Is it alright to be upset, or is my anger unfounded?

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davejonescue

Puritan Board Junior
I came home today to find this little video from our city. We are small town TX, and on the surface ooze Christian idealism. But for some reason, this little video upsets me. It starts with the traditional kids having fun, but then turns into an occasion of inebriation. On top of this, my local church canceled church in favor of Christmas because Christmas falls on a Sunday, and I go to the most conservative church in my community that is not KJV-Only. I think this is what may make me ditch Christmas for good. Not to humbug, but because this depicts the decimation of any gleaning of Christ from its observance, at least in my community. I am afraid to bring up my displeasure with canceling Lords Day worship so families can celebrate Christmas at home; but I dont want to be that guy. I am already treading on thin ice for pressing the issue of women leading mixed Bible studies at church in my new members class, and really, I have no other place to fellowship without driving 30-40 minutes each way; and that is a house church (Reformed Baptist) with about 8 people in a living room, plus I dont think my car will make it each week. Geesh its frustrating, or, is it just me. Not one single mention of Jesus.


 
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On top of this, my local church canceled church in favor of Christmas because Christmas falls on a Sunday, and I go to the most conservative church in my community that is not KJV-Only.
Go to a KJV-only church then.
Geesh its frustrating, or, is it just me. Not one single mention of Jesus.
The unfortunate irony in these two sentences.
 
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Go to a KJV-only church then.
I dont feel good considering a specific English text inspired (above all others, ) and, I don't know how that interpretation of inspiration plays into other doctrinal positions within the/that framework? It has been stated here and other places it is better to stay in a church you may have issues with, rather than stop going and be "homeless." So, thats where I am there. My main point is not to dwell on what my Church is doing for Christmas, but to use it as a context of my community corporately, and what aids in my anger of this add for "the holidays." These combined is starting to make me question the whole Christmas thing and how far it is from any gleaning of Christ. Was just wondering if I am off for that or am being legalistic?
 
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Please can you clarify - are you expecting to see a Christian message in this ad, and saddened because there is not one?

If so, why would you expect a secular advertisement to have a Christian message? And moreover, why would you want it to?
(I'm personally coming from the perspective of wanting the separation all secular festivities and entertainment with the Christian faith. I think it would become highly offensive if such an ad as this had tried to tack "Jesus" on.)


The issue with your local church is very serious - I leave that to the counsel of other PB members.
 
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Please can you clarify - are you expecting to see a Christian message in this ad, and saddened because there is not one?

If so, why would you expect a secular advertisement to have a Christian message? And moreover, why would you want it to?
(I'm personally coming from the perspective of wanting the separation all secular festivities and entertainment with the Christian faith. I think it would become highly offensive if such an ad as this had tried to tack "Jesus" on.)


The issue with your local church is very serious - I leave that to the counsel of other PB members.
I am upset that Christmas is being so united with carousing; at the expense of undermining the "Jesus the reason for the season" signs in half the towns yard. But you are right, a secular entity such as a local government shouldnt be expected to "take a stand" so to speak for the Christ in Christmas. And I shouldnt be surprised at this. Maybe it is the small town thing; and I just desire it would be one that does. And I wouldnt want an ad for Christmas festivities to be like this with Jesus added; I would simply want an ad for Christmas, when most people still regard it as a Christian holiday, to reverence Christ instead of Santa and drinking. I think thats what makes me angry; that the world knows most Christians celebrate the birth of Christ at this time, and yet, this is how they see "us" celebrate it. And by "us" it would be from the standpoint that 90% of the town would regard themselves as Christian.
 
I understand what you mean, and certainly agree with your sentiment when you say,
I think thats what makes me angry; that the world knows most Christians celebrate the birth of Christ at this time, and yet, this is how they see "us" celebrate it. And by "us" it would be from the standpoint that 90% of the town would regard themselves as Christian.

That being said, my thinking has changed recently from being similar to your own viewpoint to one now of actually rejecting Christmas as a Christian holiday. Amongst other sources, Dr McMahon's little book 'Bah Humbug' has been a significant influence in respect of this.
 
I dont feel good considering a specific English text inspired (above all others, ) and, I don't know how that interpretation of inspiration plays into other doctrinal positions within the/that framework? It has been stated here and other places it is better to stay in a church you may have issues with, rather than stop going and be "homeless."
But you are actually going to stop going to church and be “homeless” on the Lord’s Day, December 25, rather than go to a church that uses the same King James Bible that was used at the Westminster Assembly.

This is not a case where your church cancels service due to a sudden ice storm or an apparently deadly outbreak of disease. This is an unforced error.

To be fair though I don’t know what churches you are referring to and they would need more investigation; actually switching membership is a serious matter. An IFB church may (or may not) have doctrinal issues as or more serious than the issues surrounding your church leadership’s decision to forsake the assembling on December 25.
Was just wondering if I am off for that or am being legalistic?
Perhaps you could start with a reflection on your anger leading you to violate the third commandment.
 
I don't know why we often feel we need to get mad over what other people are doing. Media exposes us to all sorts of actions of others and it seems many Christians spend much of their time seething over the real or supposed sins of others, as if holiness consists in constant seeking of targets of our wrath. And with the 24/7 news cycle and social media, some people I know are always talking about how mad they always are. It gets tiresome to me. It helps to be focused on one's self and not be policing others at all times.
 
But you are actually going to stop going to church and be “homeless” on the Lord’s Day, December 25, rather than go to a church that uses the same King James Bible that was used at the Westminster Assembly.

This is not a case where your church cancels service due to a sudden ice storm or an apparently deadly outbreak of disease. This is an unforced error.

To be fair though I don’t know what churches you are referring to and they would need more investigation; actually switching membership is a serious matter. An IFB church may (or may not) have doctrinal issues as or more serious than the issues surrounding your church leadership’s decision to forsake the assembling on December 25.

Perhaps you could start with a reflection on your anger leading you to violate the third commandment.
I am sorry, to me you are not making sense. I dont know how I took the Lords name in vain? And no, I am not going to go to a KJV-Only church because my church canceled church for Christmas. Of the limited research I have done, there seems to be significant issues with the entire process that leads to KJV-Onlyism, one including the almost cultic adherence to the KJV. I have no problem with KJV preference, nor of that of a church using the KJV as the preferred text; it is the ideology behind the "Onlyism" that keeps me away. Also, by conservative, what I meant is in the issue of egalitarianism, which is a major issue in my part of TX; especially via HPU (Howard Payne University) and how it has a tendency to influence local churches via their students involvement in local ministry in just about every church in town.
 
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I don't know why we often feel we need to get mad over what other people are doing. Media exposes us to all sorts of actions of others and it seems many Christians spend much of their time seething over the real or supposed sins of others, as if holiness consists in constant seeking of targets of our wrath. And with the 24/7 news cycle and social media, some people I know are always talking about how mad they always are. It gets tiresome to me. It helps to be focused on one's self and not be policing others at all times.
This isnt really an issue of others for me; or pinpointing the personal sins of others. For me it is a reflection of my community corporately; and angers me to see my community collectively treating a traditional Christian holiday as pagan. It is my community turning pagan, from being an openly religious small town that angers me. Even if the holiday technically has nothing to do with Jesus, almost everybody thinks it does, and this is a reflection of what is deemed reverent. And that is why I am concerned because the process of that transformation seems like a judgment. Also there are other issues at play; just last year our small town was going to host its first PRIDE festival, but got it canceled as a grace from God. I know most of the nation is already like this; it just saddens me to see the transformation in real time.
 
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I understand what you mean, and certainly agree with your sentiment when you say,


That being said, my thinking has changed recently from being similar to your own viewpoint to one now of actually rejecting Christmas as a Christian holiday. Amongst other sources, Dr McMahon's little book 'Bah Humbug' has been a significant influence in respect of this.
I think I am going to go ahead and order that book. I keep hearing good reviews.
 
I dont know how I took the Lords name in vain?
Reread yourself:
Geesh its frustrating, or, is it just me. Not one single mention of Jesus.
You are using a minced oath for the name of Jesus to express your frustration with a holiday video not mentioning the name of Jesus. Not only does it not prick your conscience but it is so automatic that you don't even recognize it after it's been explicitly pointed out to you twice, in the context of Puritanism. This ought to concern you more than the content of this Chamber of Commerce-type holiday promotional video.
 
It has been stated here and other places it is better to stay in a church you may have issues with, rather than stop going and be "homeless." So, thats where I am there.
In the past, when it was announced ahead of time that a future service would contain elements I objected to (such as Easter or Christ-mass observances), I took the opportunity to visit another congregation. My advice would be for you to do the same. Visit the KJV-only congregation. It may not be what you think. Many who have been labeled "KJV-only" are more nuanced than that label generally reflects (though there is a reason that stereotype exists). To me it would be an easy choice between King James and Christmas, or between fellowshipping with believers who don't quite believe as I do and neglecting public worship altogether.
 
Reread yourself:

You are using a minced oath for the name of Jesus to express your frustration with a holiday video not mentioning the name of Jesus. Not only does it not prick your conscience but it is so automatic that you don't even recognize it after it's been explicitly pointed out to you twice, in the context of Puritanism. This ought to concern you more than the content of this Chamber of Commerce-type holiday promotional video.

I'd be a little more charitable, brother. The vast majority of Christians I've ever talked to have no idea what a minced oath is or that many of what seem to be innocuous silly words are even remotely connected to the name of Christ.

Dave, what he's referring to is "Geesh" (or Yikes) is a way of cursing without actually using "Jesus" name, but it intentionally uses the first part. Other ones would be "Yeesh" (Yeshua = Jesus), "Jiminy Cricket" (JC = Jesus Christ), "dadgum" (God damn), "gosh" (God), "Oh, my goodness" (oh my God), or even "zounds" (God's wounds). Almost any ejaculative you'll find has some connection to circumventing the third commandment.

It was something I was made aware of a number of years ago, but growing up I had zero realization that they were historically connected to ways of getting around the third commandment.
 
I'll chime in, I think you are right to be extremely hesitant about KJV-only churches. They may be "conservative", but they often have far more serious issues. Maybe I'm too evangelical here, but I'd rather attend a church that has a healthy overall focus on Christ and the gospel, yet has a weak doctrine of worship and the church, than attend a KJVO church which might be slightly better on the doctrine of the Church but which has serious issues in terms of the overall focus of the church and proclamation of the gospel.

I think the suggestion some have made, that you might visit the KJVO church on Christmas, so that you can worship on the Lord's Day, might be a workable solution..
 
Well, apparently the forum censors certain minced oaths, because some of the words showing up are not what I wrote!
 
Practically, it's possible you have a response this year that could actually be helpful to your church rather than just complain-y. What if you went to the leadership, explained that you have a desire to meet with other believers and observe weekly worship on Christmas Day, and asked if they know of any who will be gathering and would welcome you for whatever family/group worship they do that day? It isn't the same as an all-church worship service, but you still would be gathering with other believers—and sometimes you just have to do the best you can.

This might be a positive way to let leadership know you strongly desire to worship on that day. Rather than scold them, invite them to help you be an eager worshiper. It may be that someone in leadership decides to serve you by taking you into their home that day, or they may be encouraged to keep the church open the next time Christmas happens to fall on a Sunday. Pastors often cancel Christmas-Day Sunday services because they've been discouraged in the past by pitiful attendance. Generally, a member who wants to be there is an encouragement to them. Present your case as "I value this church's services and I want to worship," not "You were wrong to cancel services."

Several years ago, my wife and I were part of a church that canceled on Christmas Day. When we heard that schedule, we asked the pastor if we might have a key to the building and open up that morning for any who wanted to join us as we led family worship. Through December, we invited everyone we could (without criticizing the church), and many showed up on Christmas Day—including the pastor and his family. I don't think he felt guilted into coming, but rather encouraged by seeing a desire to worship within the congregation. It wasn't the kind of service we would have liked, but it was better than staying home by ourselves, and it encouraged the church leadership to start thinking differently. Most pastors do want to help members be faithful worshipers.

Perhaps it's too late for you to try something like that this year, but that sort of response may be the best way to go. For that kind of request to truly feel encouraging rather than passive-aggressively scolding, you will need to have an existing reputation with the church leadership as one who is usually grateful and teachable rather than one who is generally a faultfinder. You have to be someone the leadership trusts not to badmouth the church or make the pastor feel he has failed. But that's good, too: it will help you examine your own heart even as you challenge your church leadership.
 
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Well, apparently the forum censors certain minced oaths, because some of the words showing up are not what I wrote!
Interesting. I thought your post was pretty representative.

Just reflection: it is good to learn about minced oaths as a means of self-awareness. What are we speaking and why? For what it is worth, I always thought Isaiah's outcry in 6:5 is suitable for many circumstances. Especially the unclean lips part.
 
I'd be a little more charitable, brother. The vast majority of Christians I've ever talked to have no idea what a minced oath is or that many of what seem to be innocuous silly words are even remotely connected to the name of Christ.

Dave, what he's referring to is "Geesh" (or Yikes) is a way of cursing without actually using "Jesus" name, but it intentionally uses the first part. Other ones would be "Yeesh" (Yeshua = Jesus), "Jiminy Cricket" (JC = Jesus Christ), "dadgum" (God damn), "gosh" (God), "Oh, my goodness" (oh my God), or even "zounds" (God's wounds). Almost any ejaculative you'll find has some connection to circumventing the third commandment.

It was something I was made aware of a number of years ago, but growing up I had zero realization that they were historically connected to ways of getting around the third commandment.
Thank you for explaining it because I was seriously sitting here scratching my head. I can see what he means, and I will try to be more careful of that in the future.
 
Thank you everybody for your responses and taking the time to enlighten me on this issue; and if nothing else, I now know what a minced oath is. Still kind of leery on visiting the KJV-Only church, but I am going to make it my goal to get to a service that day.
 
Interesting. I thought your post was pretty representative.

Just reflection: it is good to learn about minced oaths as a means of self-awareness. What are we speaking and why? For what it is worth, I always thought Isaiah's outcry in 6:5 is suitable for many circumstances. Especially the unclean lips part.

Yes, "g-e-e-z' automatically got replaced with "yikes" and "O-M-G" automatically got replaced with "Oh, my goodness". I thought I'd made a mistake at first but when I went to edit my text it was still there, the forum just displays a replacement. Interesting indeed.
 
Yes, "g-e-e-z' automatically got replaced with "yikes" and "O-M-G" automatically got replaced with "Oh, my goodness". I thought I'd made a mistake at first but when I went to edit my text it was still there, the forum just displays a replacement. Interesting indeed.
Lol, not to get too technical, but isn't "oh my goodness" technically blasphemy? For the Christian, God is their goodness. I guess I don't say it because to me it's the same thing as saying "oh my God."
 
Just for the heads up Dr. McMahon at Puritan Publications has a 3 e-book special going for $5 on books dealing with Christmas. The books are:
The Christian’s Duty to Reject Christmas, by Thomas Mockett
A Biblical Response to Superstition, Will-Worship and the Christmas Holiday, by Daniel Cawdrey
Bah Humbug: How Christians Should Think About the Christmas Holiday, by C. Matthew McMahon

Saw this posted on the Board from 2016 and the link is still active so I ordered. The link to that is
This should be plenty enough reading to get me in the right direction to settling this issue.
 
@davejonescue it might help, for context's sake, to know just what kind of church you're referring to as KJVO. As I'm sure you know, there are some churches that have gigantic doctrinal errors related to the KJV, and others which have better reasons for using it practically exclusively.

I don't want to detail this into a KJVO thread; l just wonder whether some folks are ignorantly encouraging you to go to a Ruckmanite church or something. I use the KJV more or less exclusively (I use the original languages when I want more light), but there are KJVO churches I wouldn't touch with a 50 foot pole.

One more thought--if there is a good, confessionally Reformed church 40 minutes from you, I'd encourage you to check it out. Many people have longer commutes to work than that; God's worship and the good of your soul are worth making the drive once or twice a week.
 
@davejonescue it might help, for context's sake, to know just what kind of church you're referring to as KJVO. As I'm sure you know, there are some churches that have gigantic doctrinal errors related to the KJV, and others which have better reasons for using it practically exclusively.

I don't want to detail this into a KJVO thread; l just wonder whether some folks are ignorantly encouraging you to go to a Ruckmanite church or something. I use the KJV more or less exclusively (I use the original languages when I want more light), but there are KJVO churches I wouldn't touch with a 50 foot pole.

One more thought--if there is a good, confessionally Reformed church 40 minutes from you, I'd encourage you to check it out. Many people have longer commutes to work than that; God's worship and the good of your soul are worth making the drive once or twice a week.
The difference for me is the overall exclusivity of the KJV as the proper as opposed to preferred text of a church. For instance, the RBC that is 40 or so minutes away from me is a KJV preferred church, meaning, it is used as the churches text, but, members are free to use a translation of their choice. There are other churches that are strict KJV-Only based on a form of divine inspiration specific to that text, and use of other translations is deemed almost/if not heretical. This is kind of the issue I have driving the 30-40 minutes. Its not the distance, it is my vehicle. While the church is 30 or so miles away, my work is also 5-6 miles away; so, if I do something to my car, I will be riding my bike back and forth to work again 5 miles each way. The summers here get up to 108, and the winters down to 15, I rode my bike in those temps to work for over a year before God was gracious and let me meet someone who would allow me to pay $250 a month for a vehicle for 10 months, allowing me to use it as I paid. While it is not impossible to ride my bike to work if something goes wrong with my car, I do not want to press the issue because I am 40 years old, and 280lbs, and only by the Lords grace was I able to make it through the year I did riding it in the first place. That was 10 miles a day, 5 before work, and 5 after working 9 hours. This has really led me to want to, in some form of ingenuity, if possible, try to formulate a way to plant a RBC in my town; in no way desiring to be the Pastor, Elder, or Deacon; but figure a way to find people who could split the money to rent a building to meet on Sundays, and pray God would send a Pastor. But that is not my main focus. The SBC church I go to is not bad; it is full of genuine, loving people; kind of timid when it comes to the doctrines of grace, and within its own politics struggling with the greater SBC issues of egalitarianism. I have an unsettling feeling I am biding my time, as they have already mentioned the issue of "working out" whether women can be deacons, and of course, that will be the slide that leads it into full-blown egalitarianism later on; though I pray I am wrong. I have already heard the ol' "there is a lot of things the church has historically gotten right, but also a lot that it has gotten wrong...." and sometimes that speech is the seed for something new.

Again, I love my church, but I try to be a realist. So I dont really get full-blown involved, to kind of protect myself if and when departure will be necessary; and I do not bring up these issues because I am just a member, not a leader, and I do not want to be divisive; which God hates. I also want to be faithful to not forsake the gathering of the saints, so that is the reason I go instead of forsaking church simply because it isnt my ideal. I get well fed at church, but on what I feel is kind of a surface (or safe) level, because being a general Baptist church, the messages have to find balance between a Reformed and Arminian congregation; but it doesnt bother me much because I can supplement my diet and desire for more direct Calvinism by more Reformed authors and preachers online. This makes it so that I kind of live a duel church life, one physically, and one virtually; where the physical one is feeding me fellowship, accountability, corporate worship, etc.; but the virtual one is the one that really keeps me in doctrinal check like the works of the Puritans, and Pastors like Dr. Baucham, Paul Washer, John Piper and Dr. Beeke. I do not hold the latter to a greater esteem than my own Pastor, it is just they preach to a different audience; an audience I desire to be apart of, because corporately they embrace Calvinism, but cannot due to my location; and instead, I attend a church that sits on the fence on the issue. Maybe I should redirect my prayers; and pray that God would facilitate a better vehicle so I can attend the church 40 minutes away. He has shown his self fully able to do more than I could imagine; it would be nothing for him to direct my circumstances to do so.
 
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I'd be a little more charitable, brother. The vast majority of Christians I've ever talked to have no idea what a minced oath is or that many of what seem to be innocuous silly words are even remotely connected to the name of Christ.

Dave, what he's referring to is "Geesh" (or Yikes) is a way of cursing without actually using "Jesus" name, but it intentionally uses the first part. Other ones would be "Yeesh" (Yeshua = Jesus), "Jiminy Cricket" (JC = Jesus Christ), "dadgum" (God damn), "gosh" (God), "Oh, my goodness" (oh my God), or even "zounds" (God's wounds). Almost any ejaculative you'll find has some connection to circumventing the third commandment.

It was something I was made aware of a number of years ago, but growing up I had zero realization that they were historically connected to ways of getting around the third commandment.
Growing up we kids used to say “jumpin’ Jehoshaphat“ because saying Jiminy cricket was a no-no even though none of us knew why. When I went overseas as a volunteer missionary I once used the term “bloody” to describe a bad situation. Boy howdy was I ever corrected! The British brethren learned me good on that one!
 
Since living in a tribe I yell their 2 favorite curse words when I am away from them... WAFOS (earthworm, the symbol of death) and GEEN (the local river spirit).
 
I came home today to find this little video from our city. We are small town TX, and on the surface ooze Christian idealism. But for some reason, this little video upsets me. It starts with the traditional kids having fun, but then turns into an occasion of inebriation. On top of this, my local church canceled church in favor of Christmas because Christmas falls on a Sunday, and I go to the most conservative church in my community that is not KJV-Only. I think this is what may make me ditch Christmas for good. Not to humbug, but because this depicts the decimation of any gleaning of Christ from its observance, at least in my community. I am afraid to bring up my displeasure with canceling Lords Day worship so families can celebrate Christmas at home; but I dont want to be that guy. I am already treading on thin ice for pressing the issue of women leading mixed Bible studies at church in my new members class, and really, I have no other place to fellowship without driving 30-40 minutes each way; and that is a house church (Reformed Baptist) with about 8 people in a living room, plus I dont think my car will make it each week. Geesh its frustrating, or, is it just me. Not one single mention of Jesus.


Oh wow. Do you have like a church government to bring this issue up to? If this happened in my church, it would definitely be something to bring up to the Presbytery and though my first impulse would be to leave the church, I think I would rather pray for her repentance (but would definitely leave were my concerns--and hopefully those of others who are Bible-believing Christians--were not addressed). That kind of act is highly anti-Scriptural and grounds, in my view, for discipline in the hopes of repentance.

I think you or someone needs to address this in your church. It is not right to put any kind of tradition above the Lord's Day when he calls for us to worship Him. Your church is currently saying that the Lord is not as important as Christmas. That is blasphemous and needs to be repented of. I understand your concerns but hope you will speak up. That is a difficult position to be in, to not have a church with strong Biblical ideals to attend; you must go with what your conscience, informed by prayer and the Spirit's guidance, will lead you.

There is nothing Christian about the ad. I only see humanism.

The rampant materialism of Christmas is distasteful. If my family were involved in that, it may push me to back away from Christmas--outside of decorating my living room. It's nostalgic for me and I love the beautiful Christmas hymns. I also enjoy a moderate gift exchange, but it usually isn't on the day (and would definitely not do that should Christmas fall on Sunday. This year I'm with my family the week prior to Christmas due to my work schedule, so we're doing the gift exchange this Saturday). I have no conviction to abstain from celebrating the traditional holiday the way I do however. Many congregants in my church celebrate it the same way I do (one year we did a small gift exchange at a get-together a week or so before Christmas).
 
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I understand what you mean, and certainly agree with your sentiment when you say,

That being said, my thinking has changed recently from being simiof actually rejecting Christmas as a Christian holiday. Amongst other sources, Dr McMahon's little book 'Bah Humbug' has been a significant influence in respect of this.lar to your own viewpoint to one now
I agree, I don't consider Christmas a Christian holiday whatsoever; it is a cultural holiday in my view, the same as Halloween, Thanksgiving, New Year's, etc. I kind of wish the name of the holiday would be changed to something entirely different than "Christmas", but the word is so familiar to me that it just would sound so disorienting. But it would be nice if there would be a unified start in that direction. Maybe by the time I'm in my 80s I'll be used to that word for it instead of Christmas!
 
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