Is There a Need/Desire for Reformed Philosophers?

Is There a Need/Desire for Reformed Philosophy?


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Ulster Fry

Puritan Board Freshman
Greetings,

I am curious as to what the Reformed community thinks about having its own philosophers working in the field of academic philosophy. One of the defences I give to folks asking why I am studying philosopher is that the Church needs its philosophers. More specifically, I believe the Reformed church would greatly benefit from more working in this area and doing serious academic philosophy.

A common criticism (often justified) is that Christian philosophers are typically unorthodox in their theology and that they bring more confusion than clarity. However, I think this criticism could easily be applied to modern theology in general. Surely the solution to this is to have more orthodox thinkers involved, rather than withdrawing ourselves?

What do you think? Are philosophers more trouble than they're worth? Should we be pushing those wanting to study philosophy into theology/pastoral ministry instead?

An additional note - I'm well aware the elephant in the room here is the state of the modern woke universities. That may be a factor in why people vote one way or the other. Again, my opinion is that having solders on the frontline fighting against naturalistic philosophy or postmodernism is better than not (while we still can). Though I would strongly caution against anyone studying philosophy without a solid grasp of Reformed theology and its history.
 
You would need to have something as your bread and butter work to pay the bills, eg being a professor teaching non philosophy stuff
 
You would need to have something as your bread and butter work to pay the bills, eg being a professor teaching non philosophy stuff
Let me clarify - I'm talking about Reformed Christians working professionally as philosophers in an academic context. This could be in a philosophy or divinity department, at a Christian or secular university. They would be doing research or teaching in philosophy. Many (most?) secular universities teach philosophy of religion, for example.
 
Let me clarify - I'm talking about Reformed Christians working professionally as philosophers in an academic context. This could be in a philosophy or divinity department, at a Christian or secular university. They would be doing research or teaching in philosophy. Many (most?) secular universities teach philosophy of religion, for example.
Then you have to navigate the competitiveness of job opportunities in academic today plus whether a reformed view would narrow your chances even more. depends also if you can get that key early scholarship for a PhD at the early stage
 
Then you have to navigate the competitiveness of job opportunities in academic today plus whether a reformed view would narrow your chances even more. depends also if you can get that key early scholarship for a PhD at the early stage
Sorry - let me clarify again. This isn't a question about me or individual Reformed Christians wanting to study philosophy professionally. This is a question for the Reformed community - do people within the Reformed churches see a need for Reformed Christians doing professional work in philosophy? Would this be of benefit to the church? As an example, would it be helpful to have a Reformed philosopher who can operate in a professional capacity in philosophy of mind? That has huge implications for free will, human responsibility, God's sovereignty, and so forth. I'm unsure whether a theologian has the sort of time and resources to tackle this as well as a philosopher could.

Another example is to point to Christian philosophers today, such as William Lane Craig, who is doing both professional philosophical work and popular apologetics. He is neither Reformed nor orthodox on various Christian doctrines (though I greatly appreciate his work). He is very influential and is continually engaged with professional philosophers and scientists arguing for the coherency of Christianity. But wouldn't it be better to see Reformed figures doing this?

I hope this adds some clarity as to what I am asking.
 
Sorry - let me clarify again. This isn't a question about me or individual Reformed Christians wanting to study philosophy professionally. This is a question for the Reformed community - do people within the Reformed churches see a need for Reformed Christians doing professional work in philosophy? Would this be of benefit to the church? As an example, would it be helpful to have a Reformed philosopher who can operate in a professional capacity in philosophy of mind? That has huge implications for free will, human responsibility, God's sovereignty, and so forth. I'm unsure whether a theologian has the sort of time and resources to tackle this as well as a philosopher could.

Another example is to point to Christian philosophers today, such as William Lane Craig, who is doing both professional philosophical work and popular apologetics. He is neither Reformed nor orthodox on various Christian doctrines (though I greatly appreciate his work). He is very influential and is continually engaged with professional philosophers and scientists arguing for the coherency of Christianity. But wouldn't it be better to see Reformed figures doing this?

I hope this adds some clarity as to what I am asking.
Apologies, I approached this from your own individual perspective of studying.

but yes, if you follow figures like Frame and Poythress
 
Apologies, I approached this from your own individual perspective of studying.

but yes, if you follow figures like Frame and Poythress
No problem, it gave me an opportunity to add some further points of clarity. And obviously it does have implications for someone like me who is interested in studying philosophy professionally. Ultimately, Christians committed to studying philosophy want to be (or should want to be) of benefit to the church. What I want to know is whether Reformed churches are interested or should have more of an interest in having its own distinctly Reformed philosophers.

Since you've mentioned Frame, I'm curious whether people want to add that further caveat - they would only want Reformed philosophers within that Van Tilian school of thought (which I don't personally subscribe to).
 
Philosophy is useful for theology when it addresses things like logical categories, fallacies, valid and invalid syllogisms, etc. But those things are not the focus of modern day continental philosophy, which, since Descartes, has grown increasingly sophistic. So I voted no. You will have to forgive me for ignoring the analytic philosophers.
 
Philosophy used to be basic to study for the ministry, as I understand. Surely its foundational nature to thinking gave rise to our reformation forefathers, I think of the Westminster divines in particular. I do suspect that at least the basics of philosophy, its bent shaped and derived of course from the Scripture, are valuable to every Christian but most especially our pastors. The Bible itself will teach us godly philosophy if we pay close attention.

But as far as “the Reformed community having its own philosophers working in the field of academic philosophy”; I don’t think the visible Reformed church is in any state to support this, as being done in godliness and in fear and trembling, in these days. We are so declined from true reformation and godliness. Philosophy only has a use in the church if it lends to greater piety and advances Spirit-empowered preaching and teaching. I don’t think the church could depend on it coming from the hands of academics.
 
Philosophy used to be basic to study for the ministry, as I understand. Surely its foundational nature to thinking gave rise to our reformation forefathers, I think of the Westminster divines in particular. I do suspect that at least the basics of philosophy, its bent shaped and derived of course from the Scripture, are valuable to every Christian but most especially our pastors. The Bible itself will teach us godly philosophy if we pay close attention.

But as far as “the Reformed community having its own philosophers working in the field of academic philosophy”; I don’t think the visible Reformed church is in any state to support this, as being done in godliness and in fear and trembling, in these days. We are so declined from true reformation and godliness. Philosophy only has a use in the church if it lends to greater piety and advances Spirit-empowered preaching and teaching. I don’t think the church could depend on it coming from the hands of academics.
On your first point - contemporary philosophy is very different from the classical or scholastic philosophy that would have been of use in ministry back then. My own experience of philosophical education, which is largely in the analytic tradition, has been extremely biased towards naturalism. I don't think that would be of any use to ministers outside of some sort of apologetic function. Though it does teach one to think in a precise, rigorous manner, and the difficulty of trying to present a coherent Christian worldview to an audience very sceptical of any strongly metaphysical claims. I think we need philosophers who provide such arguments for ministers to use.

As for the second point, I would argue that the early church, operating from less than ideal circumstances, had many apologists/philosophers writing against heresy of all kinds and arguing for the truth claims of Christianity. Additionally, one of the reasons I chose to study philosophy was to deal with the philosophical arguments made by confessing Christian philosophers who deny the orthodox doctrines of God. Most of the opponents of said Christian philosophers are Roman Catholic philosophers. Paul Helm is one of the few Reformed classical theists, and I think there ought to be more.

On that point, there is an atheist whose PhD research is on the doctrine of divine simplicity and the disagreement between the Christian philosophers. He thinks that those denying the orthodox view of divine simplicity (Plantinga, Craig, etc) are, philosophically, making the better arguments. Reasons like these are why I believe we ought to have more Reformed orthodox philosophers, or at the very least theologians who can engage with the arguments.
 
On your first point - contemporary philosophy is very different from the classical or scholastic philosophy that would have been of use in ministry back then. My own experience of philosophical education, which is largely in the analytic tradition, has been extremely biased towards naturalism. I don't think that would be of any use to ministers outside of some sort of apologetic function. Though it does teach one to think in a precise, rigorous manner, and the difficulty of trying to present a coherent Christian worldview to an audience very sceptical of any strongly metaphysical claims. I think we need philosophers who provide such arguments for ministers to use.

As for the second point, I would argue that the early church, operating from less than ideal circumstances, had many apologists/philosophers writing against heresy of all kinds and arguing for the truth claims of Christianity. Additionally, one of the reasons I chose to study philosophy was to deal with the philosophical arguments made by confessing Christian philosophers who deny the orthodox doctrines of God. Most of the opponents of said Christian philosophers are Roman Catholic philosophers. Paul Helm is one of the few Reformed classical theists, and I think there ought to be more.

On that point, there is an atheist whose PhD research is on the doctrine of divine simplicity and the disagreement between the Christian philosophers. He thinks that those denying the orthodox view of divine simplicity (Plantinga, Craig, etc) are, philosophically, making the better arguments. Reasons like these are why I believe we ought to have more Reformed orthodox philosophers, or at the very least theologians who can engage with the arguments.
Yes, I can't hang intellectually very far in the conversation, I'm afraid, and am sure I miss many points about your question and its ramifications for the church. Standing by what I said (I think, unless I misspoke in what I was trying to say), I'll look forward to others' input.
 
I’ll say more when I get back to a computer. There is absolutely a need for philosophical rigour. I’m just not sure the university offers the best employment. A degree, Howe, can still open doors.
 
I dont know if this is of any regard to you. I was going over some names in Calamys "Non-Conformist Memorial" today, linking some works up in Zotero, and came across the work of a Non-Conformist Puritan by the name of Theophilus Gale. I think this is a section of a greater work entitled "The Court of the Gentiles" but it is a section entitled "Reformed Philosophy." Maybe it can help you for future research into this topic. God Bless.
 
I dont know if this is of any regard to you. I was going over some names in Calamys "Non-Conformist Memorial" today, linking some works up in Zotero, and came across the work of a Non-Conformist Puritan by the name of Theophilus Gale. I think this is a section of a greater work entitled "The Court of the Gentiles" but it is a section entitled "Reformed Philosophy." Maybe it can help you for future research into this topic. God Bless.
Here is an interesting paper on Gale and Reformed Platonism: https://www.midamerica.edu/uploads/files/pdf/journal/08parkjournal2013.pdf
 
Here is an interesting paper on Gale and Reformed Platonism: https://www.midamerica.edu/uploads/files/pdf/journal/08parkjournal2013.pdf
Thank you for the heads up. Will try to read tonight when I get off of work. This may just be another gem EEBO-TCP has done the hard work of typing out for us; and it will be even more beneficial to us all once Project Puritas gets ahold of it to clean it up. I wont have time to stop and read it for a while, since I am in the middle of a project, but this is added to the list and the entire set is in EEBO-TCP; so, Lord willing, it will get published sometime soon, at least electronically. Thank you for the link to the paper. God Bless.
 
I've voted yes. I wish there were more Reformed Christians in my own academic field (which wasn't philosophy, but overlapped), and across all the academic disciplines generally. I am uncomfortable about what seems to be a suspicion in some quarters about education and expertise, and an inclination to retreat from the public arena in case some wokeism might be encountered. Young Christians who have intellectual gifts should be encouraged to develop their gifts for the good of their discipline, society and the church.
 
I've voted yes. I wish there were more Reformed Christians in my own academic field (which wasn't philosophy, but overlapped), and across all the academic disciplines generally. I am uncomfortable about what seems to be a suspicion in some quarters about education and expertise, and an inclination to retreat from the public arena in case some wokeism might be encountered. Young Christians who have intellectual gifts should be encouraged to develop their gifts for the good of their discipline, society and the church.
This would probably be my own view, though I would still caution those interested in studying at a secular university, especially in a subject like philosophy which tackles the very foundation of our knowledge and beliefs, that they need to be bold and robust as they’ll be under constant attack. My own attempt to deal with this is to go on the attack against naturalism, but it certainly isn’t easy.
 
This would probably be my own view, though I would still caution those interested in studying at a secular university, especially in a subject like philosophy which tackles the very foundation of our knowledge and beliefs, that they need to be bold and robust as they’ll be under constant attack. My own attempt to deal with this is to go on the attack against naturalism, but it certainly isn’t easy.
Yes, although up to a point you can't really know what you're being robust against until you understand it? The humility of being willing to learn (from people who are simultaneously more unscriptural and more clever than you) must go hand in hand with that boldness.
 
Philosophy is an ancient discipline. It has been blessed by Christianity. The obvious answer to the OP is yes! There should be more Reformed philosophers.

One can caveat the answer to oblivion with hazards along the way including finding gainful employment. I will say the internet gives many amateurs and philosophy-adjacent professionals (historians, theologians) opportunities to play at home with philosophy and contribute meaningfully.
 
I've voted yes. I wish there were more Reformed Christians in my own academic field (which wasn't philosophy, but overlapped), and across all the academic disciplines generally. I am uncomfortable about what seems to be a suspicion in some quarters about education and expertise, and an inclination to retreat from the public arena in case some wokeism might be encountered. Young Christians who have intellectual gifts should be encouraged to develop their gifts for the good of their discipline, society and the church.
Could it also be a measure between time invested/and time potentially lost? What I mean is, I could study for 10 years and get a Ph.D in Social Work. Yet, at any given time the law could mandate that I either call transsexuals by their figment gender, or lose licensure. This is a very real threat among many career choices; education, healthcare, social sciences, etc. I think many youth want to go head on into these fields to expand the kingdom; but many also do not want to be bad stewards of precious time when the writing is on the wall; thinking they will be the singular effort that is going to change it. The cost of education is enormous; and already only about 3 out of 10 people work in jobs related to their majors. I don't think they are retreating, but investing wisely. Many of these people will not receive tuition assistance or church support like pastoral candidates going to seminary, say, if they wanted to go into Social Work, Education, Engineering, Tech, or Entrepreneurship, etc. .

At what point is society so woke, and the possibility of having to compromise our faith so sure, that we simply find something else that will not tempt us to shy from our stance to save our careers or investments, or hang our heads low and mutter "well, my kids have to eat," as we get in the car every day convicted? I believe we should applaud them for having the foresight to avoid compromise instead of the potential delusion of conquering a country God has seemed to presently passed judgment on.
 
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I think many believers see philosophers as people who take difficult ideas and learn to present them in ways that turn them utterly incomprehensible to the average person. But if you can be a philosopher who presents difficult ideas in a way that makes them understandable, believers would appreciate that.

And certainly, it's good to have believers who are experts in all the classical academic fields, philosophy included.
 
I voted "no" after googling around, finding that Hillsdale College has a Roman Catholic
and reading

1 Corinthians 1:20​

“Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?”

Lord, give us more sound theologians.
 
Yes, although up to a point you can't really know what you're being robust against until you understand it? The humility of being willing to learn (from people who are simultaneously more unscriptural and more clever than you) must go hand in hand with that boldness.
I agree, but then isn’t this partly why we want more Reformed people already in these fields? It’s less intimidating to know there are already solid answers provided by people who have dealt with these problems already. I find it frustrating that I have to turn to mostly non-Reformed sources constantly for these answers as there aren’t many options.
 
I voted "no" after googling around, finding that Hillsdale College has a Roman Catholic
and reading

1 Corinthians 1:20​

“Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?”

Lord, give us more sound theologians.
I’m sorry, but I don’t understand this logic at all and it seems unnecessarily sectarian. You voted no because there is a college that hires a Roman Catholic philosopher? Is it a college that claims to be Reformed or something?

And why wouldn’t that lead you to want more Reformed philosophers who could fill that gap, if you really don’t want Roman Catholics involved? Part of my annoyance is that it mostly is Roman Catholics and those outside my own tradition doing this sort of work.
 
I think we must note that there are not many of us. If we take the Bible (and Reformation) seriously, there probably isn't a field, from cosmetology to cosmology, where we wouldn't want more Reformed individuals.
 
Could it also be a measure between time invested/and time potentially lost? What I mean is, I could study for 10 years and get a Ph.D in Social Work. Yet, at any given time the law could mandate that I either call transsexuals by their figment gender, or lose licensure. This is a very real threat among many career choices; education, healthcare, social sciences, etc. I think many youth want to go head on into these fields to expand the kingdom; but many also do not want to be bad stewards of precious time when the writing is on the wall; thinking they will be the singular effort that is going to change it. The cost of education is enormous; and already only about 3 out of 10 people work in jobs related to their majors. I don't think they are retreating, but investing wisely. Many of these people will not receive tuition assistance or church support like pastoral candidates going to seminary, say, if they wanted to go into Social Work, Education, Engineering, Tech, or Entrepreneurship, etc. .

At what point is society so woke, and the possibility of having to compromise our faith so sure, that we simply find something else that will not tempt us to shy from our stance to save our careers or investments, or hang our heads low and mutter "well, my kids have to eat," as we get in the car every day convicted? I believe we should applaud them for having the foresight to avoid compromise instead of the potential delusion of conquering a country God has seemed to presently passed judgment on.
Wokeism is today's bogeyman. When I was applying for university it was probably something like "evolution". There isn't going to be a time when there isn't something unscriptural to be encountered in society or education or academia. Not everyone is cut out to study for a profession, and not everyone is cut out to do a PhD, but when people have the relevant gifts and opportunities, they should use these. The risk of compromising our faith is not at all restricted to those whose jobs require a professional qualification.
 
Whenever people tell me ‘we don’t need no philosophy. Just give us the bahble’, I ask them what does ‘substance’ mean, since God has one of those. The results are often amusing.
 
Whenever people tell me ‘we don’t need no philosophy. Just give us the bahble’, I ask them what does ‘substance’ mean, since God has one of those. The results are often amusing.
The endeavor to define a single term is philosophical.
 
Whenever people tell me ‘we don’t need no philosophy. Just give us the bahble’, I ask them what does ‘substance’ mean, since God has one of those. The results are often amusing.
You certainly don't find much substance in their response, I'm sure.

It is amusing, but it's also discouraging, and I think that's why I agree with a lot that Cath is saying about the dangers of an anti-intellectual attitude in the church. It's a shame when people who are going into academia, which is often hostile to the Christian faith, don't receive support from their own. I can't see how withdrawing ourselves is the right option.

I'm also curious to hear your own proposal, as you seem to believe that universities are not the place for this to happen nowadays. Where and how should this sort of work be done if not through the universities? More Christian colleges? There's a lot less of those here in the UK.
 
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