Protestant pastor on the job hunt? Good luck in this market - USATODAY.com
I read other statistics that say pastors leave the ministry in droves.
I read other statistics that say pastors leave the ministry in droves.
Is there still a "pastor glut"?
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Barna Research: https://www.barna.org/barna-update/...-churches-doubles-in-past-decade#.U_5g7ksTO0w
Female pastors on the rise + Church attendance in a free fall = No pastor jobs
Female pastors on the rise + Church attendance in a free fall = No pastor jobs
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
. Recent law school graduates that are going to end up rich from practicing law are about as common as recent seminary graduates that are going to become megachurch millionaires. And the percentage that will make enough to service student loan debt covering educational expenses is probably roughly the same for both groups.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
whirlingmerc
Puritan Board Sophomore
I suspect you will see more pastors with part time jobs in small churches in the future.
In CA, the cost of living is so high that churches with less than an average of 100 attendees will probably not be able to support a full-time pastor. The problem is, bivocational pastors do not generally have the time to spend on those things that help grow a church to 100. It is a vicious circle.
Rom,
Where are the open pulpits in the RPCNA?
I am aware of Selma and Northminster. Thanks.
JonathanHunt
Puritan Board Senior
Do these vacant pulpits in confessional presbyterian churches come with liveable salary and expenses? Or are some vacant because churches are not really able to support younger men with families properly?
Bill The Baptist
Puritan Board Graduate
This is very true. The problem with bi-vocational positions in my experience is that they are bi-vocational in salary only. The church still expects the pastor to prepare three sermons/studies per week as well all the other aspects of pastoring a church. Men who take these positions get quickly burnt out working a secular job on top of the full time responsibility of pastoring a church. There would less vacancies at these small churches if the elders and deacons understood that a pastor who also works a secular job needs help with the preaching, teaching, and shepherding rather than just expecting him to do it all on top of a second job.
Andres
Puritan Board Doctor
Bryan, TX has an opening.
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
No intent to slight members of the legal profession. My second son graduated from law school a few years ago and is a partner in a firm. He watched several of his classmates take associate positions in large firms, only to be laid off after a year. I'm painfully aware of the economic pressures on young lawyers.
My point was to compare pastors (national average salary $40,000) with those in professions that have HISTORICALLY paid higher salaries than this. During my time vetting young ordinands (500 or so over 31 years), it was distressing to see more and more of them graduate with huge debts ($100k in one case). One of my younger friends posted on Facebook today that school debts of $130,000 have FINALLY been paid off (in the seminary grad's 40s)!
For the 200+ megachurch pastors in America the last reliable statistics (2010) indicated an average salary of $147,000. That was four years ago and it is doubtless higher today. The pastor of one of my kids just got terminated; he was making $175,000 + benefits. Few on the PB will ever need to deal with those numbers. They will probably fall closer to the national average.
Rom
Puritan Board Junior
John, forgot to get back to you on the list. Andrew is correct - Bryan has a vacancy. Here is the list that was given at Synod:
Covenant RPC - Aurora, OH
Providence - Pittsburgh, PA
Trinity - Beltsville, MD
Coldenham-Newburgh, NY
First Grand Rapids, MI
Hetherton, MI
Northminster RPC, Suwanee, GA
Selma, AL
Sparta RPC, IL
Westminster RPC, Prairie View, IL
Bryan Mission, TX
Quinter RPC, KS
Wichita RPC, KS
Christian Heritage, Endwell, NY
Hudson-St. Lazare, Canada
Rochester RPC, NY
In addition, I believe there are church planting efforts who need church planters. The work in Las Vegas comes to mind. I am not sure what the status of that is. Our very own Pastor Eshelman might be able to give more insight there.
Covenant RPC - Aurora, OH
Providence - Pittsburgh, PA
Trinity - Beltsville, MD
Coldenham-Newburgh, NY
First Grand Rapids, MI
Hetherton, MI
Northminster RPC, Suwanee, GA
Selma, AL
Sparta RPC, IL
Westminster RPC, Prairie View, IL
Bryan Mission, TX
Quinter RPC, KS
Wichita RPC, KS
Christian Heritage, Endwell, NY
Hudson-St. Lazare, Canada
Rochester RPC, NY
In addition, I believe there are church planting efforts who need church planters. The work in Las Vegas comes to mind. I am not sure what the status of that is. Our very own Pastor Eshelman might be able to give more insight there.
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
There are a lot of ministers looking for positions. But not all ministers are created equal. It has been my observation and experience that ministers who are highly qualified (with "highly qualified" refering to multiple factors) continue to stand out from the crowd and are able to find positions.
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
Both are true. There are more ministers than positions AND pastors leave the ministry in droves. How can that be?
To use a bathroom analogy: It's like my bathtub. We have incredible water pressure and (amazingly) the faucet is able to put water into the tub FASTER than our drain will let it out. So even though water is leaving the tub, the tub is still slowly filling. It's a spectacle to behold - and, if I might add, stands as a good example that German engineering isn't necessarily all that its cracked up to be.
David Pope
Puritan Board Freshman
Celibacy.
One Little Nail
Puritan Board Sophomore
The fact that Protestants can marry is a better job perk, also I've seen a write up of an old Donahue show, 1984? I believe, where it was stated that approx 50% of the RC Priesthood were Sodomites, these days you don't need to hide in a roman prayer closet so with all this societal acceptance they choose not to or have no need to join the "Holy" Priesthood.
Rom
Puritan Board Junior
Based upon this list, and that there is a pastor glut in other Protestant denominations - Andrew and I are willing to offer an intensive 4 week brainwashing, uhh, "re-education" course on the Mediatorial Kingship of Christ, The Regulative Principle of Worship, Infant Baptism, and Presbyterian Form of Church Government.
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
Both the OPC and PCA have relatively few openings (for sr. or solo positions, at least: those that involve considerable preaching).
There are many factors here. The severe economic downturn that began in 2008 has prompted a number of men who would have otherwise retired to remain in the ministry due to their financial situations. The downturn has also impacted many of the churches, which have not been able to offer adequate compensation, particularly smaller ones and those in economically depressed areas.
Men have continued to train for the ministry, but many are unable to find calls because churches want experienced men and these younger men have no way of gaining such if no one is willing to give it to them. I understand, from one viewpoint, why churches want experienced men, but I also believe that it is unwise for churches, as a number of them do, arbitrarily to insist on such. A congregation does itself and candidates a disservice when it, from the start, requires so many years of experience. There are some very fine young men that this simply rules out, young men who may be as qualified as, and in some cases more qualified than, older men.
It may well be for many of the smaller churches in our Reformed and Presbyterian denominations that bi-vocational ministry will be required. We are living in difficult times with respect to all of this and nothing on the horizon, it seems to me, promises anything better anytime soon.
Peace,
Alan
There are many factors here. The severe economic downturn that began in 2008 has prompted a number of men who would have otherwise retired to remain in the ministry due to their financial situations. The downturn has also impacted many of the churches, which have not been able to offer adequate compensation, particularly smaller ones and those in economically depressed areas.
Men have continued to train for the ministry, but many are unable to find calls because churches want experienced men and these younger men have no way of gaining such if no one is willing to give it to them. I understand, from one viewpoint, why churches want experienced men, but I also believe that it is unwise for churches, as a number of them do, arbitrarily to insist on such. A congregation does itself and candidates a disservice when it, from the start, requires so many years of experience. There are some very fine young men that this simply rules out, young men who may be as qualified as, and in some cases more qualified than, older men.
It may well be for many of the smaller churches in our Reformed and Presbyterian denominations that bi-vocational ministry will be required. We are living in difficult times with respect to all of this and nothing on the horizon, it seems to me, promises anything better anytime soon.
Peace,
Alan
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
You mean the old "church's want a 30-year old man with 30 years experience, 5 kids, and a wife who will be the co-pastor" line eh Dr. Strange.
Bill The Baptist
Puritan Board Graduate
You mean the old "church's want a 30-year old man with 30 years experience, 5 kids, and a wife who will be the co-pastor" line eh Dr. Strange.
Don't forget the Ph.D
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
Something like that Ben G.
This is something that gets me going. When a church adds to the biblical requirements (understanding different denominations understand such differently: our Covenanter brethren, for instance, would see a principled Psalms-only in worship position as part of bibilcal requirements)--things like "must be married, and such a particular age, with x years of experience"--this hurts the overall church. I believe that when particular congregations rule out men from the start ("the unexperienced in the pastorate need not apply"), that not only hurts the pool of candidates, it hurts that church. Churches sometimes give a pass to a man who is eminently qualified to serve them and instead call an experienced man whose fit for that church is dubious at best.
Churches should look at the man, whether a licentiate (and many churches will say, unjustifiably in my view, no licentiates need apply, even though presbyteries have said that such are eligible for call), a man with little experience, or a man of years. Experience is important but should be one factor among them all in assessing a man. Some men have much experience and and a careful examination of their experience reveals that they've learned little. I agree that if you have two men of roughly equal natural and spiritual gifts, more experience (that has been sanctified to the candidate) is preferable. But it's overrated in the abstract and churches never do themselves a favor by ruling out whole categories of men from the start.
And, more importantly, there's no biblical warrant for doing so and when the church places unbiblical criteria on men ("you must be married," "you must have children," "you must have pastored for at least five years") everyone suffers because we are not following God's way as set forth in His Word but our own imagined wisdom. It means that we will have as our pastors some that we should not have and that others that we should have may be excluded.
Peace,
Alan
This is something that gets me going. When a church adds to the biblical requirements (understanding different denominations understand such differently: our Covenanter brethren, for instance, would see a principled Psalms-only in worship position as part of bibilcal requirements)--things like "must be married, and such a particular age, with x years of experience"--this hurts the overall church. I believe that when particular congregations rule out men from the start ("the unexperienced in the pastorate need not apply"), that not only hurts the pool of candidates, it hurts that church. Churches sometimes give a pass to a man who is eminently qualified to serve them and instead call an experienced man whose fit for that church is dubious at best.
Churches should look at the man, whether a licentiate (and many churches will say, unjustifiably in my view, no licentiates need apply, even though presbyteries have said that such are eligible for call), a man with little experience, or a man of years. Experience is important but should be one factor among them all in assessing a man. Some men have much experience and and a careful examination of their experience reveals that they've learned little. I agree that if you have two men of roughly equal natural and spiritual gifts, more experience (that has been sanctified to the candidate) is preferable. But it's overrated in the abstract and churches never do themselves a favor by ruling out whole categories of men from the start.
And, more importantly, there's no biblical warrant for doing so and when the church places unbiblical criteria on men ("you must be married," "you must have children," "you must have pastored for at least five years") everyone suffers because we are not following God's way as set forth in His Word but our own imagined wisdom. It means that we will have as our pastors some that we should not have and that others that we should have may be excluded.
Peace,
Alan
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