Is the bodily resurrection of humans important?

[DanSSwing]

Let me begin by clearly affirming that I believe the bodily resurrection of Jesus is an essential element of the Christian faith (not because it prefigures what will happen to us but because it confirms Jesus' claims), and I also believe in the bodily resurrection of humans in general. I'm also not asking whether the bodily resurrection of humans is biblical but whether it's important whether the Bible speaks of it or not.

There have definitely been some people (take Hiroshima and Nagasaki for example), including some Christians, who were essentially vaporized when they died. My current suspicion is that God will, in His infinite knowledge, find a few of their atoms and change that into their resurrection body. But I find myself thinking, if He can do that and He can, why would I care HOW He creates my resurrection body? I only really care that my spirit is in it. Thoughts?

 

[davejonescue]

Let me begin by clearly affirming that I believe the bodily resurrection of Jesus is an essential element of the Christian faith (not because it prefigures what will happen to us but because it confirms Jesus' claims), and I also believe in the bodily resurrection of humans in general. I'm also not asking whether the bodily resurrection of humans is biblical but whether it's important whether the Bible speaks of it or not.

There have definitely been some people (take Hiroshima and Nagasaki for example), including some Christians, who were essentially vaporized when they died. My current suspicion is that God will, in His infinite knowledge, find a few of their atoms and change that into their resurrection body. But I find myself thinking, if He can do that and He can, why would I care HOW He creates my resurrection body? I only really care that my spirit is in it. Thoughts?

We shouldnt really care how it is resurrected (meaning, what we will become,) anyways. I believe John says "we do not know what we will be like (or what we shall be) but we know we will be like him (Jesus) because we will see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 . We will be glorified, sinless, and perfect. Also, I wouldnt really worry about God needing atoms to recreate us; he created the cosmos ex nihilo.

 

[Polanus1561]

Who are these people speculating on the How?

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hi Dan,

It is important beyond our knowing! Like as when we marry, we do not marry but the spirit of our spouses, but the entirety of them, body and soul.

When the Lord Jesus, who was raised bodily from the dead, glorified with the glory He had with the Father from eternity, and in whom now dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, when He consummates His marriage to His bride, His very Body, the Church – which I believe will occur at the marriage supper of the Lamb on New Earth – then we, fully united with Him, will have the infinite glory, majesty, and love of the Godhead within us also, not intrinsically but by virtue of His being in us, and we in Him.

Is this not the "blessed hope" (Titus 2:13) we await, the inheritance of the saints in light (Col 1:12), the beatific vision of our spiritual Husband and the Godhead within Him, now part of our own being? We await a glory beyond what we can imagine.

How He will do this? He who know all the stars in the billions of galaxies He made by name, shall He not easily reconstitute our bodies – in perfect health and maturity – so as to be a Bride without spot or blemish, meet for the King of heaven and earth? It is for this glory and honor we are sanctified, and being sanctified.

 

[TheInquirer]

Does this have anything to do with cremation vs burial by any chance?

 

[DanSSwing]

Who are these people speculating on the How?

I'm following the Gentry-Demar preterism discussion and got to thinking about the bodily resurrection question. Now consider this in light of the "Reformed Thomism" that has suddenly become popular, and I can see how someone might make the "how" an element of orthodoxy. I think what really needs to be specified is if "bodily" refers to the current physical body, the future resurrection body, or necessarily both. I tend to believe it's both, but I'm not convinced that it MUST be both.

The question wasn't motivated by cremation vs. burial, but it's certainly related. If I wouldn't mind having my resurrection body reconstituted from the few atoms that remained after cremation (or nuclear evaporation), why would I mind if God just gave me a resurrection body from scratch? Either one is more than I deserve in the first place.

 

[Ulster Fry]

First of all, this isn't about Reformed Thomism. It's about the importance of our creeds and confessions and why it's no coincidence that when they are thrown out the window, it's always tied to confusion and heresy.

Second, doesn't Paul address your question in 1 Corinthians 15? Especially vv35-38 and following. Here it is in the NKJV, though the whole chapter is relevant:

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

 

[RamistThomist]

Here is some more background information that I kind of knew but found more on. When Gary says he hasn't studied the resurrection that much, he might be telling the truth. He has spent 30 years rebutting the wackiness in dispensationalism. He used preterist and hyper preterist arguments to do so. He never paid attention to how important 1 Cor 15 is.

So when Ken Gentry starts pushing back, Gary challenges him probably so that Ken will do some of the hard work on the resurrection for him.

This is a good example of what happens when you let a lower tier idea like "fighting dispensationalism" eclipse basic truths like the resurrection of the body.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Dan,

In your post 6 you said, "I think what really needs to be specified is if 'bodily' refers to the current physical body, the future resurrection body, or necessarily both. I tend to believe it's both, but I'm not convinced that it MUST be both."

See what Jesus says here, in the evening on the day of His resurrection: "Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord" (John 20:19,20). 8 days later, when doubting Thomas was among them, He said to him, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing” (John 20:27 NKJV).

See also Luke 24:36,37,38,39,40 of the same account. This was His physical and His resurrection body, although the glory of it was not manifested.

 

[arapahoepark]

Dan,

In your post 6 you said, "I think what really needs to be specified is if 'bodily' refers to the current physical body, the future resurrection body, or necessarily both. I tend to believe it's both, but I'm not convinced that it MUST be both."

See what Jesus says here, in the evening on the day of His resurrection: "Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord" (John 20:19,20). 8 days later, when doubting Thomas was among them, He said to him, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing” (John 20:27 NKJV).

See also Luke 24:36,37,38,39,40 of the same account. This was His physical and His resurrection body, although the glory of it was not manifested.

Sure.
But I think he is asking about what if they are cremated and perhaps, like Zwingli, not necessarily at their will. Would scars, for instance, be present?
I believe that is what is being asked.

 

[beloved7]

The Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:13-14 teaches us that our entire religion hinges on the resurrection of the dead; it is not a matter of debate. It’s required for orthodoxy.

In regard to cremation, I personally do not agree with it but in no way do I think that can prevent God from raising His own. Romans 8:38-39.

 

[DanSSwing]

The Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:13-14 teaches us that our entire religion hinges on the resurrection of the dead; it is not a matter of debate. It’s required for orthodoxy.

Absolutely. But which of the minute details are required for orthodoxy?

 

[beloved7]

Absolutely. But which of the minute details are required for orthodoxy?

The literal resurrection of the dead, described comprehensively in LBCF chapter 31. I would argue all three paragraphs are required for orthodoxy.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Here's the 1689 on this: https://www.the1689confession.com/1689/chapter-31

The WCF 32 is almost identical.

We return to dust (whether the minute particles of earth or the dust of ashes) and are raised "with the selfsame bodies, and none other (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls forever." (From paragraph 2)

These confessions are in accord with Scripture.

 

[RamistThomist]

If we aren't bodily raised, then worms win. I know preterists don't like being called gnostics, but it's hard to see how they aren't.

 

[Jack K]

How will Christ raise our bodies when he returns? And how can we be confident that he will do this in the case of bodies that have so deteriorated they no longer bear any resemblance to the body that was once alive? As with many truths about Christ's return, we gain confidence from the fact that he has done it before, in the opening pages of Genesis: "Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being" (Genesis 2:7). The Lord did it once, and he will again take the particles of dust (that used to be our bodies) and re-create from them a living being, reunited with the soul.

Affirming this truth falls into the same general category as believing the other truths about Christ's return: that he is indeed alive and coming, that he will judge all people, that he will bring believers into eternal life and unbelievers into eternal punishment, that he will finish defeating the devil and his angels, etc. To deny it puts a person in the camp of those refuted in the epistle of 2 Peter, where these basic truths about the end times are defended (largely using the Genesis-based argument that Christ has done it before and will do these things again).

Today's Western culture de-emphasizes the body. Even in sound churches, many believers today think about the life after Christ returns as a soul-only existence because the culture has conditioned them to feel good about such a life. I can't tell you how many times I have had to correct my Sunday school kids about this: they are constantly exposed to the idea that we are soul-first, body-second beings. This false belief leads not just to too-small expectations about the life to come, but to much confusion about sexuality, gender, purpose in this life, and holy living.

The bodily resurrection is a very important truth. It is at or close to the core of what it means to have Christian faith. Perhaps it is not quite as central as, say, the deity of Christ, but it comes close, being part of the historic creeds.

 

[PointyHaired Calvinist]

Full Preterism is “orthodox Gnosticism.” God never redeems the physical creation, doesn’t raise us in a body like Jesus, allows sin and death to continue forever (at least until the heat death in countless trillions of years). It’s pretty bleak if you think the creation is “very good.”

(Also the FP’s I’ve seen have been some of the most dismissive, arrogant people in Christendom. I guess when you dismiss 2000 years of consistent doctrine there has to be a bit of hubris. Unfortunately Demar is debating - or refusing to debate - like an old school liberal, and his supporters are just awful in how they’re dealing with this very humble open letter.)

 

[RamistThomist]

If FPs are right, then we are living in a snuff film. If you follow these guys on social media, they really believe that unless you believe that Jesus came back in 70 AD, you don't believe in the atonement. They are truly vile heretics.

 

[DanSSwing]

If FPs are right, then we are living in a snuff film. If you follow these guys on social media, they really believe that unless you believe that Jesus came back in 70 AD, you don't believe in the atonement. They are truly vile heretics.

Who are these FPs on social media? I don't think I've ever met one or even seen one arguing on the internet. I don't even know how one would begin to explain justice for the evil after 70 AD if you believe the final judgment took place in 70 AD.

 

[RamistThomist]

Who are these FPs on social media? I don't think I've ever met one or even seen one arguing on the internet. I don't even know how one would begin to explain justice for the evil after 70 AD if you believe the final judgment took place in 70 AD.

Kim Burgess, the man who is mentoring Gary Demar. Also see Don Preston

 

[PointyHaired Calvinist]

Kim Burgess, the man who is mentoring Gary Demar. Also see Don Preston

Yeah Facebook has had a lot of these discussions. Burgess is the best thing since sliced bread for Gary Demar these days.

 

[arapahoepark]

This Kim Burgess?
But, seriously who is that who don't have facebook?

 

[Pilgrim]

Kim Burgess, the man who is mentoring Gary Demar. Also see Don Preston

Has he embraced full preterism within the past decade, maybe? He's "friends" with a ton of Reformed people. I'm pretty sure I was "friends" with him at one point too but may have unfriended him when I saw he was a full preterist later on. (I also used to be "friends" with a flat earther who wasn't emphasizing that at first.) But when everybody was getting on Facebook, there was a tendency among many of us to send requests or accept requests from those who had a lot of mutual friends.

 

[Pilgrim]

This Kim Burgess?View attachment 10119
But, seriously who is that who don't have facebook?

This looks like a podcast they've been doing together. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/covenant-hermeneutics-and-biblical-eschatology/id1664297952

 

[Pilgrim]

Yeah Facebook has had a lot of these discussions. Burgess is the best thing since sliced bread for Gary Demar these days.

I just looked at some of the comments last night. There is a man who appears to be a Southern Baptist pastor arguing for full preterism too. (The church search option doesn't seem to be working so I can't confirm that the church is in fact SBC at the moment.)

 

[Eyedoc84]

In terms of cremation, we shouldn’t oppose it on “scientific” grounds in terms of the resurrection. That is, it’s not as if a body reduced to ashes can’t be reconstituted by God in the resurrection. Rather, it is opposed on theological grounds. Pagans burn their dead. A Christian buries both out of respect/dignity for the body created by God, and in faith as a seed planted.

 

[pgwolv]

In terms of cremation, we shouldn’t oppose it on “scientific” grounds in terms of the resurrection. That is, it’s not as if a body reduced to ashes can’t be reconstituted by God in the resurrection. Rather, it is opposed on theological grounds. Pagans burn their dead. A Christian buries both out of respect/dignity for the body created by God, and in faith as a seed planted.

I have never thought of burial vs. cremation in this way. Can anyone point me to good material to read on this topic?

EDIT: I have just discovered old threads on this topic, I don't know why I asked before looking there!

 

[Scott Bushey]

Mark 9:43–47 (ESV): And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,

 

[The Original Secession]

The Reformed Church in the United States (the old German Reformed Church) did an outstanding job of dealing with the question of creamation and how bodies should be disposed of in a synod report they released some years ago. Here is a link:

http://www.rescuetheperishing.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/RCUS-Synod-Study-Report-on-Cremation-with-updated-recommendations-adopted-by-the-273rd-Synod.pdf

 

[pgwolv]

The Reformed Church in the United States (the old German Reformed Church) did an outstanding job of dealing with the question of creamation and how bodies should be disposed of in a synod report they released some years ago. Here is a link:

http://www.rescuetheperishing.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/RCUS-Synod-Study-Report-on-Cremation-with-updated-recommendations-adopted-by-the-273rd-Synod.pdf

Thank you, I will go through that