Is the rock beat / rock music sinful?

[alexandermsmith]

Then if Dave Mustaine's fruits are good, then we are justified in calling him a Christian, right? Also not sure why you poisoned the well by bringing Kanye into it.

His hair length is a violation of 1 Corinthians 11:14 and that's before we even get to the music.

Why is bringing Kanye into the discussion poisoning the well? According to many on this forum he is a righteous witness of Christ, a Reformed, Calvinist Christian, who is bringing the Gospel to millions through his music. And we who cautioned restraint were accused of being uncharitable. This is a very relevant example to bring into this discussion where it has been claimed that if something is being used for Christian purposes then it must be Christian.

 

[Santos]

By convicted do you mean you are more troubled by songs sung in your church than those you hear on the radio?

Yes. Often.

 

[alexandermsmith]

You could use that same argument to argue that we should not eat foods that taste good simply because they stimulate the flesh. I am not arguing that the flesh enjoying something automatically makes it good, but you seem to be making the opposite argument--that our default position should be that if the flesh enjoys something, then that makes it bad.

No that wasn't my argument. Your argument was that God designed our bodies to respond in certain ways to certain music as if it was natural for us to use aggressive music when "working out". My point was merely that just because our bodies respond a certain way to certain music doesn't justify the use of that music. Food is lawful. It is the lawfulness of music we are discussing here.

I agree with that, which is I would encourage young people in particular to completely any songs with immoral lyrics. But the older you are, the easier it becomes to enjoy the music while actively disagreeing with the lyrics--all taken on a case by case basis of course.

We are to be separate from worldly things, we are to "flee" from all temptations, lusts and ungodliness. Why even put oneself in the position of having to filter the lyrics from the music?

 

[Clark-Tillian]

Hi, I've heard that the beat used in rock music (called the rock beat or offbeat) was used by pagans in their demon worship. Since then I've felt uncomfortable listening to anything (rock or not) that has this beat.

I feel like this idea is not biblical though because (1) "everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving" (1 Tim 4:4). Based on this I would say there's nothing inherently sinful about any particular melody or beat or whatever. And (2) if pagans used that beat, how do we know if they didn't use other popular beats or melodies? How can we ever be sure that we aren't doing something that "the pagans did"?

What are your thoughts on the subject? Is the rock beat "learning the way of the heathen"?

If by "beat" you're referencing the general "style" of a certain piece of music, then that's fairly subjective. For many years as a new believer I found my old rock musical tastes to be a stumbling block. As I matured in the faith I was able to reincorporate some, but not all, to my listening. However, if by"beat" you're meaning a repeating pulse that underlies a musical pattern, then that is more objective and I fail to see how a musical pulse could be construed as "demonic". The same reasoning (on either side of the aisle) could be utilized to indict melody, harmony, steps/half-steps, syncopation etc., and away we go. I had a devout Pentecostal friend who told me I shouldn't listen to Tchaikovsky because "The guy was a homosexual"; I asked him if listening to Shostakovich would convert me to Stalinism, and he had no answer. Bottom line is this: if it's causing you or another to stumble, then avoid it like the plague, but be gracious when critiquing another person's musical choices.

 

[DanSSwing]

No that wasn't my argument. Your argument was that God designed our bodies to respond in certain ways to certain music as if it was natural for us to use aggressive music when "working out". My point was merely that just because our bodies respond a certain way to certain music doesn't justify the use of that music. Food is lawful. It is the lawfulness of music we are discussing here.

We are to be separate from worldly things, we are to "flee" from all temptations, lusts and ungodliness. Why even put oneself in the position of having to filter the lyrics from the music?

I'm not "tempted" at all by the lyrics. If anything, I'm reminded of the danger. I'm more tempted simply by driving down the highway and seeing billboards than by any lyrics I may listen to. But, as I said before, this probably WOULD be a temptation for a younger person or someone without a well-developed Christian worldview, and I would encourage them to be much more picky about their music.

 

[DanSSwing]

If by "beat" you're referencing the general "style" of a certain piece of music, then that's fairly subjective. For many years as a new believer I found my old rock musical tastes to be a stumbling block. As I matured in the faith I was able to reincorporate some, but not all, to my listening. However, if by"beat" you're meaning a repeating pulse that underlies a musical pattern, then that is more objective and I fail to see how a musical pulse could be construed as "demonic". The same reasoning (on either side of the aisle) could be utilized to indict melody, harmony, steps/half-steps, syncopation etc., and away we go. I had a devout Pentecostal friend who told me I shouldn't listen to Tchaikovsky because "The guy was a homosexual"; I asked him if listening to Shostakovich would convert me to Stalinism, and he had no answer. Bottom line is this: if it's causing you or another to stumble, then avoid it like the plague, but be gracious when critiquing another person's musical choices.

This reminds of the two worst arguments against rock music I've ever heard (both from Bill Gothard seminars):

(1) "Rock music is bad because it is set to the beat of sex." --- Shouldn't they be telling us not to listen to Barry White instead?

(2) "Music that fades out rather than ending abruptly teaches evolution." --- I could make a better argument that music that ends abruptly rather than fading out teaches that everything stops at physical death and there is no eternity.

 

[pridekils]

Hi, I've heard that the beat used in rock music (called the rock beat or offbeat) was used by pagans in their demon worship. Since then I've felt uncomfortable listening to anything (rock or not) that has this beat.

I feel like this idea is not biblical though because (1) "everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving" (1 Tim 4:4). Based on this I would say there's nothing inherently sinful about any particular melody or beat or whatever. And (2) if pagans used that beat, how do we know if they didn't use other popular beats or melodies? How can we ever be sure that we aren't doing something that "the pagans did"?

What are your thoughts on the subject? Is the rock beat "learning the way of the heathen"?

I love Christian metal. I grew up listening to Petra and Whitecross and moved on to other hard bands such as Mortification, Tourniquet, etc. I understand music to be neutral (can you distinguish between a holy C note and an evil C note?) and what matters is the lyrics that fill out the musical style. There's Christian metal out there that's more "godly" than secular country music because of what they are singing. However, I would not bring this style of music into corporate worship as I believe Psalms and hymns are what is prescribed with the congregational voice being the primary instrument (the people need to be heard singing corporately).
Ironically, I was listening to Tourniquet before I was a believer and they have a song called "Sola Christus" which is essentially the 5 points of Calvinism! It's amazing to think how God was exposing me to Reformed doctrine before I was even a Christian.

Here's a couple of articles I've found interesting in regards to this:
1. https://derekzrishmawy.com/2012/09/18/becoming-the-archetypes-i-am-the-doctrine-of-god-death-metal/
2. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/metal-lyrics-psalms-lament/

 

[alexandermsmith]

I'm not "tempted" at all by the lyrics. If anything, I'm reminded of the danger. I'm more tempted simply by driving down the highway and seeing billboards than by any lyrics I may listen to. But, as I said before, this probably WOULD be a temptation for a younger person or someone without a well-developed Christian worldview, and I would encourage them to be much more picky about their music.

"Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents...Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1 Corinthians 10:9,12

 

[arapahoepark]

I love Christian metal. I grew up listening to Petra and Whitecross and moved on to other hard bands such as Mortification, Tourniquet, etc. I understand music to be neutral (can you distinguish between a holy C note and an evil C note?) and what matters is the lyrics that fill out the musical style. There's Christian metal out there that's more "godly" than secular country music because of what they are singing. However, I would not bring this style of music into corporate worship as I believe Psalms and hymns are what is prescribed with the congregational voice being the primary instrument (the people need to be heard singing corporately).
Ironically, I was listening to Tourniquet before I was a believer and they have a song called "Sola Christus" which is essentially the 5 points of Calvinism! It's amazing to think how God was exposing me to Reformed doctrine before I was even a Christian.

Here's a couple of articles I've found interesting in regards to this:
1. https://derekzrishmawy.com/2012/09/18/becoming-the-archetypes-i-am-the-doctrine-of-god-death-metal/
2. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/metal-lyrics-psalms-lament/

Agree wholeheartedly!
Now I have some more bands to look up!

 

[MountainPilgrim]

Agree wholeheartedly!
Now I have some more bands to look up!

Check out Phinehas and War of Ages, as well. Some of my favorites (my favorite albums are "The Fire Itself" and "Supreme Chaos" respectively).

 

[Deleted member 13126]

In case anyone has any interest in Metropolitan Tabernacle's take on music, they have published an article which discusses a musician's perspective on contemporary Christian music here.

 

[Clark-Tillian]

This reminds of the two worst arguments against rock music I've ever heard (both from Bill Gothard seminars):

(1) "Rock music is bad because it is set to the beat of sex." --- Shouldn't they be telling us not to listen to Barry White instead?

(2) "Music that fades out rather than ending abruptly teaches evolution." --- I could make a better argument that music that ends abruptly rather than fading out teaches that everything stops at physical death and there is no eternity.

Gothard is more than a little bizarre in his assertions. I recall someone telling me of a woman, married to an Gothard devotee, who, during her husband's funeral riposte (or the wake) was found either crying or laughing (I cannot recall which). When asked she said she was happy he was gone because he hadn't said a kind, husbandly word to her in decades, per Gothard's aberrant view of male headship. If true it's horrifying; if apocryphal it's still makes the point.