Thanks for the book tips (I have so many books I need to add to my list). I checked out the reviews to get a feel of what they are about. What is the authors take on Zionism?
Is Christian Zionism kosha from a reformed perspective?
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Thanks for the book tips (I have so many books I need to add to my list). I checked out the reviews to get a feel of what they are about. What is the authors take on Zionism?
Galatians220
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I've owned the Maoz book "Judaism is Not Jewish" virtually since its publication. It's a worthwhile reference addition to any Reformed believer's library, and it's worth multiple "reads." Just my 
worth.
Margaret
worth.Margaret
I just preached the latter half of Exodus 12, the Exodus itself. Doctrinally, the focus for the message was God's effectual call.
Long ago, I recognized that Israel-the-nation has always been a composite of Abraham's natural seed and converts/incorporated. But in my preparation for this week's sermon, this passage strongly reinforced my view.
Once you've gone through the plagues, and the original Passover preparation and keeping, you see how God is speaking to the world in words that call to salvation on one hand, and harden in judgment in another. Upwards of 2.5 million people answered the call of God to leave Egypt. Even with a miraculous "baby boom," there is a simple chronological roadblock to the creation of this numerous a people, simply relying on the biological heirs of Jacob.
Exodus 12:38 explains that this was a "mixed multitude," on the one hand you had Judahites, Ephraimites, Benjamites, etc.; on the other hand there were such like Egyptians, Ethiopians, and Edomites, to name a few.
Now, we should note Moses' style here, in chs. 12 & 13, as he interweaves instruction on the creation of Passover, and its future memorial celebration around the events of the Passover-and-Exodus event.
Note then v.41, "At the end of 430 years, on that very day, all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt;" and following verses that define those who may join in the sacramental meal of unity, note vv.49-50, "'There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.' All the people of Israel did just as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron."
Moses point seems to be this: If you were a part of the Passover-and Exodus event, if you responded to God's effectual call, there was ONE LAW that applied, whether you could claim a "pedigree" to Abraham or not--if you came out, then the appellation "people of Israel" belonged to you. If this were so in ages to come "in the land," how much more so when all these people, including aliens, answered God's call to leave the accursed land?
See, God was already answering his promise to Abraham to make him the father of many nations, calling into one people those from many kindreds, tongues, tribes, and nations. Here in the "nativity" of the nation (to use Calvin's felicitous expression) was an inaugural fulfillment of even that eschatological promise.
**********
"Israel" has from its humblest beginnings been a conversion people, around a genetic core. It was stupidity and blindness of massive proportions that made many Jews take unreasonable pride in their stock, or in their circumcision, or in any outward identity.
Once the Christ was come, any reason to confine "Israel" to one stock also disappeared forever. When Jewish stock come to faith in Christ, they have returned to Israel (which is Christ), and to that ancient, eternal kingdom promised to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David.
*************
A final thought: (this had nothing to do with my sermon, BTW)
Since ethnic Jews from that region historically are indistinguishable from Palestinians, and many other nationalities from there, it is worth pondering that many Palestinians, whether Christian or Moslem, have to be the descendants of Jewish converts to Christianity in the days of the Apostles and afterward. They fled Judea under persecution from the religious Jews, or in advance of the Romans in AD67 (as Jesus told them to do).
Naturally, many of them would have moved back home into those regions after the Romans finished their depredations and deportations. So these people cared not one bit to call themselves "Jews" anymore, both for political, as well as for theological reasons.
So, now we have this tragic situation of having Jewish-sponsored ethnic cleansing and subjugation literally of their own kin, who centuries ago stopped considering themselves as "Jewish", but who have as much claim genetically to Abraham, and even more than many religious Jews of today would have.
Sure, many of those families left the Christian faith during the centuries, and some were converted to Moslem faith, and migration has always impacted those lands. But it is a gross injustice for the so-called "children of Israel" in a modern political sense of the term, to apply one law to themselves, and another law to many families who simply left Judaism centuries ago when the gospel was first preached "in Jerusalem, in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth." Why? Merely on the basis of a "permanent" claim to real estate that others have as much or more right to own.
Long ago, I recognized that Israel-the-nation has always been a composite of Abraham's natural seed and converts/incorporated. But in my preparation for this week's sermon, this passage strongly reinforced my view.
Once you've gone through the plagues, and the original Passover preparation and keeping, you see how God is speaking to the world in words that call to salvation on one hand, and harden in judgment in another. Upwards of 2.5 million people answered the call of God to leave Egypt. Even with a miraculous "baby boom," there is a simple chronological roadblock to the creation of this numerous a people, simply relying on the biological heirs of Jacob.
Exodus 12:38 explains that this was a "mixed multitude," on the one hand you had Judahites, Ephraimites, Benjamites, etc.; on the other hand there were such like Egyptians, Ethiopians, and Edomites, to name a few.
Now, we should note Moses' style here, in chs. 12 & 13, as he interweaves instruction on the creation of Passover, and its future memorial celebration around the events of the Passover-and-Exodus event.
Note then v.41, "At the end of 430 years, on that very day, all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt;" and following verses that define those who may join in the sacramental meal of unity, note vv.49-50, "'There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.' All the people of Israel did just as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron."
Moses point seems to be this: If you were a part of the Passover-and Exodus event, if you responded to God's effectual call, there was ONE LAW that applied, whether you could claim a "pedigree" to Abraham or not--if you came out, then the appellation "people of Israel" belonged to you. If this were so in ages to come "in the land," how much more so when all these people, including aliens, answered God's call to leave the accursed land?
See, God was already answering his promise to Abraham to make him the father of many nations, calling into one people those from many kindreds, tongues, tribes, and nations. Here in the "nativity" of the nation (to use Calvin's felicitous expression) was an inaugural fulfillment of even that eschatological promise.
**********
"Israel" has from its humblest beginnings been a conversion people, around a genetic core. It was stupidity and blindness of massive proportions that made many Jews take unreasonable pride in their stock, or in their circumcision, or in any outward identity.
Once the Christ was come, any reason to confine "Israel" to one stock also disappeared forever. When Jewish stock come to faith in Christ, they have returned to Israel (which is Christ), and to that ancient, eternal kingdom promised to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David.
*************
A final thought: (this had nothing to do with my sermon, BTW)
Since ethnic Jews from that region historically are indistinguishable from Palestinians, and many other nationalities from there, it is worth pondering that many Palestinians, whether Christian or Moslem, have to be the descendants of Jewish converts to Christianity in the days of the Apostles and afterward. They fled Judea under persecution from the religious Jews, or in advance of the Romans in AD67 (as Jesus told them to do).
Naturally, many of them would have moved back home into those regions after the Romans finished their depredations and deportations. So these people cared not one bit to call themselves "Jews" anymore, both for political, as well as for theological reasons.
So, now we have this tragic situation of having Jewish-sponsored ethnic cleansing and subjugation literally of their own kin, who centuries ago stopped considering themselves as "Jewish", but who have as much claim genetically to Abraham, and even more than many religious Jews of today would have.
Sure, many of those families left the Christian faith during the centuries, and some were converted to Moslem faith, and migration has always impacted those lands. But it is a gross injustice for the so-called "children of Israel" in a modern political sense of the term, to apply one law to themselves, and another law to many families who simply left Judaism centuries ago when the gospel was first preached "in Jerusalem, in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth." Why? Merely on the basis of a "permanent" claim to real estate that others have as much or more right to own.
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Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
CovenantalBaptist
Puritan Board Freshman
This open letter by many Presbyterian, Reformed and Reformed Baptist pastors and Seminary professors also speaks to the issue of Zionism from some within our community.
Thanks for all the input folks. Since Sunday I have come to realise something significant.
I have been holding two opposing views on Eschatology simutaniously without fully realising it.
Having been saved in the brethren movement I have been influenced by dispensationalism.
However I have mainly, somehow, (probably through the reading of scripture), adopted a more covenantal position (The new covenant and the church are at the heart of God's purposes).
I've also began to identify some exegetical/appocalyptic/prophetic assumptions about the end times.
Again, cheers for the comments, links and book recommendations.
I have just purchased Stephen Sizers Zions Christian Soldiers? which is a recent book which strongly argues against Zionism.
I have been holding two opposing views on Eschatology simutaniously without fully realising it.
Having been saved in the brethren movement I have been influenced by dispensationalism.
However I have mainly, somehow, (probably through the reading of scripture), adopted a more covenantal position (The new covenant and the church are at the heart of God's purposes).
I've also began to identify some exegetical/appocalyptic/prophetic assumptions about the end times.
Again, cheers for the comments, links and book recommendations.
I have just purchased Stephen Sizers Zions Christian Soldiers? which is a recent book which strongly argues against Zionism.
Ok, when I first posted this thread, I had very little understanding of the exact nature of Christian Zionism.
I've now almost finished Sizer's book and I have scanned through some of John Hagee, and some other Zionist whos name evades me just now.
My conclusion? Those guys are scary! Really scary. Talk about scripture twisting, context ignoring, eschatological speculation, not to mention imaginative sensasionalism that would put the top 10 tabloids to shame!
I'm careful with my use of the word herasy. But I'm not sure what else you can call it? It seems to be nothing other than the reviving of the old covenant which Jesus has fulfilled!
I've now almost finished Sizer's book and I have scanned through some of John Hagee, and some other Zionist whos name evades me just now.
My conclusion? Those guys are scary! Really scary. Talk about scripture twisting, context ignoring, eschatological speculation, not to mention imaginative sensasionalism that would put the top 10 tabloids to shame!
I'm careful with my use of the word herasy. But I'm not sure what else you can call it? It seems to be nothing other than the reviving of the old covenant which Jesus has fulfilled!
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