Is Jesus passible......today?

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Touched to the point where He is merciful and compassionate - as prone to be merciful as we are to need mercy. Unless you define compassion in terms of tears (which I don't know why you would; Jesus was certainly compassionate to the widow of Nain, and yet we are not told of any weeping on that occasion), I don't think there's any reason to speculate about the functioning of tear ducts in a glorified body.

Though Jesus can sympathize with our infirmities does this mean He, now glorified, can be moved to compassion. In other words, I understand during His ministry 2,000 years ago He indeed was moved (Human nature) but now that He is glorified is there any way He can be changed by His creatures? As Adam was created mutable is Jesus still mutable today? If He is still mutable and can change, like being moved with compassion, why not think it would be impossible to think He could not have a physical response (like crying) today. The reason I say such is that one day we will forever have no tears and be like Him in that we will never cry again.

So is it possible that a man could be immutable?
 
Though Jesus can sympathize with our infirmities does this mean He, now glorified, can be moved to compassion. In other words, I understand during His ministry 2,000 years ago He indeed was moved (Human nature) but now that He is glorified is there any way He can be changed by His creatures? As Adam was created mutable is Jesus still mutable today? If He is still mutable and can change, like being moved with compassion, why not think it would be impossible to think He could not have a physical response (like crying) today. The reason I say such is that one day we will forever have no tears and be like Him in that we will never cry again.

So is it possible that a man could be immutable?

You would have to clarify in what sense you are speaking. Is Christ subject to change in the sense of defection or development? Obviously not. If that is all you mean by immutability, the answer is clear. The spirits of just men made perfect are no longer subject to sin: in that sense, they are immutable. But I think it would be better to think of them as confirmed and established in holiness, rather than somehow given an ontological status that belongs to the divine nature.

There is no reason to think that Christ would be moved to weep because, in the first place, we are not told that He does; and in the second place, His sorrows are over; but as man He is no less merciful, no less tender, now in His exaltation than He was in His humiliation. Are you selecting weeping simply as an example of a broader principle, or is there a precise reason why you are raising the question in exactly those terms?
 
In some ways, it is then a purely hypothetical question, in that it raises the point whether a capacity for suffering persists in an environment where there is no possibility of suffering.

If it is true that Christ now can be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, the environment he is in now must allow for a possibility of suffering for the first clause of this sentence to be true.
 
In some ways, it is then a purely hypothetical question, in that it raises the point whether a capacity for suffering persists in an environment where there is no possibility of suffering.

If it is true that Christ now can be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, the environment he is in now must allow for a possibility of suffering for the first clause of this sentence to be true.

Only if you assume that compassion means suffering. I don't see any reason to assume that.
 
Earl and Tim:

As I said earlier, much care must be had in handling this. As to his humanity, Jesus is passible and mutable. But the Logos, the eternal Son of God is not, as Shedd wrote, "The trinitarian personality of the Son of God did not begin at the incarnation, but the theanthropic personality of Jesus Christ did. It is the divine nature, and not the human, which is the base of Christ's person. The second trinitarian person is the root and stock into which the human nature is grafted. The wild olive is grafted into the good olive, and partakes of its root and fatness" (DT, II, 269).

This is why Jesus, in the hypostatic union, could not sin, or, as we say, he was impeccable. It did not mean that the sinless humanity that was added to deity was impeccable as such, with reference only to humanity, but in union with deity it was. Think of Jesus humanity as a malleable copper wire, able to sin and not to sin as was Adam in his original, yet unglorified, state. This copper wire, however, was, as it were, welded to a steel beam, and though it in itself could be bent, yet the beam to which it was welded could not be bent: in the integrity of His theanthropic person, our blessed Lord was impeccable, not simply sinless, but not capable of sinning. A glorified humanity, such as we will be in our heavenly estate, is also not capable of sinning. But Jesus never was able to sin, even in an unglorified, though sinless, humanity, because such humanity susbsisted with deity in the hypostatic union.

Please note that this is the communicatio idiomatum in concreto. I am not suggesting that there is a communication of attributes such that the deity transforms the humanity, as it does for our Lutheran friends, allowing for sacramental ubiquity. At the same time, it is not just Calvinists, or Antiochenes, contra the Lutherans, but historic Christianity that teaches that the incarnation does not limit the Logos, the finite not able to contain the infinite.

Much more could be said here, but the bottom line is that, and here's what people generally miss, He who was God fully retained ALL HIS ATTRIBUTES AS GOD (though coming down from His glory and voluntarily unknowing of certain things) and at the same time was a man who tired and hungered and was no superman but made in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet without sin. One commonly hears that believers tend to Docetism or the other heresies (Apollinarianism, monophysitism, etc.) that deny his humanity. Perhaps. I know that we struggle to understand what it means that He was a man. But I think more than that we tend to err by not really holding to all that it means that He is fully God and fully man. To say simply that Jesus was passible is to make this error. Much more reading and thinking and praying if one wishes to graps this.

While we can say that Jesus Christ is passible in his humanity and impassible in his deity, we can never say, Earl, simpliciter, that Jesus was ever passible. That's what started this thread, the statement to the effect that "Jesus was passible in his ministry 2000 years ago." Only insofar as he was also impassible, impeccable, and immutable as God. This is a vast mystery, second only to how it is that, as the Athanasian Creed says: The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; but there are not three Gods, but only One God. Jesus is God and man in one person from His incarnation forward and we can never leave out any of that reality. The Wesley's Christology, by the way, was deficient. He neither "emptied Himself of all but love," nor did He "leave the Father's throne above" without further qualification. Athanasius on the Incarnation is another wonderful, devotional exploration of these beautiful truths.

Peace,
Alan
 
In some ways, it is then a purely hypothetical question, in that it raises the point whether a capacity for suffering persists in an environment where there is no possibility of suffering.

If it is true that Christ now can be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, the environment he is in now must allow for a possibility of suffering for the first clause of this sentence to be true.

Only if you assume that compassion means suffering. I don't see any reason to assume that.

You may be correct......how can one empathize, sympathize or have compassion without have a degree of suffering?

Now it is possible how this may work. For instance I can tell a friend "I know how you feel" after they tell me their grandfather died. I can say this with total honesty in that I really know how they feel because I felt that way when my grandfather died. Now here is the kicker, I am not sad because my friends grandfather is not my grandfather but I am empathetic because I know how he feels. In other words, my feelings are ABSENT but I am still empathetic.

So my point about Jesus STILL having feelings, like the holes in His hands still causing pain or having pain in His heart over us experiencing bad providence may not be. For as you say His sufferings are ended but the suffering of His passions are as yet unfulfilled.
 
Earl:

My dear brother, you are trying to "figure Jesus out" with respect to these things and it simply won't work.

Jesus acts as our great high priest, seated at the Father's right hand, making intercession for us. The one who makes intercession for us, wonder of wonders, does so as one who Himself has our own nature. In other words, Christ in his full humanity is at the Father's right hand. Think of it, a sympathizing high priest, able to be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, together with the Spirit within (and thus Christ within, the hope of glory and the Father and Son taking up residence--John 14:23), who, on our behalf makes inutterable groanings. What a dual intercessor we have!

My counsel to you would be to stop trying to figure out the mechanics of this or else carefully to study the discussion of God's revelation about this as it has enfolded in church history. To keep speculating as you are without such being grounded in solid study of the Bible and its interpretation seems fruitless and frustrating. Your last attempt above at "I am not sad because..." does not at all get at it. In fact, it demeans (I know you did not intend it to) the indescribable way in which our Savior sympathizes with us and in that sympathy even represents us and our case before His Father.

He cares about us as no other ever has or could. He understands you like no other. And He both makes intercession for you at the Father's right hand and dwells within you as the hope of glory. It is all far greater than you are conceiving it. How He can so thoroughly sympathize and still be impassible as God is a mystery, but it's part of the mystery of how He can be God and man in one person. We need to seek to understand all the dimensions of this, and then recognize that our inability to reconcile them all is part of the great mystery. We must affirm everything taught in revelation, shaving off nothing to fit some a priori conception that we have of how such things should work. If we consistently shape things to fit our limited capacities (remember God is incomprehensible), we will end up with the Christ of the heretics and not the Christ of the Scriptures and I know that none of us want that.

Peace,
Alan
 
Earl, I think the key points are to keep in mind that He is a merciful and a faithful high priest and that He is able to succor those that are tempted, because He has also experienced temptation. The ability to assist is there; the willingness to assist is there. You can add that He never becomes discouraged or impatient. But I think this is where the heart of the matter lies, not in any question as to what degree the wounds in His hands have healed or whether He is oppressed by sorrow: for the joy that was set before Him He endured the cross - now He is entered into that joy, and pilots us with supreme skill and tenderness to enter into our joy as well.
 
Earl:

My dear brother, you are trying to "figure Jesus out" with respect to these things and it simply won't work.

Jesus acts as our great high priest, seated at the Father's right hand, making intercession for us. The one who makes intercession for us, wonder of wonders, does so as one who Himself has our own nature. In other words, Christ in his full humanity is at the Father's right hand. Think of it, a sympathizing high priest, able to be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, together with the Spirit within (and thus Christ within, the hope of glory and the Father and Son taking up residence--John 14:23), who, on our behalf makes inutterable groanings. What a dual intercessor we have!

My counsel to you would be to stop trying to figure out the mechanics of this or else carefully to study the discussion of God's revelation about this as it has enfolded in church history. To keep speculating as you are without such being grounded in solid study of the Bible and its interpretation seems fruitless and frustrating. Your last attempt above at "I am not sad because..." does not at all get at it. In fact, it demeans (I know you did not intend it to) the indescribable way in which our Savior sympathizes with us and in that sympathy even represents us and our case before His Father.

He cares about us as no other ever has or could. He understands you like no other. And He both makes intercession for you at the Father's right hand and dwells within you as the hope of glory. It is all far greater than you are conceiving it. How He can so thoroughly sympathize and still be impassible as God is a mystery, but it's part of the mystery of how He can be God and man in one person. We need to seek to understand all the dimensions of this, and then recognize that our inability to reconcile them all is part of the great mystery. We must affirm everything taught in revelation, shaving off nothing to fit some a priori conception that we have of how such things should work. If we consistently shape things to fit our limited capacities (remember God is incomprehensible), we will end up with the Christ of the heretics and not the Christ of the Scriptures and I know that none of us want that.

Peace,
Alan

Thank you for your reply. Now I hope you see my speculations are on based on inferences drawn from scripture. The bible does say we will be "like Him" and that "like Him" will entail us having no more tears which is In my most humble opinion an indication a lack of pain, suffering and true feelings of such in the future state of the new heavens and earth. So when I asked if Jesus (in His humanity) is immutable now, concerning His being moved to compassion, I do believe Jesus now is different (glorified) than during His earthly ministry. I rather think that we can think we could change His mind "as if" we could move Him to act compassionately towards us while knowing that I do believe His divine nature is no longer "put aside" after His Resurrection.

If there is scripture of The post Resurrection Jesus showing that He is mutable (concerning changing feelings) I will shut up and desist for what I have found by reading the bible there is an discernible "difference" in Jesus before and after His Resurrection.

---------- Post added at 03:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 PM ----------

Earl, I think the key points are to keep in mind that He is a merciful and a faithful high priest and that He is able to succor those that are tempted, because He has also experienced temptation. The ability to assist is there; the willingness to assist is there. You can add that He never becomes discouraged or impatient. But I think this is where the heart of the matter lies, not in any question as to what degree the wounds in His hands have healed or whether He is oppressed by sorrow: for the joy that was set before Him He endured the cross - now He is entered into that joy, and pilots us with supreme skill and tenderness to enter into our joy as well.

No doubt, I agree with all you have written here for I do believe that it may be possible to render mercy and grace to many without "feeling" their pain....at that moment.
 
Earl, I think you would take away a tremendous consolation from us if you want to date Christ's sympathy for us at some other time and place than the time and place when we need it most. There is indeed a Scripture that says that He is even now, in His glorification, touched with the feelings of our infirmities: this human response of our High Priest in heaven is surely a 'mutable' one, for our infirmities are not forever.
 
Earl:

I do not think that you are making any valid inferences that I can discern. We will be "like him." Yes. How? The rest of Scripture would fill this in, going back to Genesis in our creation in the likeness and image of God and in places like Eph. 4:24 and Col 3:10 where restoration is mentioned. We were like God in the beginning. We will be fully restored in that likeness. We will enjoy, in other words, restoration of true righteousness, holiness, and knowledge. We will enjoy that in a glorified state in which we will be not able to sin (unlike Adam in his probation, Christ having fulfilled ours and paid for our sin).

Will we have no sorrow then? Yes, Revelation tells us that. Will Jesus have no sorrow then? Yes, because all sin and suffering will be past. Does that mean that Jesus has no sorrow now? I don't think that at all follows. He is able to be touched with the feelings of our infirmities: I do not think that we should posit anything about Him as our great high priest with respect to such that would make Him less compassionate than the Scriptures paints Him.

Was Jesus more sympathetic to us in his humiliation than He is now in His exaltation? We are still in our humiliation; we follow after Him, awaiting exaltation at His coming. We need his sympathy in our humiliation. There, in the new heavens and new earth, we will be delivered and no longer have that need, at least in that way. Why would He now be less sympathizing and what in Scripture would indicate that? Why need we speculate that because his humanity is glorified, He no longer can be touched as He was by the feeling of our infirmities?

Think of this: though He is in His glory, He continues to lift us up into the heavenlies, while we remain in our humiliation. We experience this particularly in the sacrament of communion. The Christ, who is with us by the Spirit, though He is exalted, comes to us in our humiliation under the emblems of his humiliation, bread and wine. The bread and the wine signify the nadir of his humiliation. This is evidence of His great sympathizing: though exalted, He dwells with us, by His Spirit, and strengthens us in our humiliation by signs of His own humiliation, by that which stands for his broken body and shed blood.

I don't think that we have any warrant to even talk about "our Lord used to be touched and mourn for us and does no longer." I maintain that such is unhelpful speculation without warrant.
 
Thank you for your reply. Now I hope you see my speculations are on based on inferences drawn from scripture. The bible does say we will be "like Him" and that "like Him" will entail us having no more tears which is In my most humble opinion an indication a lack of pain, suffering and true feelings of such in the future state of the new heavens and earth. So when I asked if Jesus (in His humanity) is immutable now, concerning His being moved to compassion, I do believe Jesus now is different (glorified) than during His earthly ministry. I rather think that we can think we could change His mind "as if" we could move Him to act compassionately towards us while knowing that I do believe His divine nature is no longer "put aside" after His Resurrection.

If there is scripture of The post Resurrection Jesus showing that He is mutable (concerning changing feelings) I will shut up and desist for what I have found by reading the bible there is an discernible "difference" in Jesus before and after His Resurrection.

Christ will always remain very much a human being - albeit a glorified and exalted human being.

Human beings in their very nature are both mutable and passible. But although - in His humanity - Christ is both mutable and passible, in Heaven in His glorified and exalted state He is beyond suffering,but not beyond compassion and fellow feeling, as we will be when we join Him there. Christ and the saints in glory know the end from the beginning in a way that we don't.

that "like Him" will entail us having no more tears which is In my most humble opinion an indication a lack of pain, suffering and true feelings of such in the future state of the new heavens and earth.

It doesn't say that we will be incapable of these things, just that they will not be there because there will be no reason for them. You're subtily and rationalistically adding to what Scripture says.
 
Earl:

I do not think that you are making any valid inferences that I can discern. We will be "like him." Yes. How? The rest of Scripture would fill this in, going back to Genesis in our creation in the likeness and image of God and in places like Eph. 4:24 and Col 3:10 where restoration is mentioned. We were like God in the beginning. We will be fully restored in that likeness. We will enjoy, in other words, restoration of true righteousness, holiness, and knowledge. We will enjoy that in a glorified state in which we will be not able to sin (unlike Adam in his probation, Christ having fulfilled ours and paid for our sin).

May I reply, not concerning the original question I asked, but as a sidelight that was brought up by some inferences you bring up? Now doubt we will be restored as Adam was in the garden before the fall with one possible exception. Do you think we will "have the knowledge of good and evil"? If so, we will not be restored in the exact same likeness of Adam but totally aware of the evil of those in hell and of the evil we committed that Jesus paid for. Thus even though death and suffering have indeed passed away, for us, they are still present for those in hell. Also was not Adam created mutable (able to sin) and we will be immutable (unable to sin) when resurrected? Are these valid references in your opinion?

Blessings to all who have responded.
 
I think you should distinguish between actually changing or being subject to change and being capable of change. We know that angelic nature is intrinsically capable of change, because some of the angels kept not their first estate; but the elect angels, though having the same nature and therefore being capable of change did not actually change and being now confirmed in holiness would not be subject to change.
When you say "immutable" some people think of "capable of change" and as such are careful to affirm that contingent, dependent beings are always intrinsically capable of change. In that sense, God only has immutability.
But if someone hears "immutable" and thinks "free from change" or "confirmed in holiness" then of course they are eager to assert that elect angels and glorified believers are "immutable" in that second sense - just like we speak of our "immortal souls" even though, properly, only God has immortality. Or to use another illustration, God can keep us from falling, but that doesn't mean we are inherently infallible; we may pass a test with no errors, but that doesn't mean we are incapable of mistakes.
 
Earl:

With respect to your last question, above, that is answered in the post that you cite. In terms of man's four fold state, glorified man will be not able to sin: The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only (WCF 9.5). Nothing I said indicated otherwise.

As for the knowledge of good and evil, we will also have that, though not in rebellion, but in perfection. That is to say we shall know good and evil from God's perspective rather than that of the devil and we shall perfectly agree with Him in all His judgments. When I say that we will be restored, I do not mean simply to Adam's place (no probation, I have made clear), but to where Christ's work takes us.

In other words, we gain more in Christ than we ever lost in Adam.

Peace,
Alan
 
Thank you for your reply. Now I hope you see my speculations are on based on inferences drawn from scripture. The bible does say we will be "like Him" and that "like Him" will entail us having no more tears which is In my most humble opinion an indication a lack of pain, suffering and true feelings of such in the future state of the new heavens and earth. So when I asked if Jesus (in His humanity) is immutable now, concerning His being moved to compassion, I do believe Jesus now is different (glorified) than during His earthly ministry. I rather think that we can think we could change His mind "as if" we could move Him to act compassionately towards us while knowing that I do believe His divine nature is no longer "put aside" after His Resurrection.

If there is scripture of The post Resurrection Jesus showing that He is mutable (concerning changing feelings) I will shut up and desist for what I have found by reading the bible there is an discernible "difference" in Jesus before and after His Resurrection.

Christ will always remain very much a human being - albeit a glorified and exalted human being.

Human beings in their very nature are both mutable and passible. But although - in His humanity - Christ is both mutable and passible, in Heaven in His glorified and exalted state He is beyond suffering,but not beyond compassion and fellow feeling, as we will be when we join Him there. Christ and the saints in glory know the end from the beginning in a way that we don't.

that "like Him" will entail us having no more tears which is In my most humble opinion an indication a lack of pain, suffering and true feelings of such in the future state of the new heavens and earth.

It doesn't say that we will be incapable of these things, just that they will not be there because there will be no reason for them. You're subtily and rationalistically adding to what Scripture says.

Thank you Richard.
 
During His ministry 2,000 years ago He was, but is He now?

I think I understand what you are trying to ask, but if I'm right about it, "impassible" would be the wrong term. "Impassible" means that something is not subject to pain or feeling. Jesus was not impassible, obviously.

But it's an interesting question, does Jesus still feel emotion in heaven? I would say yes, He does, and I don't believe we have to enter the "does God have emotions" debate (which we've discussed here before, and not discussed impassibly, I'd add!).

Jesus remains fully God and fully man. So, He must have emotions. Also, we read in Heb. 12:2, "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." Are we to believe that Jesus would enter heaven and not experience joy anymore?

That's all I have time to post now, but it's a start!

I was reading your post again Marie and you do a very good job of peaking my curosity as per my original post. You ask..."does Jesus still feel emotion in heaven? "

If we use the word emotion as a feeling that comes from a cause outside of ones self, can we say Jesus has emotions today? Now I can see where Jesus, in His humanity 2,000 years ago did indeed have emotions as I defined here because He was limited in His humanity and as yet was not glorified and did not know what was around the corner (according to His humanity) which effected the emotional responce. So does the glorified Jesus know the future (in His humanity) today? If so can we predicate emotions on Him knowing He does not react to events that he knows are going to happen. I say no , given the definition of emotions I laid forth. Of course this is why I ask ....Does the glorified Jesus know everything in the future, today (according to His humanity)?
 
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