Its coming together slowly

[Anton Bruckner]

You guys know that I was having problems reconciling the secular timeline with the Biblical timeline, of which the secular timeline has such dates as 5000 b.c, whereas the Biblical Timeline goes up to around 4000 b.c.

The problems get compounded with me because of all the civilizations being uncovered and the trying to fit the civilization into a chronological time period.

Well here is my musings.
1. The study of History from a Biblical perspective must be divided into two categories to avoid confusion. These two categories are PreNoahic Civilizations and PostNoahic civilizations. One mistake I was making was assuming that all civilizations being uncovered were PostNoahic.

I was looking as the population projections which took into accounted the long years of the PreNoahic people, and these population projections came out moderately to 9 billion people.

Now if the max was 9 billion then it follows that many civilizations were developed concurrently. We have Cain leaving and building a city and Lamech. Therefore assumptions of stone age, bronze age etc must be thrown out of the window. The technology in each city will vary according to their pioneering spirit. While computers are a good thing in America, it is probably a magic machinery in Somalia. That does not mean that we should assume that there was a computer age and a non computer age, hence somalia not being in the computer age thus relegating it to the 1800's. This is the problem I was running into.

2. If a civilization seems very ancient, it is highly possible that it was from the PreNoahic time, and the carbon dating of such civilizations take into account the major disruption of the flood. i.e time was never constant. Someone can age quickly and reflect an older age, while they are young, and someone cal reflect a younger age eventhough they are old.

[Edited on 4-13-2005 by Slippery]

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Finding the roots of modern humans
DNA study may reveal who we are, where we came from
By Marsha Walton
CNN
Wednesday, April 13

Spencer Wells meets with residents of Pate Island, off Kenya's coast, to explain the project.

(CNN) -- "Genographic" is not showing up in many dictionaries yet.
But two global institutions, IBM and the National Geographic
Society, hope the idea it conveys becomes well known in every corner
of the planet.

The Genographic Project, launching Wednesday, is a five-year genetic
anthropology study designed to chart the migratory history of
humans, and help fill in the blanks of how and where people moved to
populate the planet.

Population geneticist Dr. Spencer Wells, an explorer-in-residence at
the National Geographic Society, is director of the project.

"Genetics, I think, resoundingly has answered the question of where
we ultimately came from, we came out of Africa. And we came out
quite recently, within the last 50 or 60 thousand years," Wells said.

"But the question of how we migrated around the planet, how we
populated the world, in effect, is still an open one."

Wells has spent the past 15 years studying population migration,
gathering about 10,000 samples from around the world.

But he says people today move faster and farther from their roots
than ever before, complicating the job of scientists and in
effect "blurring the family tree."

"And the goal is to sample DNA from people all over the world, both
indigenous populations and the general public," Wells said.

"We want everybody to have a chance to participate in this, because
it is really the story of all of us, that's what we are trying to
figure out."

IBM is involved in processing the massive amounts of data that will
be generated when scientists around he world begin gathering DNA
cheek swabs and blood samples.

Dr. Ajay Royyuru, senior manager for the Computational Biology
Center at IBM's Watson Research Center in New York, explains the
pairing of "genome" and "geography."

"The genome we all carry is the best record. It actually carries the
information of each of our ancestors. And as we uncover the markers
in the genome, we are able to tell, who your ancestors were and
where they possibly come from," he said.

Critical to the study will be DNA samples from indigenous people,
distinctive and unique populations who have long inhabited certain
geographic areas.

Royyuru says it is important that scientists from the beginning
approach these people, many in remote areas, with care.

"The participation of individuals, in any exercise, requires that
you respect who they are, what they are, and the reason why you want
them to participate. And you make sure that what you give them back
is of value to them, which is exactly what we are trying to do with
the indigenous populations and the public at large," Royyuru said.

The study is also counting on people around the world who have a
keen interest in their own ancestors to take part.

Millions of people are using the Internet to connect with relatives
around the world, using a variety of genealogy programs.

The Genographic Project could take that a step farther, adding DNA
details to the available information.

Those interested will have to make a serious investment, $99.95 plus
shipping and handling, for a "participation kit." It includes a DVD
and brochures detailing the five-year global study, plus a cheek
swab kit that individuals send back to the study with their own DNA.

Project officials say these tests will be stored anonymously, but
individuals will be able to track details about themselves using a
number assigned to each kit.


The DNA samples will be gathered from cheek swabs collected from
participants around the world.
"You will be able to see, for example, right off the bat if you are
in a particular genotypic group, and where is the population of that
particular genotypic group in the world today, and what we think are
the ways in which this population ended up in this location in the
world. And as this data grows, we will be able to make this map, and
this journey and this detail richer in content," Royyuru said.

Wells says the project has assembled a "dream team" of scientists,
from Moscow to Johannesburg to Adelaide to Paris and Beirut.

Besides the population experts, scientists from many other
disciplines will be adding context to the DNA information. One
researcher will focus on ancient DNA, studying skeletons hundreds,
even thousands of years old.

"So what we can answer [as geneticists] is questions about biology,
about biological ancestry. But to make any sense of that
historically we have to contextualize it -- the archaeology, the
linguistic pattern, even the climatology," Wells said.

"So it really is a synthetic effort to understand our common past." http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/04/12/genographic/index.html

take for the example the above.

We know that there are two major migrational events from the Bible.
1. After Adam got kicked out of the Garden, humans multiplied and spread over the face of the earth.

2. After the flood, there was a second scattering and migration.

3. These guys will be thrown into a state of confusion since they will be chronicling multiple overlapping migrational patterns, and they will try erroneously to constrain it into a chronology.

The problem that will eventually arise that may seem to conflict with religion from this article is that they will find 2 distinct sets of human genetics.
1. The PreNoahic genes (Which came from a multitude of sources, Cain, Seth, Lamech, Jared etc. I bet scientists will say that these genes likely came from some other type of humans who has minimal relationship or no relationship with modern humans)

2. The PostNoahic genes, of which all came directly from Noah. (This will be deemed the ancestors of Modern Man.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Dr Spencer Wells, Harvard evolutionary geneticist:
There is more genetic diversity in any single African village than in the whole world outside Africa, which proves that the world's entire non-African population must be descended from a relatively small sub-set of Africans. There isn't as much non African diversity because there wasn't much genetic material to begin with. But Africans are descended from a far larger population, providing greater genetic diversity. - South Africa Sunday Times.

Take for example the above. Using the table of Nations, we see that Ham's descendents populated Africa and early Palestine, and were initially the most populous and strong of nations. Africans are multidiverse from the Ethiopians, Ancient Libyans, Yoruba and Asante tribes of West Coast. Coupling this together with the fact that the Canaanites and the Jebusites who were descendents of Ham, lived in the Middleeast shows how diverse this family group of Ham were.

What is interesting of the above assumptions from the article, is that they article believes that all descended from one source (Africans: quite similar to all descended from Noah), and Non Africans (Biblical, NonHamitic) were from a small subset of Africans (the original in terms of Noah).

But what will explain the above more, is the extent of the flood and the confounding of the languages.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

the concurrence of civilizations. If the world truly looked like this, then this can explain the various civilization being developed around the world, and the lack of necessitity in boat building, hence the mocking of Noah.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

this seems to explain quite well the carvings on the Mayan structures with people riding Dinosaurs.

[Edited on 4-13-2005 by Slippery]

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Conclusion, if Pangea existed, the flood was both global and local.

 

[sastark]

Keon,

Thanks for posting all that.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

no problem sastark.

check out these dinosaur figurines found in Mexico. It is highly likely these these figurines were made by the PreNoahic civilizations, and not the PostNoahic civilizaton.

[Edited on 4-14-2005 by Slippery]

 

[Anton Bruckner]

I think it is unthinkable that the Mayans were sculpting mythical creatures that somehow coincide in appearance to dinosaur.

[Edited on 4-14-2005 by Slippery]

 

[Bladestunner316]

Your getting me excited with all this stuff

I love devling into ancient history. You know off the top of my head I rember somewhere(not here) of discussion to there ebing ancinet astronauts.

Now obviouselly we dont know for sure unless otherwise proven. But my theory on technological advancment in the antedilluvian time period is this.

1. Men live longer and were able to invent and test things longer. Ie.. modern man only gets around 30-40 years max on technological adavancment. Cause he has to spend time first hand learning basics, history of a certain technology, and then update himself on the current progress, plus first hand experience in that field. In Noahs time beofre the flood men lived for hundreds of years therfore expanding the technological advancement from 30-40 years to 300-600 years thats alot of time.

2. Though not directly spoken of but alluded too in canon, but in Jewish tradition fallen angels cam down and taugh men things he 'wasnt' supposed to know like "them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. " (enoch ch7 vs2-3 slavonic text)

3. Also the weather was drastically different in that time period compared with the period afterwards.

Just my thoughts....

Blade

 

[Bladestunner316]

http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html

underwater pyrimiads of japan.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

I like the following from the website

These discoveries show quite clearly that, during the last Ice Age, civilisation flourished on what were then the coastal areas of the many parts of the world which, despite glaciations further north, still enjoyed a very pleasant, temperate climate. These ancient settlements are proving to have been much more advanced urban cities than current models of prehistory are prepared to acknowledge, but their existence is just as real as the fact that they were obviously flooded during the abrupt end of the last Ice Age, at the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary.

I will go out on a limb and say that this settlement was obviously a PreNoahic civilization.

I would even go so far as saying that the Flood, had such catastrophic effects that it made things appear older than they actually are.

Once again, using the population estimates that there were approximately 9 billion people at the time of the flood, it is obvious and reasonable to see that pyramids in Japan, pyramids in egypt, pyramids in mexico, olmec structures in America etc could have been constructed.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Good thinking guys. It's always good to question the presuppositions of "modern" scientists. With the Bible in hand, we can make alot of sense of the same data they stumble over and it all points back to the glory of God, both in the fossilized testimony of His judgment, and the loving testimonies of grace in our history. How he confounds the wise....

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Puritansailor, its amazing when God opens your eyes, using the very thing that deceives unbelievers into more unbelief.

Now tackling a method for interpreting the fossil record I think we have to assume.

1. That animals began getting extinct soon after the fall due to the population growth of humans. It is only natural that the animals humans hunted and killed the most, necessarily must become extinct the quickest.

2. In addition to forced extinction by humans, there is the natural extinction which comes about from encorachment of habitats.

3. Then there is the obliteration that came as a result of the flood.

All the above three will be reflected in the fossil record, this is why the evolutionists are at lost for explaining it outright, since the fossil record is not uniform.

The next set of fossil records will be due to

1. Post Noahic extinction from the PostNoahic increase in animal population at the hands of humans.

2. Natural extinction due to the inability of certain animals to adapt to the new weather patterns of the world, plus encroachment.

When evaluating the fossil records all of the above must be taken into account, so as to reflect it accurately, since it is a testimony to Creation in relation to the fall of man and the flood.


Anyway, what is scary about this is the great possibility of there being Americans before the native Americans hehehehehe. Man I can't wait until the Lord comes so I can get a clearer picture.



The above explains why dinosaurs could have been prevalent during the PreNoahic world and not the PostNoahic world. Heck only Job is mentioned as knowing anything remotely looking like a Dinosaur, and it is not by chance all human civilizations have mythologies with dinosaurs being prevalent, but without having actual living dinosaurs.

Chances are the Dinosaurs seemed to be the animal getting all the attention in being killed. Heck, one dinosaur looks like it could feed a family for 5 years. I think these were the first of the large animals to get moved off the shelf, since they had the largest surplus of meat (bigger than the mammoth), as well as being potentially more threatening.

So the logic goes, let us kill that which threaten us the most, and feeds us the longest.

[Edited on 4-14-2005 by Slippery]

 

[Puritan Sailor]

I would also add to your reasons for extinction the massive global climate changes post-Flood. Some animals couldn't hack it in the new world.

 

[Bladestunner316]

to both

Also about antartica the hub of the ancient world? Just might be.

 

[turmeric]

Loch Nessie is a dinosaur!?

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Dinosaur Eggs Offer Clues on Reproduction

Thu Apr 14, 8:13 PM ET Science - AP


By SIOBHAN McDONOUGH, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The rare discovery of eggs inside a dinosaur has given scientists new clues about the reproductive biology of the creatures and more support for the theory that birds came from dinosaurs.


Canadian Press Photo






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The pair of shelled eggs is the first of its kind found inside a dinosaur, said researchers who reported the discovery in Friday's issue of the journal Science.


Scientists found the dinosaur produced eggs in some ways like a crocodile and in other ways like a bird. Crocodiles and similar primitive reptiles have two ovaries enabling them to lay a clutch of eggs. Birds have a single ovary and can only lay one egg at a time.


The dinosaur's egg-producing capability lay somewhere in between, suggesting a link with the modern bird, researchers said. It could produce more than one egg, but only one from each ovary at a time.


The theory that birds came from dinosaurs has been supported by many researchers, said Tamaki Sato of the Canadian Museum of Nature in Ottawa. But this latest research helps advance it, she added, calling it "strong evidence."


There have been previous findings of round objects around dinosaur skeletons and scientists have suspected they might be eggs but because they did not have shells, there wasn't certainty, Sato said.


"You have egg shells with this one," she said of the specimen at the National Museum of Natural Science in Taiwan that was excavated from China. "This is the first time for sure."


The scientists studied a dinosaur from a group of dinosaurs called oviraptorosaurians. This type of dinosaur "” probably 10 feet to 13 feet long "” is a subgroup of the theropods, thought to have been the ancestors to modern birds.


The remains of the shelled eggs looked like pineapple-sized potatoes. The similar size of the eggs suggests the creature's two oviducts each produced a single, shelled egg at the same time, the report said.


Matt Carrano, curator of dinosaurs at the National Museum of Natural History in Washington, said the findings provide greater insights into the biology of the dinosaur and the evolution of birds.


"It's a window into a particular stage of evolution," he said. "This particular dinosaur has characteristics that are birdlike but retains reptillian-like features."


"You have oviducts but they're only doing one egg at time. Its biology is half way there between a bird and reptile."


Carrano also said it tells something about birds.


"The evolution of one egg at a time happened very early, before birds could fly, and then the evolution of only one oviduct happened later," he said.


"That might be related to the origin of flight," he said, explaining that maybe birds wanted to lighten their body and so developed one oviduct.

Ok, here these guys have found a dinosaur egg and they are forcing it into the evolutionary model. now talk about being scientific. These guys assume that because a Dinosaur lays eggs similar to that of a crocodile and birds, then it necessitates that Dinosaurs evolved from crocodile like creatures and into birds.

These guys totally ruled out the most reasonable option that the Dinosaur reproductive cycle was the reproductive cycle that was best suited for the dinosaur without any association to evolution into birds.

[Edited on 4-15-2005 by Slippery]

 

[Bladestunner316]

 

[Bladestunner316]

http://www.mokelembembe.com/

slippery, ever here of this guy?

Blade

 

[clevipearce]

Nice artwork on that guys site. Reminds me a lot of "The Land Before Time."

 

[Bladestunner316]

 

[Anton Bruckner]

The Japan Times
May 12, 2001
DNA evidence backs up 'out-of-Africa' human origin theory
WASHINGTON (Reuters) Genetic research unveiled Thursday provides compelling support for the theory that anatomically modern humans rose out of Africa in the past 100,000 years and swept aside populations of prehistoric man, with no interbreeding.
A team of Chinese and American geneticists obtained blood samples from more than 12,000 men from across East Asia and examined characteristic DNA sequences called markers on the Y chromosome (the male chromosome).

The Y chromosome is considered one of the most powerful molecular tools for tracing human evolutionary history because it remains unchanged over eons when passed from father to son.

The researchers found that every one of the men could trace his ancestry to forefathers who lived in Africa over the past 35,000 to 89,000 years. They also found absolutely no genetic evidence that modern people, Homo sapiens, mated with archaic humans, Homo erectus, that already lived in Asia, having migrated from Africa about 1 million years ago.

The findings, appearing in the journal Science, appeared to confirm the so-called out-of-Africa theory that modern people originated in Africa about 100,000 years ago and then migrated outward, replacing Homo erectus around the globe.

"Our work not only provided the evidence that supports the out-of-Africa theory, but also showed that such a replacement is complete," human population geneticist Li Jin of Fudan University in Shanghai and the University of Texas in Houston, who led the study, said.

Li added that the absence of any genetic signature from archaic humans in the huge sample of men studied meant there was no support for the idea that Homo sapiens mated and produced babies with Homo erectus.

Asked about any evidence of interbreeding, Li said: "Zilch. None. Nada."

Some dissident scientists have expressed the view that people living today descended from several indigenous archaic human populations in the Old World, such as the Neanderthals who resided in Europe or so-called Java man or Peking man in Asia. This theory is called multiregionalism.

But the evidence is mounting against this view. Several studies have shown that modern human mitochondrial DNA, passed down by the mother, is of African origin. And when scientists sequenced the DNA from the mitochondria, tiny structures within a cell but outside the nucleus that contain genes, of a Neanderthal four years ago, they found it was vastly different from that seen in people today.

"The genetic evidence implies a recent common origin of our species. The Y chromosome really makes that argument bulletproof," Stanford University molecular biologist Peter Underhill, a study coauthor, said in an interview.

Li said the researchers devised a simple way to make the out-of-Africa theory a testable hypothesis. He said the team wanted to answer the question of whether there was any trace of Y chromosomes of non-African origin in East Asia, where Homo erectus and Homo sapiens fossils have been found in abundance.

The researchers screened 12,127 genetic samples from men in 163 populations from different regions in Asia - in such places as Iran, China, New Guinea and Siberia - for three specific Y chromosome mutations that are derived from a single earlier mutation seen in African populations.

All of them carried one of the three mutations, suggesting that archaic humans did not contribute to the origin of modern man. "All these people trace their roots back to a common ancestor who lived in Africa maybe 100,000 years ago," Underhill said.




Hope I am not reading too much into this but I think I mentioned the 2 distinct groups of humans. One directly from Noah and his 3 sons, and the others directly from Adam and all his children.

 

[Bladestunner316]

yeah but even though adam and eve are our original parents noah's sons(and wives) are our parents.

So their are three distinct groups descendants from Shem, Ham, and Japeth.

which are we from I dont know

Blade