe that God was through with national Israel and it's "shadows" when He brought the temple down in 70AD. Just as Christ had prophesied in Matthew 24.

What do you make of the following text though?

Rom 11:25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[MrMerlin777]

I believe Paul is speaking here of the "Israel of God", His church. All of which will be saved.

 

[CovenantalBaptist]

Brother Jon,

These may be of help to you:
Respecting "Messianic Judaism" which is related to Christian Zionism:
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Judaism-Not-Jewish-Baruch-Maoz/dp/1857927877/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236034908&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: Judaism Is Not Jewish: Baruch Maoz: Books[/ame]

And for a Reformed amillennial take on Romans 11 - see this book beginning on p.141:
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Future-Anthony-Hoekema/dp/0802808514/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236034762&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: The Bible and the Future: Anthony A. Hoekema: Books[/ame]