Is it wise to attend a pagan worship service?

[Notthemama1984]

If you believe that what is happening is not true worship, then it isn't true communion. It is just a cracker and juice (or Oreo and wine for the Rabbi).

It was just an attempt at humor. No need to get your blood pressure elevated.

 

[au5t1n]

I am less concerned with visiting than with taking communion there, which does lend tacit approval to their practice. If you are not advocating that, perhaps it would be a good idea to clarify that, since your original comment implies you'd support taking communion in a false worship service in order to show them respect.

Maybe you should reread my original. I said that those who I went with, know that I do not approve of their religion. In my eyes it is no different than wearing proper clothing in a Jewish or Muslim service. I am not approving of anything. I am simply eating a little cracker to help with my hunger cravings.

Maybe you should reread 1 Cor. 10 (and I say that without malice). Paul says eating meat sacrificed to idols would be nothing to a Christian, except that it means something to the person watching you do it, whether a pagan or a believer who might stumble. So Paul concludes "But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?" (vv. 28-29).

So in other words, the cracker may have been nothing but sustenance to you. But in that context, around those people, "What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils" (vv. 19-21).

 

[SolaScriptura]

I am less concerned with visiting than with taking communion there, which does lend tacit approval to their practice. If you are not advocating that, perhaps it would be a good idea to clarify that, since your original comment implies you'd support taking communion in a false worship service in order to show them respect.

Maybe you should reread my original. I said that those who I went with, know that I do not approve of their religion. In my eyes it is no different than wearing proper clothing in a Jewish or Muslim service. I am not approving of anything. I am simply eating a little cracker to help with my hunger cravings.

To partake of unChristian rites is to partake of them. To have koinonia with them. Telling yourself "I'm just having a snack" is absolutely ridiculous. And it reflects an immature and unbiblical sujectivism that wants to pretend our voluntary actions and participation in the activities of a group are devoid of any meaning outside our private opinion. But the biblical model is: if you go to the Asherah pole and eat the raisin cakes with worshippers of Asherah, then you too have worshipped Asherah by your actions.

 

[Notthemama1984]

If the poison is designed to attack cancer, or if the poison is of a small enough dose to help your body develop antibodies, if the poison is arsenic and is designed to kill parasites, if the rat poison is in the pill form warfarin and I am taking it to prevent blood clots.

The list can go on and on. Poisons have their purpose. So to learning from poisonous theology is beneficial. If it wasn't then why do we learn about various heresies in seminary and why are we examined on our knowledge of such heresies during ordination examination?

Being obtuse isn't the way to go on this one. You know precisely what was meant by the poison analogy. He can very well learn of those religions without participating in them. There are books abounding on the subject.

Not my fault it was a bad analogy. I don't go to these services to "learn of those religions" so that aspect does not apply.

 

[SolaScriptura]

One thing to note: It was one thing to go to the corner market and buy a slab of meat knowing that EVERY slab of meat being sold had been sacrificed to a pagan deity (in fact, I just read a book that said that in the Greco-Roman world EVERY time they killed an animal it was viewed as a sacrifice to the gods). It would have been quite another to go participate in the sacrificial service.

---------- Post added at 09:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 PM ----------

If you believe that what is happening is not true worship, then it isn't true communion.

Maybe not "true communion", but truly communing. (With what you are communing is another matter.)

 

[nicnap]

Not my fault it was a bad analogy. I don't go to these services to "learn of those religions" so that aspect does not apply.

As it wasn't a bad analogy, but you are indeed, merely being obtuse ... you should take a bit of your own advice; as you have told others to "go back and reread" your original postings, I shall say the same to you. I did not specify what the poison was for, but was for "pleasure drinking" of an individual. It was to satisfy their curiosity -- tasting for tastings sake. So, stop being obtuse.

 

[au5t1n]

One thing to note: It was one thing to go to the corner market and buy a slab of meat knowing that EVERY slab of meat being sold had been sacrificed to a pagan deity (in fact, I just read a book that said that in the Greco-Roman world EVERY time they killed an animal it was viewed as a sacrifice to the gods). It would have been quite another to go participate in the sacrificial service.

Right, Paul said don't ask questions, meat is meat. But if you are told, "This has been sacrificed to idols," then you abstain for the others' sake because even though to you it is just meat, to the pagan it is meat sacrificed to devils, and the Christian must give testimony against the table of devils.

 

[extolHIM]

I've went to a Mosque, a Jewish Synagogue, a Hindu Temple, a Sikh Temple, and a Buddist Temple and was a part of their services. Didn't actually join in whatsoever, just observed. It was for a World Religions course that I took at the Christian college I was going to. All the places knew in advance that our group was coming and even took time either before or after to talk with us, tell us about what they believe, and let us ask any questions we wanted to. Of course, our professor instructed us not to get argumentative, but to keep to a learning experience. Anyways...it was a very interesting and memorable experience in all those cases and I'm glad I got to experience it.

 

[Covenant Joel]

I'm not convinced a Christian ought attend, intentionally a false religion service.

There might be some extraordinary reason, but in general- where is the biblical pattern of attending false religion corporate worship "to learn more about it"? How does one attend without participating? What is participation?

When one looks at avoiding the appearance of evil, how it might cause a weaker brother to stumble, the true demonic power that can deceive, it all militates against it.

We think we know our heart, our own weaknesses, but getting sucked in is a very real prospect, getting influenced even more so.

I would say a couple of things:

(1) If it violates one's conscience, he shouldn't go. I can understand that, and that's fine. But I think we ought to be careful about being dogmatic about all circumstances with this (so long as one isn't going there to worship, which is, in my opinion, definitely out of line).

(2) There does need to be clarity, honesty, and full disclosure when going. I.e., yes, I think it would be a huge problem to go to a worship service from any of the above-mentioned groups and participate. For Muslims, that would include sitting in their rows with them, kneeling, bowing, etc, when they do, reciting anything with them, etc. I would not do that, because that does seem to compromise our witness. However, if one is curious to understand how they worship, or if one wants an opportunity to meet some Muslims in order to develop relationships, I don't think it is inherently wrong to go, respectfully explain to whoever is leading that you are a Christian, that you have no desire to be a Muslim, but that you would like to understand what they believe, and so could you sit at the back/off to the side (the mosque here has a side viewing room for visitors) and simply observe them. And then if you really want to get to know them, invite the leader or one of the men you might meet out for coffee afterwards to discuss Islam and Christianity.

Trust me, some great relationships and honest discussions can come out of this, most of which can lead to a great gospel witness. Would it be unwise to keep going back? I think so. I have seen some do that here, where they attend every week for a couple of years, and that does seem to me to compromise their witness. But to observe once or twice to understand them and to meet people seems to me at least to be an entirely different matter. But as I said, if your conscience is offended, or if you are otherwise wrongfully influenced by it, I would definitely avoid it and find another way to meet some Muslims so you can get to know them.

 

[caoclan]

Boliver, I don't know if you are intentionally playing coy in answering these questions, but your statement and subsequent responses are obviously causing concern. You might want to take a step back and reexamine this situation. If I went to a pagan religious ceremony where there were temple prostitutes, could I partake? If not, why not, and how would that be different from communion of the pagan? Would physical adultery be any worse than spiritual adultery?

 

[SolaScriptura]

One thing to note: It was one thing to go to the corner market and buy a slab of meat knowing that EVERY slab of meat being sold had been sacrificed to a pagan deity (in fact, I just read a book that said that in the Greco-Roman world EVERY time they killed an animal it was viewed as a sacrifice to the gods). It would have been quite another to go participate in the sacrificial service.

Right, Paul said don't ask questions, meat is meat. But if you are told, "This has been sacrificed to idols," then you abstain for the others' sake because even though to you it is just meat, to the pagan it is meat sacrificed to devils, and the Christian must give testimony against the table of devils.

Exactly. While the context is as you observe, the principle of Paul's words has application to participating in pagan worship rites directly. (Again, you can't be in fellowship with both demons and Jesus.)

 

[Edward]

I didn't say I had communion at Mass. That isn't allowed unless you are Catholic.

Since Jews don't celebrate the Lord's supper (and your description of the oreo cookie event sounds like a purely evil caricature of a means of grace - you should have walked out at that great offense), by process of elimination you must have had communion at a Mormon service.

I do want to cut you a bit of slack, since I know where you go to seminary, but brother, acknowledge your sin and repent. Don't try to talk your way out of it.

 

[Notthemama1984]

I gave a list of places I took communion at. No need to guess.

Also you should repent for the implication leveled against my school. Your comment implies that the Godly men who teach there allow and encourage blasphemous (as someone has labeled my actions) activities.

 

[Jack K]

To answer the original question...

Is it wise to attend a pagan worship service?

It might be wise, but only...

1. On rare occasions...

2. For a godly purpose (such as outreach or education)...

3. And if there's a way to attend, be gracious, and still not actually participate in the worship or appear to do so.

I'd say all three conditions must be met and then it might be a wise thing. Still might not either. Personally, I've attended a Greek Orthodox service at the urging of Orthodox friends my wife and I were trying to reach out to and get to know better, but abstained from communion. We, of course, invited them to our church as well.

 

[caoclan]

Boliver, I don't know if you are intentionally playing coy in answering these questions, but your statement and subsequent responses are obviously causing concern. You might want to take a step back and reexamine this situation. If I went to a pagan religious ceremony where there were temple prostitutes, could I partake? If not, why not, and how would that be different from communion of the pagan? Would physical adultery be any worse than spiritual adultery?

I'm sorry if this is poor form, quoting myself, but my post ended up as the last post on page 1. I would appreciate it if you addressed this, Boliver.

 

[BertMulder]

I gave a list of places I took communion at. No need to guess.

Also you should repent for the implication leveled against my school. Your comment implies that the Godly men who teach there allow and encourage blasphemous (as someone has labeled my actions) activities.

Your behavior at non-christian services was blasphemous, and your conversation here is extremely disrespectful.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

You know what? The scriptures are always right.

(1Co 10:19) What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?

(1Co 10:20) But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.


(1Co 10:21) Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.


(1Co 10:22) Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?


(1Co 10:23) All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.


(1Co 10:24) Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.


(1Co 10:25) Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:


(1Co 10:26) For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.


(1Co 10:27) If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.


(1Co 10:28) But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:


(1Co 10:29) Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?


(1Co 10:30) For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?


(1Co 10:31) Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.


(1Co 10:32) Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:


(1Co 10:33) Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Boliver, I don't know if you are intentionally playing coy in answering these questions, but your statement and subsequent responses are obviously causing concern. You might want to take a step back and reexamine this situation. If I went to a pagan religious ceremony where there were temple prostitutes, could I partake? If not, why not, and how would that be different from communion of the pagan? Would physical adultery be any worse than spiritual adultery?

I'm sorry if this is poor form, quoting myself, but my post ended up as the last post on page 1. I would appreciate it if you addressed this, Boliver.

I am not committing spiritual adultery. That would imply that I actually worshiped someone other than God.

 

[caoclan]

Boliver, I don't know if you are intentionally playing coy in answering these questions, but your statement and subsequent responses are obviously causing concern. You might want to take a step back and reexamine this situation. If I went to a pagan religious ceremony where there were temple prostitutes, could I partake? If not, why not, and how would that be different from communion of the pagan? Would physical adultery be any worse than spiritual adultery?

I'm sorry if this is poor form, quoting myself, but my post ended up as the last post on page 1. I would appreciate it if you addressed this, Boliver.

I am not committing spiritual adultery. That would imply that I actually worshiped someone other than God.

Thank you for skating around another question. Why you are acting in this manner is beyond me, and probably many others.

 

[au5t1n]

I am not committing spiritual adultery. That would imply that I actually worshiped someone other than God.

I doubt anyone thinks you would worship another God. However, Scripture is "the only rule of faith and obedience" (LC 2), so let's quit going in circles and approach this debate like good Reformed men: with exegesis. I and others have given an application of 1 Cor. 10 to the situation of taking communion at a pagan assembly, which you have encouraged as an acceptable practice. If you see a flaw in the logic behind our application of 1 Cor. 10, please show where you think our interpretation is lacking.

 

[Dearly Bought]

And once more, the testimony of the Reformed confessions to the teaching of Scripture:

But at the same time we admonish me to be on guard lest they reckon among things indifferent what are in fact not indifferent, as some are wont to regard the mass and the use of images in places of worship as things indifferent. "Indifferent," wrote Jerome to Augustine, "is that which is neither good nor bad, so that, whether you do it or not, you are neither just nor unjust." Therefore, when things indifferent are wrested to the confession of faith, they cease to be free; as Paul shows that it is lawful for a man to eat flesh if someone does not remind him that it was offered to idols; for then it is unlawful, because he who eats it seems to approve idolatry by eating it (I Cor. 8:9 ff.; 10:25 ff.).
(Second Helvetic Confession, Chapter XXVII)

 

[Edward]

Also you should repent for the implication leveled against my school. Your comment implies that the Godly men who teach there allow and encourage blasphemous (as someone has labeled my actions) activities.

I suppose that the DTS grads that I saw tolerating improper administration of the Lord's Supper *might* have learned it somewhere else. And that you might have learned improper attitudes about the sacrament somewhere else. But for someone to be as far along in their studies as you to have such a wrong approach does not speak well for the institution or some of its faculty. We are talking some fairly basic theology here.

I gave a list of places I took communion at.

Which post is that?

 

[Galatians220]

We are to "(a)bstain from all appearance of evil." (1 Thessalonians 5:21.) We are not to dandle it upon our knees or give the evil that is false worship an extra head to count or sustenance in the form of seeming assent while we sit in its filthy halls. We deal the Lord of Glory, Who saved us by His precious blood, a vicious, undeserved and grievous blow on top of what He already spent for the joy of having us in heaven with Him, when we even consider attending a mass or other evil liturgical rite.

Some of us have willingly undergone ostracism, ridicule and shunning by family and friends because we refuse to attend services that pertain to the "life" (really spiritual death) that God raised us from when we were given saving faith. I have two more such services that I'll have to decline looming imminently in front of me, one being a niece's wedding. This is not a laughing matter to many here on this board. It is, however, small potatoes and really absolutely nothing compared to the eternal significance of either attending or not attending a pagan rite. Once you do it, you can't take it back, and if you don't do it, well, it would be better not to miss the blessing that might come from that.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I have been a few Masses, Jewish services, and Mormon services. I even took communion at some of them. Showing some respect to pagans can go a long way with people. They know that I am not approving of their religion.

I am going to have to agree that this practice is wrong Boliver. It isn't respectful to partake of something you don't approve of. In fact if you aren't a Christian and you partake of the Lord's Table vainly it will bring judgment upon you. If you go to someone else's service and partake of something that is sacred to them not giving due reverence in their understanding that is disrespectful. Plus, you are violating the scripture in 1 Corinthians 10 I believe where it states if you know it is something that is attached to pagan idolatry you are not to partake.

Love ya buddy, But I sincerely believe you have done incorrectly here according to scripture and common sense. You might not have realized it but you were disrespectful on both accounts.

 

[calgal]

Boliver & Ben:

Some BIG problems you are not aware of:
1. Jews Don't.Do.Communion.EVER. In fact they would be LIVID for many reasons (google Blood Libel and Pogrom for a couple very good reasons this would enrage and insult any practicing or secular Jews) at any implication that they do so. The oreos and wine after the service are called an Oneg Shabbat and are lie coffee and cookies after church.
2. It is one thing to attend a service for another religion or a wedding for a friend (a cousin had a lovely unitarian wedding DH and I attended a couple years ago and we went to more than 1 Catholic wedding mass) BUT taking communion is NOT acceptable.
3. Not sure about Eastern Orthodox holy bread being ok (would consult with an elder before attending their church) but I would not touch the LDS wonderbread and water. Meat in front of idols indeed: LDS are tritheistic modern gnostics at best.
4. Eastern Orthodox and Catholics have a closed communion.
5. Learning about other faiths is admirable. Going in ignorantly and blatantly insulting said faiths is something else entirely.

 

[Scott1]

There are several aspects that make this a difficult question, and difficult to propose that a believer can attend false worship to "learn more about it." For reasons to show respect for "the people," or even "so a Christian can witness better."

1) As the Westminster Standards summarize the doctrine of Scripture- God absolutely detests worship of other Gods. When one attends, sings, recites words, stands in respect, segregates according to its practice, it's hard to say one is not worshipping. What will an outsider think?

2) Scripture tells us we must love the sinner, hate the sin.
One of the many things in the Christian life that is impossible to do, we must rely in faith on God's grace to do what we cannot do. Somehow we must separate the person from the (false) religion. If we identify a person by their religion, we can be getting into a trap of mixing the two. E.g. Is a person a "Moslem," or are they an individual created in the image of God, in sin, and given over to false worship of a false God?

If we accept them as their religion, aren't we showing respect for what is detestable, damnable and evil in God's sight?

If we accept them as a human being created in the image of God, lost in sin, then don't we try to not support or respect anything that shows disrespect to God and harms them?

I can imagine some extraordinary cases that might except some sort of nominal attendance, and know these lines can sometimes be blurred, e.g. attending a wedding ceremony, funeral, etc. but I just don't see a pattern in the Old or New Testament a pattern of God's people attending or engaging in false worship (again, maybe an extraordinary example of going in to preach).

This whole notion seems foreign to the Puritans as well.

It certainly seems contrary to the Confessions, summarizing the doctrine of Scripture.

 

[Pilgrim]

In fact, last time I worshiped with dispensationalists, I realized in the middle of the service that they weren't rightly administering the sacrament, and put aside the cup.

Out of curiosity, what did they do that constituted wrong administration?

 

[Stargazer65]

In fact, last time I worshiped with dispensationalists, I realized in the middle of the service that they weren't rightly administering the sacrament, and put aside the cup.

Out of curiosity, what did they do that constituted wrong administration?

Sounds like hyper-dispensationalism. Unlike mainstream dispensationalists, they may reject the cup, or the entire Lord's Supper altogether...as well as baptism.

 

[J. Dean]

I think Boliver is looking at this as a "meat offered to idols" matter like Paul talked about in I Corinthians.

 

[Scott1]

The color palate does not seem to be working so I'll try to bold for response, rejoinder:

I'm not convinced a Christian ought attend, intentionally a false religion service.

There might be some extraordinary reason, but in general- where is the biblical pattern of attending false religion corporate worship "to learn more about it"? How does one attend without participating? What is participation?

When one looks at avoiding the appearance of evil, how it might cause a weaker brother to stumble, the true demonic power that can deceive, it all militates against it.

We think we know our heart, our own weaknesses, but getting sucked in is a very real prospect, getting influenced even more so.

I would say a couple of things:

(1) If it violates one's conscience, he shouldn't go.

How about if it violates another believer's who might see you there or know you are going, cf Romans 9. How about avoiding the appearance of evil? 1 Thessalonians 5:22
Abstain from all appearance of evil.

I can understand that, and that's fine. But I think we ought to be careful about being dogmatic about all circumstances with this (so long as one isn't going there to worship, which is, in my opinion, definitely out of line).

I can imagine some exceptional circumstances, maybe, but not learn more about false worship or to meet the people who practice it there.

Remember, there is a responsibility outside of one’s self for the Christian.

That’s even more so for officers and leaders of the church (Minister, evangelist, etc.), who are held to a higher standard.

(2) There does need to be clarity, honesty, and full disclosure when going. I.e., yes, I think it would be a huge problem to go to a worship service from any of the above-mentioned groups and participate. For Muslims, that would include sitting in their rows with them, kneeling, bowing, etc, when they do, reciting anything with them, etc. I would not do that, because that does seem to compromise our witness.

How, practically do you not “participate”? If you take shoes off, isn’t that showing “respect” for evil?

However, if one is curious to understand how they worship,

I can’t see how curiosity about evil, even with the best of intentions, is a good thing. or if one wants an opportunity to meet some Muslims It’s hard to see this as justification when individuals are freely available in so many other contexts?

in order to develop relationships, I don't think it is inherently wrong to go, respectfully explain to whoever is leading that you are a Christian, that you have no desire to be a Muslim, but that you would like to understand what they believe, and so could you sit at the back/off to the side (the mosque here has a side viewing room for visitors) and simply observe them. And then if you really want to get to know them, invite the leader or one of the men you might meet out for coffee afterwards to discuss Islam and Christianity.

It sounds so appealing, except that can be a rationale for evil. We don’t know the depravity of our own sin, we are weaker, more vulnerable than we might imagine.

And how do we freely teach them the holy religion we confess…
That God detests false worship, and he commands His people to do the same, and come apart from it.

Trust me, some great relationships and honest discussions can come out of this, most of which can lead to a great gospel witness.

Yes, I can believe this. But, more in the sense of God “ruling and overruling” in our own disobedience.

There is always a price to pay for sin, no matter how small. It is going to be difficult to turn down future invitations with the pretext of similar things happening. A “one off” approach like this is tempting to become a pattern.

That’s why I think the biblical principles all point to this being unwise-
Unwise once, aggravated by repeat.

Would it be unwise to keep going back? I think so. I have seen some do that here, where they attend every week for a couple of years, and that does seem to me to compromise their witness. But to observe once or twice to understand them and to meet people seems to me at least to be an entirely different matter. But as I said, if your conscience is offended, or if you are otherwise wrongfully influenced by it, I would definitely avoid it and find another way to meet some Muslims so you can get to know them.

Difficult, impossible really, I know- like much of the Christian life.

We can only meet individuals who participate in false worship of a false god bringing upon them the true God of Heaven’s wrath outside of these practices, by faith.

It’s not merely a matter of one Christian struggling with this- how about someone else at the false worship who might have just become Christian struggling to see a believer there? Yes, it could give entrée to a discussion, but God is not limited by means in any way. It could also cause them to stumble.

From what I have seen, fear of a Holy God, who demands His creatures worship Him in the way He has commanded is a concept that will not be lost on those in the false religion you mention in the example.

At some point, one has to be able to teach the religion confessed (e.g. the Larger Catechism) with clear conscience as well.

.