Is Sex Before Marriage wrong?

[ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

I have a friend that almost believes that sex before marriage isn't wrong if one intends to get married. He said the scriptures he found basically define sexual immorality as "get one partner and stick with them" and that it is not sexual "immorality" if one is having sex with someone they will live with forever. Maybe sex marries them to God. So he is defining sexual immorality as having multible sex partners and making it not meaningful....

I want to tell him YES IT'S WRONG! I am having trouble backing it up. I say "sexual immorality" and he says interpreting scripture by scripture "sexual immorality" is making sex meaningful.

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

 

[Augusta]

for·ni·ca·tion (fôrn-kshn)
n.
Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other.


Romans 1:28-32

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

What would Jesus do?

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by puritansailor]

 

[Augusta]

 

[Bladestunner316]

Sex before marriage is a terorist tactic to get rid of our freedom and liberty oops wrong thread jk lol.

why dont they just get married??

Why waste time on sex when you could be reading a book.

blade

 

[ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

Originally posted by Augusta
for·ni·ca·tion (fôrn-kshn)
n.
Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other.


Romans 1:28-32

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness,
maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

That is the english definition from the King James translation, other translations like the New King James define that same verse with words that can contradict it by their english definition (i.e. sexual immorality). Interesting enough all the other translations don't even mention fornication or sexual immorality in this verse.


HCM -They are filled with all unrighteousness, evil, greed, and wickedness. They are full of envy, murder, disputes, deceit, and malice. They are gossips,

NASB- being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, R52

NKJ- being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, F3 wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,

NIV-29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,

Amplified-29Until they were filled (permeated and saturated) with every kind of unrighteousness, iniquity, grasping and covetous greed, and malice. [They were] full of envy and jealousy, murder, strife, deceit and treachery, ill will and cruel ways. [They were] secret backbiters and gossipers,


Can you define fornication with scripture? What is the greek word for this term, and how is it defined?

 

[Ex Nihilo]

People believe what they want to believe about sex, regardless of the clear statements of the Bible. I once had a friend try to tell me that the Bible really didn't say much about sex. He believed adultery was all right as long as his wife agreed.

 

[cupotea]

Originally posted by Bladestunner316
Why waste time on sex when you could be reading a book.

blade

 

[cupotea]

... My signature appears to be missing... That's odd...


... And now it's not... Never mind!

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Cottonball]

 

[tdowns]

Originally posted by Cottonball

Originally posted by Bladestunner316
Why waste time on sex when you could be reading a book.

blade

Surely this is a joke...I love books, but not even close to...in the confines of marriage of course.

Sex outside of marriage is one of those lies that seem so appealing, and very logical to our fallen nature. As a Christian, thinking it through, and seeing all the ramifications of sex outside of marriage, it really is the most logical, common sense practice--to have sex with someone you are committed to for life, and bound to by law and God. But to the outside world, it just seems strange to wait for marriage.

Meanwhile...

STD's
Emotional confusion
Physical problems
Children out of wedlock
loneliness
guilt
lack of maturation
etc.

All are the fruits of sex outside of marriage.

Joy,
commitment,
companionship,
sanctification,
Children,
Physical health,
and let's not forget
Fun, fun, fun,


Are the fruits of sex within the confines of marriage and marriage itself.

Marriage is a great thing, but can be a chore, work that sanctifies..., sex is a fantastic thing, one of the rewards of marriage, the sex is the appealing part, that can be a motivater to take on the challenging, but rewarding, responsibility of marriage...like Grandma used to say, why buy the cow if you get the milk for free. Every study shows, sex before marriage is not a good thing, yet what does our culture promote?

Find your girl or guy, and through council with Godly men, get married!

Girls, trust me DO NOT GIVE THE MILK FOR FREE--wait for marriage, you will be sorry if you don't, it's just a fact.

BOYS, RESPECT THOSE GIRLS!!!!!! TREASURE THEM, AND MARRY THEM!

TDREVOLVER
Going on 9 years marriage, and every day it gets better!

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by tdowns007]

 

[ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

Originally posted by Ex Nihilo
People believe what they want to believe about sex, regardless of the clear statements of the Bible. I once had a friend try to tell me that the Bible really didn't say much about sex. He believed adultery was all right as long as his wife agreed.

What is the clear statement of the Bible about this issue?

 

[Bladestunner316]

well I was and was not joking here I posed this question to my mother and grandmother when we had dinner over the weekend for V-Day.

Imagine all the time we corporeals spend on Sex, Sexuality, and Social to Romantic relationships with the opposite sex??

If we took that time away from that granted we didnt desire corporeal reproduction as badly as we tend to do. And how much farther the gospel could be spread let alone all the achievements that could be done to benefit humanity in a Godly way(as opposed to the UN Star Trek type way) ???

We spend so much time and emotions over an issue that to its utmost extent only takes 10 minutes at the most of fruitition.

books are much better but yet tell us one simple thing man is a created being born a sinner and no matter what the name creates problems and commits the same stupid mistakes over and over again.

blade

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus

Originally posted by Ex Nihilo
People believe what they want to believe about sex, regardless of the clear statements of the Bible. I once had a friend try to tell me that the Bible really didn't say much about sex. He believed adultery was all right as long as his wife agreed.

What is the clear statement of the Bible about this issue?

Honestly, I believe it is fairly clear on fornication, but if there weren't just enough ambiguity to allow people to presume liberties they don't have, we wouldn't have this thread. My main point with "clear statements," however, was not to imply that including fornication within the confines of "sexual immorality" is so obvious that it is not worth discussing. By "clear statements" I was referring to the very clear prohibitions against adultery (which, even if one allows for polygamy, do not allow a man to have sex with whomever he pleases without marrying the women). My friend was trying to make the argument that a man may have sex with basically any woman as long as she is not married to someone else. The point I was making is that even these commands can be sugarcoated by those who would behave as they please regardless.

I do believe that, as has already been discussed, the New Testament passages that refer to sexual immorality include premarital sex. Some would say this is begging the question, however. I think some of the best support comes from 1 Corinthians 8:36, which says, "If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry--it is no sin." What constitutes "behaving properly"? The next verse, which allows that a person may remain unmarried if he is "under no necessity but having his desire under control" gives, in my opinion, a pretty clear indication. The failure to behave properly must somehow relate to the inability to control desires. If there is such a thing as "behaving properly" toward a betrothed (or virgin, however you translate the text), there must be restrictions placed on that behavior. The assumption throughout is that everyone already knows what those restrictions are, as even many pagan societies throughout history have intuitively known: Sex is for marriage.

The Old Testament provides some additional clarification. In Exodus 22:16 (and later in Deuteronomy 23:28) a man who sleeps with an unbetrothed virgin must pay the bride price for her and then marry her if her father agrees. Now, an engaged couple might believe they are outside the restrictions that are clarified in the Old Testament, since it deals with categories of a) unengaged virgins and b) virgins engaged to another man. Where does it deal with the situation of a man sleeping with his fiancee? (Maybe it does, and I'm missing it.) For one thing, would it be assumed that a man would not violate his own fiancee? But, just as we can go to the OT where the NT is ambiguous, we can look back at Paul for clarification: There are also restrictions on what a man may do with his betrothed. In any case, the situation in Exodus 22:16 shows that the man who sleeps with the unmarried woman should marry her. It doesn't state that he should get engaged to her or promise to marry her at some time in the future. There is no idea that the couple may continue their activities just because they have promised to get married.

Nor is there any idea that the couple is "really married" already in the eyes of God. This is one of the most ridiculous ideas advocated by those who want to argue that sex between engaged people is all right. Yes, sex does make the man and woman one flesh, which should only take place within marriage, but sex does not equal some sort of mystical marriage union. Marriage forms the basic unit of society, and marriage vows are a community concern. This is really the core issue here, since most will agree that the Bible teaches fidelity for life. Is your sexual activity your private concern or should it be within the confines of a community-sanctioned vow? The idea constantly put forward in the OT that adultery is a community concern that should be purged from the land shows that sexual activity is more than just a private action. Misuse of it affects everyone. This is why public vows are needed to make a marriage "real." A couple who have not yet made public vows within their community structure but choose to have sex anyway are not "really" married in the eyes of God, they are really fornicators.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Originally posted by Bladestunner316
If we took that time away from that granted we didnt desire corporeal reproduction as badly as we tend to do. And how much farther the gospel could be spread let alone all the achievements that could be done to benefit humanity in a Godly way(as opposed to the UN Star Trek type way) ???

And if Christians didn't desire children, they'd have more time to evangelize foreign countries. But does that mean Christians shouldn't have children and should instead devote all their efforts to outreach? That wouldn't be consistent with the rest of the Bible, which teaches that children are a blessing. And of course, all we Presbyterians on the board (and probably the Baptists, too) believe that the family (frankly, originating in sexual intercourse) is the normal means of evangelism. By the grace of God, I, as a single person, don't know this from personal experience, but sex is a great thing, not something we should look down on as a distraction from God's real purposes:

"Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous." (Hebrews 13:4)

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Ex Nihilo]

 

[Bladestunner316]

I didnt mean to imply that we shouldnt have children or desire to do so. My intent probably not written well was that we(society) as a whole tend to spend too much time absorbed in the issue than need be. Time which could be spent elsewhere.

blade

p.s. Im single never dated dont really want to and at present dont really desire marriage. My overall consenses is that Im way to immature to be in a serious relationship. Let alone a Husband and Father. Frankly woman as far as related to dating who have shown interest in me scare me to death. Not that they are scary but the idea of being actively persued or looked upon in that role scares me.

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Bladestunner316]

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Originally posted by Bladestunner316
p.s. Im single never dated dont really want to and at present dont really desire marriage. My overall consenses is that Im way to immature to be in a serious relationship. Let alone a Husband and Father. Frankly woman as far as related to dating who have shown interest in me scare me to death. Not that they are scary but the idea of being actively persued or looked upon in that role scares me.

With good reason. I think marriage is pretty scary when you realize the seriousness of the issue, which you obviously do.

 

[BobVigneault]

Great thoughts Evie, I would add this. It is to easy to fall into the trap that our culture has set before us. Sex apart from marriage is unthinkable. Sex is part of the package of marriage. Sex is to marriage what fruit is to a smoothie. (That's not biblical except in a very loose paraphrase of Song of Solomon.)

My point is, our culture for many years as truncated sex so that it might appear to be an end in itself. Movies portray love as a progression that ends in sex.

Marriage is a grand package that includes lifetime commitment, romance, anticipation, sex, seeking God's will together, pain and tribulation, respect. Sex is fully enjoyed only as part of the package. To take sex out of the package is to destroy it's context and cause it to morph into something bizarre and evil. When manna wasn't consumed properly it rotted and was infested with worms.

So when you ask, can one have sex outside of marriage, the answer is no! because sex, outside of marriage, ceases to be sex. It is a truncated and deformed malady that leads to selfish gratification, loving pleasure and using people to achieve it.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus

Originally posted by Ex Nihilo
People believe what they want to believe about sex, regardless of the clear statements of the Bible. I once had a friend try to tell me that the Bible really didn't say much about sex. He believed adultery was all right as long as his wife agreed.

What is the clear statement of the Bible about this issue?

Tim,
Again, where is the clear statement in the bible about the trinity? New Testament Tithing? Covenant of Redemption? There is necessary inference on the subject. You will not find the statement, "Sex before marriage is a sin". I asked you to study the subject of N.I.; have you? Hermeneutically, you are aware that it is a necessary discipline?

God has assuredly preserved the idea that sex outside of the marriage bed is sin. History of the church has embraced the principle. Brilliant thinkers of the past have commented on the premise; clearly. Gods word has been preserved over the ages; His hand surely upon it. The church will prevail, the gates of hell will not. The HS is guide; He will guide us into all truth. There is nothing new under the sun. In the same way, this is why you have never seen anything other than that which has been presented above by your brothers and sisters in Christ. This is what God wants His church to know in regards to the subject.

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]

 

[RamistThomist]

Tim,
Again, where is the clear statement in the bible about the trinity? New Testament Tithing? Covenant of Redemption? There is necessary inference on the subject. You will not find the statement, "Sex before marriage is a sin". I asked you to study the subject of N.I.; have you? Hermeneutically, you are aware that it is a necessary discipline?

And might I add, women taking the Lord's supper? Ok seriously.
I went to bed right before this thread was posted and it exploded. Great thoughts everybody.

Blade,

My overall consenses is that Im way to immature to be in a serious relationship.[/quote

That realisation is a sign of maturity that could be lacking in many about to be married.

 

[cupotea]

Originally posted by Bladestunner316
we(society) as a whole tend to spend too much time absorbed in the issue than need be. Time which could be spent elsewhere.
...Im single never dated dont really want to and at present dont really desire marriage. My overall consenses is that Im way to immature to be in a serious relationship.
[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Bladestunner316]

Hey Blade, you know what I thought of:

"I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided." (1 Cor 7:32-34).

 

[ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

Originally posted by tdowns007

Originally posted by Cottonball

Originally posted by Bladestunner316
Why waste time on sex when you could be reading a book.

blade

Surely this is a joke...I love books, but not even close to...in the confines of marriage of course.

Sex outside of marriage is one of those lies that seem so appealing, and very logical to our fallen nature. As a Christian, thinking it through, and seeing all the ramifications of sex outside of marriage, it really is the most logical, common sense practice--to have sex with someone you are committed to for life, and bound to by law and God. But to the outside world, it just seems strange to wait for marriage.

Meanwhile...

STD's
Emotional confusion
Physical problems
Children out of wedlock
loneliness
guilt
lack of maturation
etc.

All are the fruits of sex outside of marriage.

Joy,
commitment,
companionship,
sanctification,
Children,
Physical health,
and let's not forget
Fun, fun, fun,


Are the fruits of sex within the confines of marriage and marriage itself.

Marriage is a great thing, but can be a chore, work that sanctifies..., sex is a fantastic thing, one of the rewards of marriage, the sex is the appealing part, that can be a motivater to take on the challenging, but rewarding, responsibility of marriage...like Grandma used to say, why buy the cow if you get the milk for free. Every study shows, sex before marriage is not a good thing, yet what does our culture promote?

Find your girl or guy, and through council with Godly men, get married!

Girls, trust me DO NOT GIVE THE MILK FOR FREE--wait for marriage, you will be sorry if you don't, it's just a fact.

BOYS, RESPECT THOSE GIRLS!!!!!! TREASURE THEM, AND MARRY THEM!

TDREVOLVER
Going on 9 years marriage, and every day it gets better!

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by tdowns007]

I don't think he is trying to justify multiple sex partners. I think he is trying to say that sex basically makes the couple man and wife, and if they break up it is sinful as divorce. In theory it is still staying amongst two people, and anything more is adultry. Like once a couple has become one flesh they must stay that way. This seems crazy to me since I've always thought this common sense, since the word fornication was in the Bible, but then I realized it's only in the KJV version... Augustus argument was very poor in my opinion. Exegesis Fallicies make peoples thoughts untrustworthy. We must have very good hermenuics and not let culture "americanize/modernize" us but stand our ground.

I haven't read the threads below the one I'm replying to now, because I am typing up this huge thing on Limited Atonement. I will read them prob. later tonight.

 

[Scott Bushey]

We must have very good hermenuics and not let culture "americanize/modernize" us but stand our ground.

Tim,
The only problem with what you are saying is that no part of Christian history agree's with you; either on this point or the one previously on "Filthy language". So, based upon that, one of a few things is occuring. Either you are presuppositionally holding to a line of thought, i.e. solo scriptura or your misunderstanding of Sola scriptura, or your hermeneutic is flawed. Which one is it?

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Scott, I think your hermeneutic in reading this thread is flawed. Do you even know what Tim is trying to say?

 

[Bladestunner316]

Jacob,
I appreciate the thought I dont want to get ahead of myslef I defenitelly as evie said realize the seriousness about marriage but am still plagued with sinful flesh that goes against what I want to do and think.

Cottonball,
Good Verse

blade

 

[a mere housewife]

"Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled." I don't know Greek... but this seems to imply that the bed is defiled outside of marriage. That seems quite clear to me.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Gabriel,
You tell me:

Here is what Tim stated in the first post:

I want to tell him YES IT'S WRONG! I am having trouble backing it up. I say "sexual immorality" and he says interpreting scripture by scripture "sexual immorality" is making sex meaningful.

We are again visiting the same idea as was visited in the "Filthy Talking" thread, no? Scripture defines scripture! However, as Tim alludes, he see's nowhere in scripture to back this up. He finds no passage that says, 'Sex outside of marriage is illicit'. This is a flawed hermeneutic; history proves this. History has supported the scripturally inferred idea that sex outside of marriage is in fact sin.

This quote validates my claim:

This seems crazy to me since I've always thought this common sense, since the word fornication was in the Bible, but then I realized it's only in the KJV version... Augustus argument was very poor in my opinion. Exegesis Fallicies make peoples thoughts untrustworthy. We must have very good hermenuics and not let culture "americanize/modernize" us but stand our ground.

Is this clearer for you young man?





[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]

 

[ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Gabriel,
You tell me:

Here is what Tim stated in the first post:

I want to tell him YES IT'S WRONG! I am having trouble backing it up. I say "sexual immorality" and he says interpreting scripture by scripture "sexual immorality" is making sex meaningful.

We are again visiting the same idea as was visited in the "Filthy Talking" thread, no? Scripture defines scripture! However, as Tim alludes, he see's nowhere in scripture to back this up. He finds no passage that says, 'Sex outside of marriage is illicit'. This is a flawed hermeneutic; history proves this. History has supported the scripturally inferred idea that sex outside of marriage is in fact sin.

This quote validates my claim:

This seems crazy to me since I've always thought this common sense, since the word fornication was in the Bible, but then I realized it's only in the KJV version... Augustus argument was very poor in my opinion. Exegesis Fallicies make peoples thoughts untrustworthy. We must have very good hermenuics and not let culture "americanize/modernize" us but stand our ground.

Is this clearer for you young man?

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]

Scott your flipping out and assuming/ putting words in my mouth like usual. You are saying I am trying to justify covenant unfaithfulness!

I am not justifying sex out of marriage. I am only revealing another view.

Which is:

Basically marriage (or beginning a covenant) begins at becoming one flesh. I can only assert this from what I've read and heard; having sex with someone is a huge deal, it involves a huge emotional investment, and testimonies claim things as feeling as if they had been giving the partner "part of their soul,” thus there is some abstract, innate feeling to it similar to when a pagan views something as evil in it’s self. Therefore a breakup after this type of relationship is really no different than a divorce except without all the legal papers. What defines marriage: The ceremony, or the act of becoming one flesh? If becoming one flesh makes the covenant, then the only grounds of divorcing the other flesh is when the flesh presents covenant unfaithfulness or dies off. Thus when a person who has had sex while not being deemed marred by the state “break up” it is defined as divorce and covenant unfaithfulness of the flesh, in the Bible. Thus anyone who becomes one flesh and then ends the relationship ends the covenant and become a divorcee'.

Thus sex is marriage....

Both ways exalt covenant faithfulness, In fact this other way is more hardcore.

Do not think that I am representing or adhering to any covenant unfaithfulness!

Also I am not asserting anything yet. I am going to take this to the scriptures.

Also, be honest please. When you labeled Gabe as a "young man" were you doign so in a degrading way?

[Edited on 2-17-2005 by ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

 

[RamistThomist]

Tim,
I am paraphrasing but didn't God define marriage as a man leaving his father and THEN becoming one with his wife. You keep hitting on the second part while disregarding the first.

 

[RamistThomist]

I will make an inference,
The man leaving his father implies that he is ready to support/raise/care for a family on his own. That is not what teenages have in mind on Saturday night.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus
[I don't think he is trying to justify multiple sex partners. I think he is trying to say that sex basically makes the couple man and wife, and if they break up it is sinful as divorce.

And this, as I have already argued, has no scriptural basis whatsoever. As I said before, marriage is an institution with a necessarily public aspect. It's not just between two people and God... it's between two people, God, and their community. I honestly think much of this idea that "it's all right if you're going to get married" goes straight back to the movement toward individualism and away from the concept of a covenant community.

Really, if you are in a situation where you believe you are ready to be "man and wife before God" (though such a thing does NOT exist outside of being man and wife before God and everyone), why don't you go ahead and get married? Are you not financially ready to support yourselves? Then you're unable to meet the basic marriage requirement of leaving your parents and cleaving to each other. Do you lack the maturity to get married? All the more reason why you should not have sex--are you ready to handle the potential pregnancy that might arise? Pretty much any good reason to hold off on marriage necessitates holding off on sex, too... For whatever reason you aren't ready for formal marriage, you aren't prepared for the potential consequences of sex. If you aren't ready to be married before the community, there is no reason to think you are ready to be married in some mystical union before God.

And if you're only holding off on the marriage because you need a year to plan your dream wedding and yet you can't control yourself physically in the meantime... see above argument about immaturity.

(Note: Though I'm using the second person, here, I realize that you do not believe this, Tim. "You" is generic.)