Is it wrong to listen to hard rock? (a double-meaning question)

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steven-nemes

Puritan Board Sophomore
my favorite band is Underoath, and specifically I like their first three albums. Beautifully written lyrics, wicked breakdowns and growls, and some of the spoken verse sequences (like in the song "A Love So Pure": "World so cold, but your love keeps me warm/My father holds me in his nail-scarred hands which I put there/And he still loves me with all his heart") are very powerful and beautiful. So yeah I think it's fine.
 

reformed trucker

Puritan Board Sophomore
Nonbelievers deliver their message to me everyday, in everything that goes on around me. The prevailing worldview in my country is decidedly non-Christian. Should I stay inside of my home with the T.V. and radio off?

Yes, and the blinds drawn.:D

-----Added 2/17/2009 at 09:04:51 EST-----

I think it's a sin to listen to it in my hearing. Opera or classical on the other hand....

Opera IS evil... and against the Geneva Convention (torture).:lol:
 

Zenas

Snow Miser
Yes, the imago dei is tainted in fallen man, it is called total depravity. The fact that man is intelligent or creative is the vestige of the imago dei in him, however when used for ill, it does not de facto make it good.

Hear Calvin,

Since the image of God had been destroyed in us by the fall, we may judge from its restoration what it originally had been. Paul says that we are transformed into the image of God by the gospel. And, according to him, spiritual regeneration is nothing else than the restoration of the same image. (Colossians 3:10, and Ephesians 4:23.)

But now, although some obscure lineaments of that image are found remaining in us; yet are they so vitiated and maimed, that they may truly be said to be destroyed. For besides the deformity which everywhere appears unsightly, this evil also is added, that no part is free from the infection of sin.

Blessings,



Calvin says why the regenerate are now special, "Paul says that we are transformed into the image of God by the gospel. And, according to him, spiritual regeneration is nothing else than the restoration of the same image. (Colossians 3:10, and Ephesians 4:23.)" After the restoration of that image, our works are not now pure. I would never contend that. However, now our works are being sanctified, and as much as they are done in true faith, are mediated by Christ to the Father.


How do you differentiate between works, where is your line? So a painting may be sinful, but the artistic portions of the automobile you drive, assuming they were designed by a non-believer, why are they not sinful? What about reprobate in the church nonetheless performing, need we repent for listening to their music?

Who preforms in Church? We do not have performers, but sing the Psalms as a congregation with no solo's, choirs, special numbers, leaders, etc. I don't think I understand your question.

As far as the the artistic portions of the automobile I drive go, yes, they are tainted by a fallen image of God in man, and thus a part of the sinful world, built by sinful minds. Whatever is true, is a reflection of the Divine. Whatever is defective is a result of the fallen condition. In my 12 seater van, there are many imperfections in design as well as engineering!:)



I think what this boils down to is some applying a cultural more to a Christian liberty, and then calling that liberty sin, based on that social more. How is this then different form the Judaizers?

(Nota bene: I'm not calling anyone a Judaizer, I'm asking for a differentiation.)

Ouch. I don't know if the nota bene removes the implication of your statement, considering this is sentiment is not taking place in a vacuum. I do not believe that we are applying "a cultural more to a Christian liberty", I thought we were talking about the law of God, which transcends all culture.

You have yet to explain how we are applying the law of God, or to cite a specific law from God's Word that forbids us from listening to secular music. So yes, we are talking about a social more at this point.

Moreover, you do know what I'm talking about re: the above quotation as I'm sure you're aware that the majority of American congregations use an organist at the very least. However, the context of this discussion revolves around listening to secular and/or Christian music. If a preference is stated for Christian, then my question stands. If you're not advocating for that position, then you're advocating for no music in the form of entertainment. If you're arguing for no music as entertainment, you have no place in this thread as you're seemingly off topic.
 

JOwen

Puritan Board Junior
You have yet to explain how we are applying the law of God, or to cite a specific law from God's Word that forbids us from listening to secular music. So yes, we are talking about a social more at this point.

Do I really? Are you telling me that listening to a genre that was born out of rebellion needs further explanation as to which law it is violating? And I never said God's Word forbids us from listening to secular music. The topic is rock music.

Moreover, you do know what I'm talking about re: the above quotation as I'm sure you're aware that the majority of American congregations use an organist at the very least. However, the context of this discussion revolves around listening to secular and/or Christian music. If a preference is stated for Christian, then my question stands. If you're not advocating for that position, then you're advocating for no music in the form of entertainment. If you're arguing for no music as entertainment, you have no place in this thread as you're seemingly off topic.

Brother, you were the one who brought up listening to the reprobate in worship not me (I still don't know what that has to do with the topic). I was simply following, or trying to follow your thought, which went from Dan to Beersheba. You said, " However, the context of this discussion revolves around listening to secular and/or Christian music". No it does not. The conversation is, "Is it wrong to listen to hard rock?" So let's do stay on topic. I assert the positive, that it is wrong. No art form is a-moral, and the medium IS the message. Add to this the diabolical lifestyles of the performers (in general), the constant violating the law of God in their lyrics, and you have a direct violation of Php 4:8. So far all I have heard is sophistry, rabbit trails, and dead end extrapolations. Could you tell me how listening to hard rock fits into Php 4:8?

Kind regards,
 

Grymir

Puritan Board Graduate
Hmm, I've been listening to heavy metal bands playing video game music lately. You should hear the Final Fantasy 7 Boss Battle music. Good stuff.
 

Tripel

Puritan Board Senior
No art form is a-moral, and the medium IS the message.

OK then, can you please explain the morality of the various art forms? Is the classical genre moral? What about jazz? I assume the blues are immoral, right?

Add to this the diabolical lifestyles of the performers (in general), the constant violating the law of God in their lyrics...

So the morality of a particular score of music is determined by the lifestyles of some of the artists who work within that genre?

Could you tell me how listening to hard rock fits into Php 4:8?

Could you tell me how listening to Mozart fits into Php 4:8?
 

Theognome

Burrito Bill
Do I really? Are you telling me that listening to a genre that was born out of rebellion needs further explanation as to which law it is violating?


Coincidentally, I was born out rebellion, too. We all are.

Theognome
 
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JOwen

Puritan Board Junior
No art form is a-moral, and the medium IS the message.

OK then, can you please explain the morality of the various art forms? Is the classical genre moral? What about jazz? I assume the blues are immoral, right?

Read this.

Add to this the diabolical lifestyles of the performers (in general), the constant violating the law of God in their lyrics...

So the morality of a particular score of music is determined by the lifestyles of some of the artists who work within that genre?

Not at all. What I posted was, "add to this". This means "in addition to" or "also". It is not the argument itself, but an annex to the argument. The argument being, "hard rock music is immoral and does not fit into Php 4:8."


Could you tell me how listening to hard rock fits into Php 4:8?

Could you tell me how listening to Mozart fits into Php 4:8?

The topic is rock music. You first.

-----Added 2/18/2009 at 12:07:01 EST-----

JOwen;550467Do I really? Are you telling me that listening to a genre that was born out of rebellion needs further explanation as to which law it is violating? [/quote said:
Coincidentally, I was born out rebellion, too. We all are.

Yes, which explains our attachment to sin, does it not?
 

Tripel

Puritan Board Senior
Not at all. What I posted was, "add to this". This means "in addition to" or "also". It is not the argument itself, but an annex to the argument. The argument being, "hard rock music is immoral and does not fit into Php 4:8."

First of all, thanks for explaining "Add to this".

Second, I am trying to figure out the basis of your argument that hard rock is immoral. To make a claim like that, I'd hope you can support it. You mentioned the lifestyles of the "rockers", so I was asking if that is perhaps your basis for calling it immoral.


Could you tell me how listening to Mozart fits into Php 4:8?

The topic is rock music. You first.

Simple. Php 4:8 mentions nothing about musical genres. I don't there is any Scriptural basis for declaring entire genres of music immoral. I didn't bring up Php 4:8--you did. So I'm asking you to explain how the verse applies. Does it apply to ALL music, or just rock? Is Mozart pure, noble, etc?
 

bconway52

Puritan Board Freshman
What is better--listening to a cheap "Christian" version of popular music, or listening to Mozart...the work of an incredibly worldly man? I'll take Mozart any day.

We need to get out of the habit of evaluating art by whether it is Christian or not. Christians used to be at the forefront of the arts, but those days are long gone. Sadly, many Christians have settled for taking a mirror image of what the world produces, and then giving it a splash of Jesus. Where is the creativity in that?

But back to your question...No, it's not wrong. There is nothing evil or sinful about certain genres of music. Some genres may be dominated by poor musical acts, but that doesn't make the genre itself wrong.

Amen! This is sound advice.
 

JOwen

Puritan Board Junior
First of all, thanks for explaining "Add to this".

Second, I am trying to figure out the basis of your argument that hard rock is immoral. To make a claim like that, I'd hope you can support it. You mentioned the lifestyles of the "rockers", so I was asking if that is perhaps your basis for calling it immoral.

Sure. Here are some links, not from Christians, but from the genere itself. Tell me how this fits into Php.4:8?

The History of Rock Music - The Sixties
History Of Rock Music
The Baddies - TIME


Some interesting quotes from Rock artists:

Andrew Oldham, recording manager for the Rolling Stones), "Pop music is sex and you have to hit them in the face with it" (Time Magazine Website).

"Our music is capable of causing emotional instability, disorganized behavior, rebellion and even revolution." ...'The Beatles'

"The throbbing beat of rock provides a vital sexual release for adolescent audiences."...Jan Berry

"I'm in rock music for the sex and narcotics."...Glenn Frey of 'The Eagles'

"Rock 'n' roll is 99% sex."...John Oates

"Everyone takes it for granted that rock and roll is synonymous with sex."...Chris Stein, lead guitarist with 'Blondie.'

"Rock music is sex. The beat matches the body rhythms."...Frank Zappa, superstar of 'Mothers of Invention' fame.

Also, give this a listen if you would have the time.
Al Martin

Could you tell me how listening to Mozart fits into Php 4:8?

The topic is rock music. You first.

Simple. Php 4:8 mentions nothing about musical genres. I don't there is any Scriptural basis for declaring entire genres of music immoral. I didn't bring up Php 4:8--you did. So I'm asking you to explain how the verse applies. Does it apply to ALL music, or just rock? Is Mozart pure, noble, etc?

If that is your explanation then there is probably not much sense in continuing this discussion. I would encourage you to look at a good concordance at the word WHATSOEVER THINGS (one word a pronoun -hosos), and see if your above "simple" exegesis still fits. Last time I checked, "whatsoever things" was an all-inclusive phrases. I believe that hard rock music, is a noun, and therefore a "thing". BTW, a "musical genre" is also a thing.

Blessings,
 

Theognome

Burrito Bill
-----Added 2/18/2009 at 12:07:01 EST-----

Coincidentally, I was born out rebellion, too. We all are.

Yes, which explains our attachment to sin, does it not?

Indeed. It explains why we often call good evil and evil, good. And it would be helpful if you answered Zena's question. I too am curious as to how rock music (as a genre) in and of itself is a violation of the Law of God.

Theognome
 

Zenas

Snow Miser
I haven't added because others has caught on to what I'm curious about and have asked the questions I have been thinking.

But to clarify, what I am interested in and what others appear to have picked up on is how do you label and entire genre of music sinful when there is no didactic text that you can point to in Scripture that supports your assertion. Appeals to its origin, the lifestyle of the performers, etc. are immaterial as, again, there's nothing in Scripture which supports a conclusion from those circumstances.

These things taken together, we appear to be talking about a liberty which is being governed by, as I pointed to earlier, a social more. This brings me back to one of my original questions, which is how is this different from the Judaizer's attempt to apply the social mores of Judaism to Greek Christians?

That being said I must apologize for losing my temper a bit and getting short with you Pastor Lewis. I was assuming mal fide on your part which was wrong of me and I ask your forgiveness.
 

Theognome

Burrito Bill
I haven't added because others has caught on to what I'm curious about and have asked the questions I have been thinking.

But to clarify, what I am interested in and what others appear to have picked up on is how do you label and entire genre of music sinful when there is no didactic text that you can point to in Scripture that supports your assertion. Appeals to its origin, the lifestyle of the performers, etc. are immaterial as, again, there's nothing in Scripture which supports a conclusion from these circumstances.

These things taken together, we appear to be talking about a liberty which is being governed by, as I pointed earlier, a social more. This brings me back to one of my original questions, which is how is this different from the Judaizer's attempt to apply the social mores of Judaism to Greek Christians?

Aye. The only folk I've ever heard placing the onus of sin upon things as opposed to upon man are the fundies, so I am interested in a biblical argument for such a position.

Theognome
 

Knoxienne

Puritan Board Graduate
First of all, thanks for explaining "Add to this".

Second, I am trying to figure out the basis of your argument that hard rock is immoral. To make a claim like that, I'd hope you can support it. You mentioned the lifestyles of the "rockers", so I was asking if that is perhaps your basis for calling it immoral.

Sure. Here are some links, not from Christians, but from the genere itself. Tell me how this fits into Php.4:8?

The History of Rock Music - The Sixties
History Of Rock Music
The Baddies - TIME


Some interesting quotes from Rock artists:

Andrew Oldham, recording manager for the Rolling Stones), "Pop music is sex and you have to hit them in the face with it" (Time Magazine Website).

"Our music is capable of causing emotional instability, disorganized behavior, rebellion and even revolution." ...'The Beatles'

"The throbbing beat of rock provides a vital sexual release for adolescent audiences."...Jan Berry

"I'm in rock music for the sex and narcotics."...Glenn Frey of 'The Eagles'

"Rock 'n' roll is 99% sex."...John Oates

"Everyone takes it for granted that rock and roll is synonymous with sex."...Chris Stein, lead guitarist with 'Blondie.'

"Rock music is sex. The beat matches the body rhythms."...Frank Zappa, superstar of 'Mothers of Invention' fame.

Also, give this a listen if you would have the time.
Al Martin

The topic is rock music. You first.

Simple. Php 4:8 mentions nothing about musical genres. I don't there is any Scriptural basis for declaring entire genres of music immoral. I didn't bring up Php 4:8--you did. So I'm asking you to explain how the verse applies. Does it apply to ALL music, or just rock? Is Mozart pure, noble, etc?

If that is your explanation then there is probably not much sense in continuing this discussion. I would encourage you to look at a good concordance at the word WHATSOEVER THINGS (one word a pronoun -hosos), and see if your above "simple" exegesis still fits. Last time I checked, "whatsoever things" was an all-inclusive phrases. I believe that hard rock music, is a noun, and therefore a "thing". BTW, a "musical genre" is also a thing.

Blessings,

I like Al Martin, and I would like to listen to that message. We have a dear friend who has a book on scripture and music (one of those obscure little books with an independent publisher that you'll never find in a modern evangelical bookstore) and I believe the author mentions many of those quotes you posted. You may have the book! It's white with black musical notes all over it.

In conversations like this I like to think of what Paul said about things being lawful but not necessarily helpful or beneficial. Many of those "Is it okay to..." discussions fall under that category, and again, we have to go to scripture. Our priority is holiness, and if something in one's life is hindering that (and that can be anything from an alternative rock collection to cappuccinoes to blue jeans) then it's something that I need to let go of in order to press on to the greater goal of becoming Christlike. That won't be the same for all people, but each person needs to evaluate their walk and stay close to the Lord and His Word so they can determine what they need to do in order to put off the Old Nature and put on Christ.

Thank you for your perspective on this thread.
 

Zenas

Snow Miser
In conversations like this I like to think of what Paul said about things being lawful but not necessarily helpful or beneficial. Many of those "Is it okay to..." discussions fall under that category, and again, we have to go to scripture.

I think this is where the crux of this discussion rests. I don't think the case can be made that rock music as a genre is unlawful, i.e. sinful. However, with all things being permissible to us in Christ, there are things that are not necessarily helpful or beneficial to us, and should thus be avoided for that reason.

This in mind, I don't think you can couch a condemnation on the genre of music based on it being unlawful, only unhelpful.
 

cih1355

Puritan Board Junior
I don't see how the genre of rock music regardless of the lyrics is inherently evil. I know that some people believe that, but I don't see how that is the case. It is like saying that certain sounds are inherently evil. A harsh, heavy beat can sound like noise, but I don't think that the way it sounds is inherently evil.
 
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Albatross

Puritan Board Freshman
First of all, thanks for explaining "Add to this".

Second, I am trying to figure out the basis of your argument that hard rock is immoral. To make a claim like that, I'd hope you can support it. You mentioned the lifestyles of the "rockers", so I was asking if that is perhaps your basis for calling it immoral.

Sure. Here are some links, not from Christians, but from the genere itself. Tell me how this fits into Php.4:8?

The History of Rock Music - The Sixties
History Of Rock Music
The Baddies - TIME


Some interesting quotes from Rock artists:

Andrew Oldham, recording manager for the Rolling Stones), "Pop music is sex and you have to hit them in the face with it" (Time Magazine Website).

"Our music is capable of causing emotional instability, disorganized behavior, rebellion and even revolution." ...'The Beatles'

"The throbbing beat of rock provides a vital sexual release for adolescent audiences."...Jan Berry

"I'm in rock music for the sex and narcotics."...Glenn Frey of 'The Eagles'

"Rock 'n' roll is 99% sex."...John Oates

"Everyone takes it for granted that rock and roll is synonymous with sex."...Chris Stein, lead guitarist with 'Blondie.'

"Rock music is sex. The beat matches the body rhythms."...Frank Zappa, superstar of 'Mothers of Invention' fame.

Also, give this a listen if you would have the time.
Al Martin

The topic is rock music. You first.

Simple. Php 4:8 mentions nothing about musical genres. I don't there is any Scriptural basis for declaring entire genres of music immoral. I didn't bring up Php 4:8--you did. So I'm asking you to explain how the verse applies. Does it apply to ALL music, or just rock? Is Mozart pure, noble, etc?

If that is your explanation then there is probably not much sense in continuing this discussion. I would encourage you to look at a good concordance at the word WHATSOEVER THINGS (one word a pronoun -hosos), and see if your above "simple" exegesis still fits. Last time I checked, "whatsoever things" was an all-inclusive phrases. I believe that hard rock music, is a noun, and therefore a "thing". BTW, a "musical genre" is also a thing.

Blessings,

These are very interesting quotes but not an answer to how the entire genre of rock music is sinful. We must distinguish b/t the sin of members of a genre and the genre itself.
 

Tripel

Puritan Board Senior
Simple. Php 4:8 mentions nothing about musical genres. I don't there is any Scriptural basis for declaring entire genres of music immoral. I didn't bring up Php 4:8--you did. So I'm asking you to explain how the verse applies. Does it apply to ALL music, or just rock? Is Mozart pure, noble, etc?

If that is your explanation then there is probably not much sense in continuing this discussion. I would encourage you to look at a good concordance at the word WHATSOEVER THINGS (one word a pronoun -hosos), and see if your above "simple" exegesis still fits. Last time I checked, "whatsoever things" was an all-inclusive phrases. I believe that hard rock music, is a noun, and therefore a "thing". BTW, a "musical genre" is also a thing.

I am fully aware that Php 4:8 is talking about ALL THINGS. That's not my point. My point is that YOU are singling out rock music as being immoral based upon that verse. That verse does not say anything about music.
Because you are using Php 4:8 in your reasoning I will ask you this again (maybe you'll respond to it this time): How does Php 4:8 apply to classical music? Is Mozart noble, pure, true, etc?
 

JBaldwin

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
To add to my earlier post about the rules of music...Rock music in general breaks all the traditional rules of music to the point that music has been redefined and new rules made in order to include it. If you believe that it was wrong to break all the rules of music, and you believe all the traditional rules of music are right, then you could say that rock music is sinful. For me, the jury is still out on that one. However, I do take that into consideration when I am choosing what I listen to, and I don't allow myself a steady diet of rock music because of it.
 

Albatross

Puritan Board Freshman
To add to my earlier post about the rules of music...Rock music in general breaks all the traditional rules of music to the point that music has been redefined and new rules made in order to include it. If you believe that it was wrong to break all the rules of music, and you believe all the traditional rules of music are right, then you could say that rock music is sinful. For me, the jury is still out on that one. However, I do take that into consideration when I am choosing what I listen to, and I don't allow myself a steady diet of rock music because of it.

What are the traditional rules of music and how does rock music break them?.........I found your previous explanation, nevermind.
 

Tripel

Puritan Board Senior
If you believe that it was wrong to break all the rules of music, and you believe all the traditional rules of music are right, then you could say that rock music is sinful.

I was very intrigued by your earlier post and would like to learn more, but at the moment I just cannot buy that there are "rules" for music. I don't see any Scriptural basis for the proper ranking of song elements.
 

JOwen

Puritan Board Junior
I haven't added because others has caught on to what I'm curious about and have asked the questions I have been thinking.

But to clarify, what I am interested in and what others appear to have picked up on is how do you label and entire genre of music sinful when there is no didactic text that you can point to in Scripture that supports your assertion. Appeals to its origin, the lifestyle of the performers, etc. are immaterial as, again, there's nothing in Scripture which supports a conclusion from those circumstances.

These things taken together, we appear to be talking about a liberty which is being governed by, as I pointed to earlier, a social more. This brings me back to one of my original questions, which is how is this different from the Judaizer's attempt to apply the social mores of Judaism to Greek Christians?

That being said I must apologize for losing my temper a bit and getting short with you Pastor Lewis. I was assuming mal fide on your part which was wrong of me and I ask your forgiveness.


Forgiveness gladly granted!:)

If it is true that music is not amoral, then it has systemic roots in a philosophy. If that philosophy is not built upon the a priori foundation of the glory of God, then we must question its origins. Hard Rock is not birthed out of a desire to glorify God, but is intended to produce rebellion and distention. Just read the history of the genre and what its proponents confess with their mouth, and you will discover how it breaks the law of God. Any assertion to the contrary is simple stubbornness to justify an action. The truth of the matter is Hard Rock was not created to glorify God, but to rebel against the status quo as is admitted by its proponents. I find it hard to see how any Christian could justify the listening of such music without the greatest attempts at sophistry. It is Syncretism, plain and simple.

Deu 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
 
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Tripel

Puritan Board Senior
If it is true that music is not amoral...

Who said music is amoral??? We are talking about genres of music. There is DEFINITELY music out there that is honoring to God and there is music that is not. My whole point is that it cannot be broken down simply by musical genre, and it definitely cannot be broken down by what is "Christian" and what is secular.
 

JOwen

Puritan Board Junior
Simple. Php 4:8 mentions nothing about musical genres. I don't there is any Scriptural basis for declaring entire genres of music immoral. I didn't bring up Php 4:8--you did. So I'm asking you to explain how the verse applies. Does it apply to ALL music, or just rock? Is Mozart pure, noble, etc?

If that is your explanation then there is probably not much sense in continuing this discussion. I would encourage you to look at a good concordance at the word WHATSOEVER THINGS (one word a pronoun -hosos), and see if your above "simple" exegesis still fits. Last time I checked, "whatsoever things" was an all-inclusive phrases. I believe that hard rock music, is a noun, and therefore a "thing". BTW, a "musical genre" is also a thing.

I am fully aware that Php 4:8 is talking about ALL THINGS. That's not my point. My point is that YOU are singling out rock music as being immoral based upon that verse. That verse does not say anything about music.
Because you are using Php 4:8 in your reasoning I will ask you this again (maybe you'll respond to it this time): How does Php 4:8 apply to classical music? Is Mozart noble, pure, true, etc?

Admitting that the text applies to all things, and then saying it does not apply to the genre of Hard Rock is, well, plainly contradictory. If It applies to the whole, it applies to the singular. Let me put it in easier to understand terms. How does Php. 4:8 apply to Hard Rock. If it does not, how does the phrase, "whatsoever things" exclude music genre from its preview?

BTW, I never singles out Hard Rock music as "sinful" based on that scripture. It is sinful based on its etymology. What I asked is how you would justify Hard Rock according to Php.4:8? The longer you wait to do the exegesis of the text, and apply it to the subject of Hard Rock, the more your argument founders. Simply turning the tables and asking my question back to me does not help your argument in the least. Nor is it reasonable debate. Answer the question in a detailed way, and then we can begin to talk.
 

MrMerlin777

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Hard Rock music, and really all music is kind of like a scalpel.

You can give it to a gifted surgeon or to Jack the Ripper, each will use it differently.
 

Zenas

Snow Miser
If that is your explanation then there is probably not much sense in continuing this discussion. I would encourage you to look at a good concordance at the word WHATSOEVER THINGS (one word a pronoun -hosos), and see if your above "simple" exegesis still fits. Last time I checked, "whatsoever things" was an all-inclusive phrases. I believe that hard rock music, is a noun, and therefore a "thing". BTW, a "musical genre" is also a thing.

I am fully aware that Php 4:8 is talking about ALL THINGS. That's not my point. My point is that YOU are singling out rock music as being immoral based upon that verse. That verse does not say anything about music.
Because you are using Php 4:8 in your reasoning I will ask you this again (maybe you'll respond to it this time): How does Php 4:8 apply to classical music? Is Mozart noble, pure, true, etc?

Admitting that the text applies to all things, and then saying it does not apply to the genre of Hard Rock is, well, plainly contradictory. If It applies to the whole, it applies to the singular. Let me put it in easier to understand terms. How does Php. 4:8 apply to Hard Rock. If it does not, how does the phrase, "whatsoever things" exclude music genre from its preview?

BTW, I never singles out Hard Rock music as "sinful" based on that scripture. It is sinful based on its etymology. What I asked is how you would justify Hard Rock according to Php.4:8? The longer you wait to do the exegesis of the text, and apply it to the subject of Hard Rock, the more your argument founders. Simply turning the tables and asking my question back to me does not help your argument in the least. Nor is it reasonable debate. Answer the question in a detailed way, and then we can begin to talk.

You're argument seems to assume its conclusion. It's sinful because it's sinful is kind of what I'm seeing.

There are no Scriptures which state an entire category of some thing is sinful because some people who began it wanted it to be sinful. Their own intentions were sinful, not the thing itself. This goes back to being a heart issue and the fact that it is not what goes into the mouth (or the ear) that is sinful, but what comes out.
 

Tripel

Puritan Board Senior
Admitting that the text applies to all things, and then saying it does not apply to the genre of Hard Rock is, well, plainly contradictory. If It applies to the whole, it applies to the singular. Let me put it in easier to understand terms. How does Php. 4:8 apply to Hard Rock.

Oh my....

OK, I'll try this again. Php 4:8 truly is speaking about all things. Correct. Can it be used to show that hard rock is wrong? Absolutely not.

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

Based upon this passage, I should only be thinking about that which is true, honorable, just, etc. Is hard rock pure and honorable? Yes and No. It varies from piece of music to piece of music. The entire genre is not evil. So in that sense, I don't think Php 4:8 is applicable to a discuss dealing with an entire genre of music. Everything within that genre is not the same, so it cannot be judged the same.


OK, your turn. How does Php 4:8 apply to classical music? Is Mozart honorable, pure, and true?
 

JBaldwin

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
If you believe that it was wrong to break all the rules of music, and you believe all the traditional rules of music are right, then you could say that rock music is sinful.

I was very intrigued by your earlier post and would like to learn more, but at the moment I just cannot buy that there are "rules" for music. I don't see any Scriptural basis for the proper ranking of song elements.

When I speak of rules for music, I am specifically talking about rules of composition. Western music has followed the general principles/rules of music for centuries. Each style of music has it's own set of rules of composition (or lack thereof), and generally speaking from the beginning of the 20th century and prior to that time, all music pretty much could be defined that way. Melody was primary and all the other elements were secondary. As different forms of music developed in the 20th century, composers began to abandon the traditional forms and rules. Pick up any music history book and you can read about it.


There are no scriptural rules for music that I know of, at least not in the sense that I spoke of above though I've heard people try to prove there is, unless you want to go back to the verse where we are commanded to sing and make melody in our hearts to the Lord.
 

JOwen

Puritan Board Junior
I am fully aware that Php 4:8 is talking about ALL THINGS. That's not my point. My point is that YOU are singling out rock music as being immoral based upon that verse. That verse does not say anything about music.
Because you are using Php 4:8 in your reasoning I will ask you this again (maybe you'll respond to it this time): How does Php 4:8 apply to classical music? Is Mozart noble, pure, true, etc?

Admitting that the text applies to all things, and then saying it does not apply to the genre of Hard Rock is, well, plainly contradictory. If It applies to the whole, it applies to the singular. Let me put it in easier to understand terms. How does Php. 4:8 apply to Hard Rock. If it does not, how does the phrase, "whatsoever things" exclude music genre from its preview?

BTW, I never singles out Hard Rock music as "sinful" based on that scripture. It is sinful based on its etymology. What I asked is how you would justify Hard Rock according to Php.4:8? The longer you wait to do the exegesis of the text, and apply it to the subject of Hard Rock, the more your argument founders. Simply turning the tables and asking my question back to me does not help your argument in the least. Nor is it reasonable debate. Answer the question in a detailed way, and then we can begin to talk.

You're argument seems to assume its conclusion. It's sinful because it's sinful is kind of what I'm seeing.

There are no Scriptures which state an entire category of some thing is sinful because some people who began it wanted it to be sinful. Their own intentions were sinful, not the thing itself. This goes back to being a heart issue and the fact that it is not what goes into the mouth (or the ear) that is sinful, but what comes out.

It is sinful because no art form is amoral, meaning, it has a philosophical underpinning that is either a good reflection the the image of God, or a corruption of the same. I have already given you a text that proves that an entire category is sinful because began it wanted it to be sinful. Deut 12:30. If something is sinful in its creation, how on earth can you justify it as a from of entertainment?? I honestly can't get away from the idea that you are justifying sin. Conscience and heart, dear brother, have NO proximity to truth so long as they oppose it. This Samuel Rutherford called "pretended liberty of conscience."

Kind regards,
 
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