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Discussion in 'Cults & World Religions' started by Pergamum, Aug 15, 2011.
Pyromaniacs: Pornographic Divination
Is Driscoll now claiming to "see things"?
Driscoll has long claimed to "hear" things, so seeing things is just a natural progression. I am never one to deny that God can do anything, and certainly he could give visions to Mark Driscoll. However it is also possible that he is just full of himself. I don't know the circumstances of this case, but if someone is demonstrating certain behaviors as an adult, it is not all that big of a stretch to conclude that they were abused as a child.
Driscoll's creepy factor is just too high for me. I would not trust him with my daughters, my wife, and in fact, I wouldn't touch him with a ten foot cattle prod. There are good teachers we can listen to without having to have the more prurient regions of our wicked imaginations ignited. Philipians 4:8
I cannot understand why Piper does not yank his chain, hard.
Interesting that he points out...
Really?! Seems the "news" got out some how.
Given that Piper is in the 'open but cautious' camp - what basis does he have to deny that Driscoll's revelations are not legit? Don't they all subscribe to the Grudem line of thinking that NT prophecy can be full of errors?
Piper is supposed to be his "mentor." When you look at the totality of Driscol's output, any number of his quotes, the link to "christian nymphos" on his blog, even apart from the "special revelation" nonsense, there is more than enough "public smoke" to merit a serious trip to the theological woodshed, In my humble opinion. your mileage may vary.
... I've heard Driscoll say something to the effect of hearing something audible for his conversion, and he isn't proud of it. He just believed it was clearly God telling him to preach. Aside from that, ... what is all this talk about NT prophecies could be false? Source? I HIGHLY doubt that Grudem would actually claim that.
---------- Post added at 11:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 AM ----------
I really don't get what you're talking about. Are you claiming that his sexually perverse imagination got the better of him?
I was trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, and have been for a long time...but after a while it's hard to endure the cumulative evidence that he's headed off the reservation.
Here is what Grudem says in The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today (emphasis added):
You can do some quick research on this on the Internet (do a search for Grudem prophecy error), but he discusses his view in this book: Amazon.com: The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today (Revised Edition) (9781581342437): Wayne Grudem: Books
I would bet that Piper doesn't know that much is happening.
I'm not going to discredit somebody because they are semi-charismatic, I like Piper (if God didn't lead me to him, I probably wouldn't be here today), Grudem systematic theology is probably great (I haven't read it), Martyn Llloyd Jones took a moderate position and few here would say something negative about him, also I believe Phil Johnson mentioned Matt Chandler in one of his blog posts in a positive light. Phil Johnson also likes them:
Now, I'm happy that Seattle has been given a bigger christian influence because of Mr. Driscoll however I would also like to see for greater Christian maturity resulting from it, something better.
Also, If I was getting the types of visions he is getting according to Phil Johnson, I wouldn't say the Holy Spirit was giving it to me, in fact, I'd blame it on the exact opposite.
I feel like some of us should write and sign a letter to Dr. Piper, if anybody is going to convince Driscoll otherwise, it's Dr. Piper.
When a particular church is "about" the pastor, there's a problem. Personality, or Preaching, or Publicity. What we're supposed to be "about" is Christ (eyes on him), and being his bride.
I don't care if its Piper, or JonnyMac, or Driscoll. The church has had issues with "personality" since the days of Corinth (1Cor.1:12) or men like Diotrephes (3Jn.1:9).
I think Christ designed his church to be a plug-and-play kind of organization. The front-men come and go; they move on or they die off. But the church continues. That's how its supposed to be, but when replacing the last guy becomes a matter of recruiting a clone, or maintaining the weekly "draw," the purpose for coming together has been lost.
Trust me, as a man with a normal ego I want people to come to our church, and I wish that my preaching would draw them in. Frankly, it's good that the folks who are at my church aren't there because of me, but because they are parts of the body (1Cor.12:14). THEY are the bride. Being the church is about fulfilling your calling (belonging), and listening to the gospel-Voice of your Good Shepherd. What sort of "voice" is being heard, when the pastor is talking about the TV flickering in his head? "Come and hear me, because I'm a visionary."
What will happen to these "mega" churches when their celebrity-pastors are gone? Will half the body evaporate? Ecclesiology matters.
Earns a hearty amen from me. Thank you, Pastor.
I don't quite understand what the big deal is. Did Driscoll claim to be a prophet?
Even Spurgeon had premonitions that were much more specific than Driscoll's. Shall we throw Spurgeon under the bus too?
Spurgeon and prophecy « A Living Text
And from me, Thank you Pastor.
Piper never apparently even yanked John Wimber's chain hard, so why would he do that with Driscoll?
---------- Post added at 01:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 PM ----------
I think you've failed to listen to the Driscoll message or read the transcript of it if you think that the premonitions Spurgeon spoke of were "much more specific than Driscoll's"
I don't listen to Driscoll all that often, but it seems I've heard him mention this sort of thing a few times, especially the voice telling him to become a pastor. He has taken pains to say he doesn't believe it makes him better or more spiritual than others, and that he himself is at a loss to fully explain it. That allows me to retain respect for him, though I'm still skeptical.
My own dad, a Reformed pastor, heard an audible voice telling him to go into the ministry. He can't explain it either, except to say he does sense that it came from God. But he so seldom mentions it that I started responding to this thread without even remembering it happened.
Thank you Rev. Buchanan, excellent comment as always and I think that you have hit on the real issue, ego. There is a video on the Gospel Coalition website where Mark Dever sits down with Mark Driscoll and James Macdonald and discusses their churches. Driscoll and Macdonald both have a central location where they preach, along with several satellite locations where their message is delivered via video. Dever asks to obvious question, why not just raise up elders and pastors and plant new churches with pastors who preach their own sermons instead of insisting on being the pastor of all these churches. The answer they gave, not is so many words, was that these satellite locations would not be nearly as successful if someone else was preaching in person rather than themselves via video. I can't decide which is more distressing, the level of arrogance portrayed in their attitude, or the sad fact that they are probably right.
He is such a disgrace that I cannot believe a true believer would belong and attend his church! He is in dire need of prayer and repentance.
This clip is over five years old, if that matters to anyone.
The Driscoll clip is from 2008, according to his defenders on Pyro - not quite 5 years old. As has been noted, the cumulative effect of Driscoll's teaching and behavior warrants corrective action from some and avoidance for the rest of us. I join with hearty "Amen!" the notion that celebrity "pastors" are problematic, regardless of agenda or motives (both of which can make things much worse).
Pardon me, then. Three years old.
Three years old explains the Mickey Mouse shirt. That's when he was going through that phase, I guess. Or preparing to expand to Orange County.
This isn't a new thing, but it is disturbing. I appreciate that Driscoll preaches the Gospel, but on this particular point I definitely would not defend his practice or behavior.
Is he charging people money for his "visions"? Is it the focus of his ministry? Is he using it to promote his own "greatness" or Christ's glory? Is he just lying about the visions? Do the stories he tells check out? Can he support his claim by scripture? are some questions that pop into my mind after listening to and reading it.
I'm sure Mr. Driscoll struggles with pride, a lot, and I'm sure there are lots of things that could be tweaked to make his ministry more God glorifying. However, last time I checked, there has only ever been one Shepard who did have perfect life and ministry. I'm not a huge fan of him but to through him under the bus over this, in my opinion, is a shame.
Why is this thread in the "Cults & World Religion" forum?
I realize Driscoll is generally not thought well of in these parts, but is this quote seriously considered cultish?
The "throwing under the bus" is in part reference to the article attached. If the writer does not throw him, then he comes about as close as one can without doing so. Criticism can be done with love (I do not mean to imply all criticism in this thread is without love), especially when it is a brother in Christ. And I agree, when one is in public ministry, one should expect this to happen.
And I have to say, I really enjoy your avatar.
That's why issues like this tear my mind apart. Some godly pastors greatly used by God have had experiences like that, I don't want to throw anybody out because there a continoulist (unless of course they are like anything we see on the television or in many other circles).
I still think his (Driscolls) "visions" where a bit weird for something supposedly coming from the Holy Spirit.
I've also unliked Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church on Facebook for the meantime.