Is God Converting Muslims through dreams?

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scottmaciver

scottmaciver

Puritan Board Sophomore
Todd Friel on Wretched uploaded this video a few weeks ago. I heard a missionary speaking in my church, not long after I was converted, who said that many Muslim's were coming to Christ through dreams. I simply accepted what he had said was reality, but I've never heard anyone discuss the question from a Biblical standpoint.

What do all you PB theologians make of the suggestion of God converting Muslims through dreams and of Friel's thoughts on it?
 
Though I am not a theologian in the strict sense I believe Mr. Friel is spot on in the biblical sense.

PS. I am glad Our Lord gives faith by hearing, in that seeing the video seemed rather pretentious in its presentation from a visual standpoint.
 
A needed distinction first.

We need not believe God is converting people "through dreams' since the means of conversion is the Word of God and preaching. Sometimes they have dreams that make them pay particular heed to the Word or to the Messenger who comes in the name of the Lord. I have met several who have sought me out due to dreams and wanted to know what the Bible actually said. Or they said they were interested in my words because they had just had a dream the night before. God uses strange providences to bring people to the Word of God, but it is the Word of God which ordinarily converts (Cornelius in Acts 10 was not converted by a dream but was rather persuaded to receive Peter and his words well due to a dream, Cornelius appearing unconverted and even attempting to fall down and worship Peter even after the vision...). So, I think this is a vital distinction - it is not proper to speak of "conversion due to dreams" even if we do acknowledge that dreams do, in fact, happen.

If you are asking, however, whether people have dreams persuading them to seek out more info...then, yes, it appears that they do.
 
Pergamum said:
A needed distinction first.

We need not believe God is converting people "through dreams' since the means of conversion is the Word of God and preaching. Sometimes they have dreams that make them pay particular heed to the Word or to the Messenger who comes in the name of the Lord. I have met several who have sought me out due to dreams and wanted to know what the Bible actually said. Or they said they were interested in my words because they had just had a dream the night before. God uses strange providences to bring people to the Word of God, but it is the Word of God which ordinarily converts (Cornelius in Acts 10 was not converted by a dream but was rather persuaded to receive Peter and his words well due to a dream, Cornelius appearing unconverted and even attempting to fall down and worship Peter even after the vision...). So, I think this is a vital distinction - it is not proper to speak of "conversion due to dreams" even if we do acknowledge that dreams do, in fact, happen.

If you are asking, however, whether people have dreams persuading them to seek out more info...then, yes, it appears that they do.
Click to expand...

Curious if you believe these dreams came directly from God without any information about Jesus or scripture beforehand? :)
 
earl40 said:
Curious if you believe these dreams came directly from God without any information about Jesus or scripture beforehand? :)
Click to expand...

I have no idea where they come from.

The possibilities would be (1) God, (2) the dreamer's own conscience/mind, or (3) the devil or his demons.

Muslims do have a version of the Prophet Jesus in their Qur'an and Hadith. He is the only Prophet to have had a supernatural birth, life, and death, and who is without sin. But I'd hate to give any credit to this poisonous book.

And sometimes they hear about what Christians believe. On one occasion a man stopped his business and asked me if I had a bible and could read the first portions of John's Gospel chapter 1 because he heard a friend say this told about Jesus. So, we ended up reading and talking for an hour.

The Covenanters also had dreams. None of them doubted the ordinary means of the Word or Sola Scripture.
 
An important distinction Pregamum. However, the suggestion both in the video and from those I have heard speaking, is that people are not only persuaded to seek out more information, but that they are converted through dreams.
 
scottmaciver said:
An important distinction Pregamum. However, the suggestion both in the video and from those I have heard speaking, is that people are not only persuaded to seek out more information, but that they are converted through dreams.
Click to expand...

I think there is probably a distinction to be made in most all examples I have heard or I have seen personally.

Nobody I know says that the dream itself converted them.

One study of 2 different people-groups I know of details how 15-20% of new converts credit a dream as having profound spiritual impact on their journey of seeking.
 
We want to stand for the word of God. The Word of God says that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. So we think "dreams" are weird and don't fit into any kind of doctrinal paradigm. I get this. But one passage that really struck me this last Christmas was the star that appears to the magi. Have you ever really thought about what in the world is going on here. The star appearing to them and getting them to Jerusalem is weird enough. But then how about when the star departs from Jerusalem, and leads them 6 miles down the road to Bethlehem, and seems to hover over a small house? Okay, this is weird. Really, really weird. Too weird also for the teachers of Israel, who evidently didn't even both to make the 6 mile journey. What I'm trying to say is that there's danger on both sides of the question.

I think Pergamum, your distinction is really good: there's a difference between God using dreams and God converting people through dreams. I heard first hand from a young woman from the Middle East, from a strong Muslim family, the story of her testimony. It involved a powerful dream about hell, and Jesus; but the dream wasn't what converted her. The dream got her to church, where she gradually came to understand more and more, and somewhere along the way, low and behold, she believed. I really appreciated, especially, how at one point, she even shared (in her testimony) how she still continued to struggle with doubts about Jesus, even after the dream. This seemed to have the ring of truth to me. It wasn't some magic dream experience that solved all her problems or even got her saved. But wrestling through her doubts, learning more about Christ through the ministry of the church (this was actually John Stott's church), and I'm sure being prayed for a ton, she put her faith in Christ. I loved hearing her story and have no reason to doubt it.
 
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At family worship this evening I was struck with a verse in our reading of Acts 2, "they that gladly received the word were baptised." It is only through the word that we have knowledge,else ignorant believing is presumption. I would not limit God by our limitations yet He has ordained means. The entrance of thy word give the light. He may provoke to seek by using a dream, but there must be knowledge of who one believes in, and the necessity to do so.
 
Romans 10:17 "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." People must hear the Gospel first then......
 
I have heard many instances of this among Muslim communities who all seem to be located within the 10/40 window. Whereas I have never heard of Muslims within Islamic communities in say the UK having such dreams. I have a friend who is very much involved in work within the Islamic world and we have discussed this a number of times and he feels that such conversions seem genuine. Like many or most folk on the PB, I am a cessationist and it has caused me concerns. It is not the norm in places where there is an established church but in closed countries where the only way people may hear the gospel is via radio broadcasts as there is no established church, or only an underground church. I cannot explain it and it doesn't fit in my theological framework but if it is a genuine work of God then all glory to Him.
 
I am not sure if it pertains exactly to the video but I believe there are overtones.

In this video at 7:44 a question is asked regarding knowing Jesus without a Bible.

After Nichols, Thomas and Sproul, Ian Hamilton answers the question from a different angle where I think it may pertain to the OP.

 
Is it possible to hear the gospel and the Word of God, revealed by God, in a dream? And therefore converted through the Word of God, directly by God? At least in today's era where some may argue many spiritual gifts have ceased?
 
Look at the content of the dreams as they have been related. If a preacher taught what was in these dreams no sound evangelical would consider the message sufficient to convert anyone. "Come to me." To whom? Do they know Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the living God, our prophet, priest, and king, who died for our sins, was buried, and rose again according to the Scriptures? Their dreams might have manifested some flow of thought and feeling in which they were already moving, but it did not reveal anything concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. These dreams are not from God, and a faithful pastor who cares for their souls would warn them from placing any faith in their dreams because of the danger of delusion and fanaticism.
 
Pergamum said:
A needed distinction first.

We need not believe God is converting people "through dreams' since the means of conversion is the Word of God and preaching. Sometimes they have dreams that make them pay particular heed to the Word or to the Messenger who comes in the name of the Lord. I have met several who have sought me out due to dreams and wanted to know what the Bible actually said. Or they said they were interested in my words because they had just had a dream the night before. God uses strange providences to bring people to the Word of God, but it is the Word of God which ordinarily converts (Cornelius in Acts 10 was not converted by a dream but was rather persuaded to receive Peter and his words well due to a dream, Cornelius appearing unconverted and even attempting to fall down and worship Peter even after the vision...). So, I think this is a vital distinction - it is not proper to speak of "conversion due to dreams" even if we do acknowledge that dreams do, in fact, happen.

If you are asking, however, whether people have dreams persuading them to seek out more info...then, yes, it appears that they do.
Click to expand...

A very good distinction.

I'm yet to meet someone who says, "I was converted by a dream." Although, I have met many former Muslims who have said, "I had a dream that caused me to start thinking about Jesus and Christianity."
 
Pergamum said:
We need not believe God is converting people "through dreams' since the means of conversion is the Word of God and preaching. Sometimes they have dreams that make them pay particular heed to the Word or to the Messenger who comes in the name of the Lord.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what we too experienced on the mission field. People wouldn't say the dream converted them; they would report the dream caused them to pay attention to the gospel they had already heard or to learn more about Jesus. They ended up putting their faith in Christ, not in the dream. But the dream helped get them to that point.

I don't think this is particularly a Muslim thing. I think it's common in many cultures where people attach significance to their dreams.

Should we say with certainty that such a dream "came from God?" No, I think we should avoid claiming to know exactly how the Spirit has worked to bring an individual around to listening to the gospel, and if we're going to speak about messages from God we should be pointing people to the Bible and to Bible preaching. But God does use life events to get people's attention, and sometimes a dream may be one of those events.
 
There is a helpful discussion on this in Calvin's Institutes. Calvin brings out 2 key things:
1. Word snd Spirit belong inseparately together. Therefore any dreams etc - apart from the Word - should be treated with real suspicion.
2. Calvin warns that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 2 Cor 11:14. Therefore apart from the Word, how does one know if the dream came from God or Satan?

Calvin's Institutes Bk 1, ch 9
 
jambo said:
I have heard many instances of this among Muslim communities who all seem to be located within the 10/40 window. Whereas I have never heard of Muslims within Islamic communities in say the UK having such dreams. I have a friend who is very much involved in work within the Islamic world and we have discussed this a number of times and he feels that such conversions seem genuine. Like many or most folk on the PB, I am a cessationist and it has caused me concerns. It is not the norm in places where there is an established church but in closed countries where the only way people may hear the gospel is via radio broadcasts as there is no established church, or only an underground church. I cannot explain it and it doesn't fit in my theological framework but if it is a genuine work of God then all glory to Him.
Click to expand...

Seems like you explained it well in that they "may hear the gospel is via radio broadcasts as there is no established church, or only an underground church." :)
 
deathtolife said:
I am not sure if it pertains exactly to the video but I believe there are overtones.

In this video at 7:44 a question is asked regarding knowing Jesus without a Bible.

After Nichols, Thomas and Sproul, Ian Hamilton answers the question from a different angle where I think it may pertain to the OP.

Click to expand...

So the question of...Can God work out of the ordinary means, which He ordained, to spread The Gospel possible? May I answer humbly...no...because whatever He ordains comes to pass, which includes the "ordinary means". This of course is not the answer given in the video. In my most humble opinion this is not the proper use of the word "cessationism" as heard in the video.
 
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JTB.SDG said:
We want to stand for the word of God. The Word of God says that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. So we think "dreams" are weird and don't fit into any kind of doctrinal paradigm. I get this. But one passage that really struck me this last Christmas was the star that appears to the magi. Have you ever really thought about what in the world is going on here. The star appearing to them and getting them to Jerusalem is weird enough. But then how about when the star departs from Jerusalem, and leads them 6 miles down the road to Bethlehem, and seems to hover over a small house? Okay, this is weird. Really, really weird. Too weird also for the teachers of Israel, who evidently didn't even both to make the 6 mile journey. What I'm trying to say is that there's danger on both sides of the question.

I think Pergamum, your distinction is really good: there's a difference between God using dreams and God converting people through dreams. I heard first hand from a young woman from the Middle East, from a strong Muslim family, the story of her testimony. It involved a powerful dream about hell, and Jesus; but the dream wasn't what converted her. The dream got her to church, where she gradually came to understand more and more, and somewhere along the way, low and behold, she believed. I really appreciated, especially, how at one point, she even shared (in her testimony) how she still continued to struggle with doubts about Jesus, even after the dream. This seemed to have the ring of truth to me. It wasn't some magic dream experience that solved all her problems or even got her saved. But wrestling through her doubts, learning more about Christ through the ministry of the church (this was actually John Stott's church), and I'm sure being prayed for a ton, she put her faith in Christ. I loved hearing her story and have no reason to doubt it.
Click to expand...

Think that the Lord is currently using whatever means available to get the message of Jesus into closed off Muslim areas, so would be using Satellite/Radio/Internet, and dreams to accomplish that getting goen. Also think the dreams prepare the way for the message to go out to them, as its the scriptures used by the Holy Spirit that saves lost sinners, as have heard testimony from missionaries they came to a village, and was met by Chief, who told them had a dream telling himto wait to receive people of the Book!
 
Dachaser said:
Think that the Lord is currently using whatever means available to get the message of Jesus into closed off Muslim areas, so would be using Satellite/Radio/Internet, and dreams to accomplish that getting goen. Also think the dreams prepare the way for the message to go out to them, as its the scriptures used by the Holy Spirit that saves lost sinners, as have heard testimony from missionaries they came to a village, and was met by Chief, who told them had a dream telling himto wait to receive people of the Book!
Click to expand...

The unmitigated "dream" way has passed, as believed by those who are consistent cessationists. :)
 
earl40 said:
The unmitigated "dream" way has passed, as believed by those who are consistent cessationists. :)
Click to expand...
God would still able to do that, but would not be the normative way he operates, just as while none today are giftedto heal/do miracles. God can and still does at times!
 
Dachaser said:
God would still able to do that, but would not be the normative way he operates, just as while none today are giftedto heal/do miracles. God can and still does at times!
Click to expand...

Able is one thing, and doing something in a way He does not ordain is another. Of course He is "able" but He cannot act contrary to how He said He will act.
 
The Confession itself says

God, in His ordinary providence, maketh use of means, yet is free to work without,
Click to expand...

But, we don't even have to posit this. The ordinary means ARE being used for conversion. But God may send many strange providences into this world. He did so in the times of the Covenanters, and he does so in the unreached world as well.
 
Rutherford, Alexandar Peden, and John Wishart all report providential dreams. The Reformed usually do not call these men liars.
 
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