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Discussion in 'Spiritual Warfare' started by ABondSlaveofChristJesus, Jun 8, 2005.
Let's twist the question a bit:
Is it sinful for a cop to drive one mile over the speed limit, all other things being equal?
The phrase should be "all other things being equal."
As Christians we must obey the laws of the land. At the same time--and this is a great example that is applicable into all areas of law, jurisprudence and politics--we (the State and the civilian) must understand that under certain conditions a higher law must be appealed to which overrides the law of man. What are those conditions in this case:
Wife pregnat, dying person in the car, any scenario from the Dukes of Hazzard, etc.
Even my pluralistic opponents will agree with me on that. Most cops would understand, too. These are cases in which a higher ideal (I hate that word) must be appealed to.
Now, can we apply this in other areas of social life? I have always maintained that we can.
[Edited on 6--8-05 by Draught Horse]
AWE, you mean when I'm running late for work it's alright to speed, and my conscience is lying to me that I can't push the petal to the metal?????????
[Edited on 6-8-2005 by Loriann]
Is it safe to drive only 1 mile an hour over the speed limit? Not in Michigan where I'm currently living. You're likely to get run off the road if you're only going the speed limit. Everyone else is going at least 10 mph over the speed limit, and they always pass on the right! Always on the right!
Is it sinful and of the flesh to purposely endager your life and the that of your family, to obey the law to the letter?
What about conflicting laws? Let's say you live in San Francisco, have some form of cancer and go to a city-sponsored Marijauna Clinic for relief from your pain. Does local or Federal law apply? Is there a Biblical mandate?
Man, am I glad it's just wrong to go 1 mph over the speed limit b/c I usually go around 9 if it is safe.
I get to work at about 5 a.m. I have had colleagues stopped before for not going with the "flow of traffic." The "flow of traffic" was about 75 in a 65 at the time.
I HEARD over the weekend a radio program that shows they are trying to get the relief meds for marijuana over ruled. This at the same time the druggies of the US are pushing for it's legalization. LOL, even they can't agree amongst themselves!
Personally, I think prohibiting it for medical use is insane.
By your Avatar, you see that it should be legal for playing the guitar?
Django chain-smoked the cigs, but from what I understand he didn't touch the Blue Drag, which is amazing considering the jazz-infused environment he was a part of.
Regarding the speed limit ques, I think the answer from a post modern world is "no" as long as your going the flow of traffic. (if everyone else is doing it, its ok)
Seriously... Regarding Man's law, if you break it and it get caught, you get a ticket, once you pay the ticket, the state declares you free from "guilt" since the payment of the fine satisfies, or expiates the punishment of the offense. (this may be an over simplication, but its fun to think about)
Should you turn yourself in everytime you go a mile over or is it kind of like stealing where its ok as long as you are willing to pay the consequences if you get caught.
What if you get a ticket in an opposing state and the penality of not paying is a suspended licens in the state. Would it be just to just accept having your licens suspended in that state instead of paying and just not drive in the state until you pay for the ticket?
I've always told myself I would obey the "intent" of our law which is what they want. They want safe driving. So, i'll drive safe. Not just because the government says but because of pratical concern and compassion for the saftey of others on the road.
[Edited on 6-8-2005 by ABondSlaveofChristJesus]
I also think this is the purpose of a speed limit-- to promote safe driving. In our area (Mpls/St.Paul) it is generally accepted that 5 mph over the posted speed is the speed limit. Following this rule can get you into trouble if you're driving in Iowa, however, where "55 means 55", as a not-so-friendly trooper once told me.
[Edited on 6-8-2005 by Rick Larson]
I agree with the above. To answer the previous post which I copied below:
Should you turn yourself in every time you go a mile over or is it kind of like stealing where its ok as long as you are willing to pay the consequences if you get caught.
Answer: I plead the 5th amendment on the first part of the question. Additionally, I would say neither stealing or reckless speeding is ok, even if your willing to pay the consequences. Any "speeding" that might be considered permissible would be going less than 20mph over posted limit, which I arbitrarily use because most courts use this rule to determine if a ticket is eligible to be dismissed under defensive driving. In my orig post I was suggesting that we were dealing with normal speeding, not excessive. Sorry, I should have been more specific.
How does Leviticus 4 and 5 fit into this discussion? Intentional sin and unintentional sin?
By law, even emergency vehicles are only allowed to go 10 mph over the speed limit. I think the only lawful exception may be a cop in pursuit.
[Edited on 6-9-2005 by puritansailor]
I don't believe that Old Testament speeding laws are still binding today.
I have a lot of thoughts on this subject but limited time at the moment. However, I would note a couple of things briefly:
1) Technically, the speed limit can be enforced when someone is clocked one mph over the limit, but in reality, police usually don't even begin to enforce the limit until you drive at least 10 mph over. There is typically a built-in assumption that speedometers may be "off" or traffic flow may allow for speeds faster than the limit and so many people drive above the limit that the police (in mercy or with pragmatism) don't bother to try to catch everyone (expecting certain types of checkpoints). So, when the police don't enforce some violations but do enforce others, what does that say? Police often drive in excess of 20 mph over the limit without lights flashing in my experience. The limits are flexible and I see both good and bad in that.
2) I may be cynical but I am certain that safety is not the reason for speed limits. It's revenue. I'm all for safety, but slow speed limits do not always promote safety. Nor do speeding or red light cameras or safety belt laws. I live in the DC area and the DC mayor has said on the record that those enforcement methods are based on revenue quotas. Even AAA agrees with that.
That said, can laws be unjust but indifferent and therefore obligatory upon Christians like income taxes? I'll leave that for another time...
Can you point where the NT rescinded those laws?
Gee... that's funny... I once saw a sheriff in northern Virginia cut his blue-lights on just to run a red light that caught him... He promptly cut them off because it wasn't really a response to a call or an emergency obviously.
I rountinely get passed by troopers running way far in excess of the 65 mph posted speed limit [and without blue lights]... but when they're hiding behind a median somewhere--- they become stern advocates of staying within 5 mph of the posted speed limit. State troopers know no grace-- except for crying women.
I remember when I was at a beach I saw a cop speeding past me at 65mph in a 35mph divided parkway... I eventually crossed his path again several miles down the road as he setup radar apparently to stop people from doing what he had been doing... speeding There is a little irony in that...
Cops have a thankless job and they put in their lives on the line, but in some jurisdictions by flagrant abuse they cultivate disrespect for the law. This not the norm though in my humble opinion. My local municipal cops, at least from my vantage point, heed the law they uphold. I do believe speeding limits and seat-belt laws are necessary... I think a little grace is in order and cops should not utilize speed traps on exit ramps where people come off a 65 mph highway and have to quickly decelerate to the posted speed.
I know you can't rationalize your way out of speeding ticket, but too often disrespect for the law is cultivated by those enforcing the law.
With due respect.... In case you haven't noticed, the wages of speeding tickets are higher insurance premiums. You are not exonerated by paying your fine as you say.
[Edited on 6-9-2005 by Puritanhead]
Actually, I read how one of the corporate proprietors of those high-tech red-light cameras to bust red light violators was found tinkering with the timing on the yellow light in order to make more busts. Their profit-motive might encourage them to increase their revenues by 50-80%. They've abused it in the past. Perhaps money-hungry municipalities will as well. Senior Fox Judicial Analyst Andrew Napolitano has substantiated the earlier aforesaid claim.
Posted speed 55
Me driving - with the flow of traffic, typically 70-75.
Posted speed 65
Me driving - a little faster than the flow of traffic - typically 75-80.
It's only a sin if you get caught.... just kidding. Typically, cops don't ticket in MD if you're within 10-15 and driving with the flow of traffic.
Flow of Traffic. While I understand I do want to point this out... the "flow" of traffic is leading people down the wide path that leads to destruction, are you going to follow the flow or set your own "pace"?
we are commanded to be witnesses and to set examples!
Just to throw a "monkey wrench" into the discussion!
[Edited on 6-9-2005 by Loriann]
So if we start the "flow" of traffic, that will be better (example)?
Makes me feel better about it anyways.
You have to love those that get caught speeding and say that it was a trap.
Were ya speedin or not?
I've personally worded it as the problem of conscience and the law.
if i disobey the law because it is inconvenient, i not only disobey God who asks for obedience to lawful authorities, but i loose the moral high ground when the time comes to disobey the law because it conflicts with God's higher requirements. For if i speeded because i was late for church, a minor inconvenience, how would i justify disobedience on moral grounds being as i effectively put pragmatism higher than conscience alright in my actions?
[Edited on 6-9-2005 by rmwilliamsjr]
So you believe to go one mile over the speed limit is sinful and of the flesh?
I personally believe it IS sinful to drive 1 mph over the speed limit. Aftereall, this is a clear cut case of breaking the law isn't it? Romans 13 condemns any idea of breaking the civil law, unless of couse it contradicts the law of God.
I actally have taken steps to drive under or right at the speed limit on my way to work. I still need more help in this area, especially when I can't use the cruise control.
Christians should do this 1st out of obedience to God, and 2nd as a witness to the world of how Christians should act practically in this fallen world.