Is the face of God the cause of the second death?

[Alive in Christ]

We know it is written that no man can see God's face and live. And in the beginning we see Adam and Eve hiding from God in the garden after having sinned. Likewise it says in Revelation that heaven and earth flee from the face of God but no place will found for them. We see Peter jumping into the ocean to get away from Jesus because he was naked. And some translations speak of everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord. So I got to thinking, if it's seeing the face of God that we Christians look forward to, and this experience is what will be eternal life for us in that it will sanctify us completely, making us like our Lord, I'm wondering if it's possible that the same experience equals eternal damnation for those in sin. That is, to see God's face without the blood covering is an irreversible damnation (e.g the second death).

 

[Contra_Mundum]

2Ths.1:9, "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."

This amounts to both 1) being blasted away from the presence--in the OT, this language is literally "before the face of," the visage--of the Lord; and 2) fleeing from that presence, Is.17:13, "God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased."

To be apart from God is death, Ps.73:27. This is the lot of whomever is not drawn to God, who desires to see God, Ps.17:15; and who will behold him in the face of Jesus, 2Cor.4:6.

 

[Alive in Christ]

2Ths.1:9, "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."

This amounts to both 1) being blasted away from the presence--in the OT, this language is literally "before the face of," the visage--of the Lord; and 2) fleeing from that presence, Is.17:13, "God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased."

To be apart from God is death, Ps.73:27. This is the lot of whomever is not drawn to God, who desires to see God, Ps.17:15; and who will behold him in the face of Jesus, 2Cor.4:6.

Thank you brother. Greek is difficult when you don't know the first thing about it (and that's me), but it is interesting that the extreme literal word for word translation of 2 Thes 1:9 mentions age-enduring destruction from the face of the Lord. It just brought to my mind various other verses, such as man not being able to see God's face and "live". It is true that most scholars believe Paul is saying that unbelievers will be shut out away from God's face. But this doesn't harmonize well with the verse in Revelation 14:10 which absolutely suggests that the everlasting destruction is experienced in the very presence of the Lamb. That is what gives me pause about a dynamic translation of that verse - a literal translation just seems more consistent with the rest of scripture. I definitely hope you are correct, though.

 

[Phil D.]

Thank you brother. Greek is difficult when you don't know the first thing about it (and that's me), but it is interesting that the extreme literal word for word translation of 2 Thes 1:9 mentions age-enduring destruction from the face of the Lord. It just brought to my mind various other verses, such as man not being able to see God's face and "live". It is true that most scholars believe Paul is saying that unbelievers will be shut out away from God's face. But this doesn't harmonize well with the verse in Revelation 14:10 which absolutely suggests that the everlasting destruction is experienced in the very presence of the Lamb. That is what gives me pause about a dynamic translation of that verse - a literal translation just seems more consistent with the rest of scripture. I definitely hope you are correct, though.

John Piper suggests a distinction in these two passages.

[Regarding] ...the presence of God in hell... there are two very relevant texts. Revelation 14:10, which gives the impression that the Lamb of God may be present in hell, says that those who worship the beast “will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.” And the other text is 2 Thessalonians 1:9: “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”​

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So, first, a word about Revelation 14:10. When it refers to the torments of hell in the presence of the Lamb, the term “in the presence of” means “in the sight of,” not “in the same space as.” The Greek word used [enōpion] literally is “before the Lamb”; they will be tormented “before the Lamb.” The same word is used in Revelation 3:2 like this: “I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.” That’s the same exact construction: “in the sight of my God,” “in the presence of my God.” He can see. It’s before him in that sense.​

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So when we say that something happens “in the sight of God” or “in the sight of the Lamb,” we don’t necessarily mean that God or the Lamb is in the same space of what they are seeing. So, I think Revelation 14:10 does not say that God or Jesus or the Lamb has some kind of ongoing residence in hell. But they can and do see hell.​

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Now, when 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that the punishments of hell will be “away from the presence of the Lord,” the word for presence there [prosópon] is face, “away from the face of the Lord.” In other words, hell is a fulfillment of the threat in Ezekiel 7:22, for example, where God says, “I will turn my face from them.” It’s the exact opposite of the blessing in Numbers 6:24–26: "The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine on you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace."​

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That’s the exact opposite of what happens in hell. That does not happen in hell. The gracious countenance of God does not shine upon them. And there is in hell an everlasting frown of disapproving justice.​

 

[Alive in Christ]

John Piper suggests a distinction in these two passages.

[Regarding] ...the presence of God in hell... there are two very relevant texts. Revelation 14:10, which gives the impression that the Lamb of God may be present in hell, says that those who worship the beast “will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.” And the other text is 2 Thessalonians 1:9: “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”​

​

So, first, a word about Revelation 14:10. When it refers to the torments of hell in the presence of the Lamb, the term “in the presence of” means “in the sight of,” not “in the same space as.” The Greek word used [enōpion] literally is “before the Lamb”; they will be tormented “before the Lamb.” The same word is used in Revelation 3:2 like this: “I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.” That’s the same exact construction: “in the sight of my God,” “in the presence of my God.” He can see. It’s before him in that sense.​

​

So when we say that something happens “in the sight of God” or “in the sight of the Lamb,” we don’t necessarily mean that God or the Lamb is in the same space of what they are seeing. So, I think Revelation 14:10 does not say that God or Jesus or the Lamb has some kind of ongoing residence in hell. But they can and do see hell.​

​

Now, when 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that the punishments of hell will be “away from the presence of the Lord,” the word for presence there [prosópon] is face, “away from the face of the Lord.” In other words, hell is a fulfillment of the threat in Ezekiel 7:22, for example, where God says, “I will turn my face from them.” It’s the exact opposite of the blessing in Numbers 6:24–26: "The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine on you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace."​

​

That’s the exact opposite of what happens in hell. That does not happen in hell. The gracious countenance of God does not shine upon them. And there is in hell an everlasting frown of disapproving justice.​

Thank God for sound doctrine, and thank God for those who know Koine Greek. I very much appreciate your response, as well as the response of brother Bruce. This just goes to show how important it is to not get carried away with an inaccurate translation.

 

[TheInquirer]

If God is omnipresent, He must be present in hell. The phrases you are citing are figures of speech of one sort or another. God is an invisible Spirit and has no literal “face.” Not being able to see His face and live likely pertains to a special manifestation of His glory.

Additionally, there are varying aspects of God’s presence. For example, His presence at the burning bush (which made the area holy ground) and the holy of holies is somehow different than His presence everywhere. There was a special manifestation of His presence in those places that was unique.