James White/Harold Camping

Discussion in 'Defending the Faith' started by Iconoclast, Jul 25, 2009.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Puritan Board Junior

    Iron Sharpens Iron

    James White will debate Harold Camping July 28/29 on the Iron sharpens Iron Program.
     
  2. rbcbob

    rbcbob Puritan Board Graduate

    I thought I saw a notice that Camping left the planet some years back. :think:
     
  3. Herald

    Herald Administrator Staff Member

    *sigh* I used to listen to Harold Camping on WFME in Northern New Jersey. I enjoyed Family Radio back in the 80's. Of course, times have changed. To say that Mr. Camping has wandered off the reservation is to be kind. I fear that James White will have to take great pains not to embarrass Mr. Camping. I'm not sure the latter is firing on all cylinders these days.
     
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Puritan Board Junior

    He planned to in 1994, but like the Millerites before him it did not happen.:rolleyes:

    -----Added 7/25/2009 at 12:38:24 EST-----

    Yes Bill I also would listen to conference echoes then open forum. Ironically Camping now disagrees with himself if you listen he opposes his own long held views. I do not think he is doing well mentally.:confused:
     
  5. VictorBravo

    VictorBravo Administrator Staff Member

    Moved thread. For some reason it was in FAQ and Rules.
     
  6. Southern Twang

    Southern Twang Puritan Board Freshman

    As my good friend refers to him "our hometown heretic". (Camping lives in the Bay Area)
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Puritan Board Junior

    Thank you Vic, the some reason was my computer inefficency:lol:
     
  8. Blue Tick

    Blue Tick Puritan Board Graduate

    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Camping"]Harold Camping[/ame]
     
  9. William Price

    William Price Puritan Board Freshman

    This should be extremely one-sided. White should, with compassion of course, blow Camping right out of his dingy.
     
  10. dudley

    dudley Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    I look forward to the debate and recommend his blog

    :gpl:I just read an excellent article by James White on his Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog. It is titled "Mariolatry Comparable to Indian Idolatry?" as an ex Roman catholic and convert to the Reformed faith and now a Presbyterian I was very interested to read the article.

    I will be looking forward to hear the debate. In the meantime if you have not read or visited his blog on Apologetics I recommend it.

    He quotes the following Perhaps then you will hear what Tertullian ("the Father of Latin Christianity") had to say.

    He explained that it was the mark of a Christian man not to wear a crown:
    crowning would have been most suitable if it were worthy of God. But if these things were figures of us (for we are temples of God, and altars, and lights, and sacred vessels), this too they in figure set forth, that the people of God ought not to be crowned. The reality must always correspond with the image. If, perhaps, you object that Christ Himself was crowned, to that you will get the brief reply: Be you too crowned, as He was; you have full permission. Yet even that crown of insolent ungodliness was not of any decree of the Jewish people. It was a device of the Roman soldiers, taken from the practice of the world—a practice which the people of God never allowed either on the occasion of public rejoicing or to gratify innate luxury: so they returned from the Babylonish captivity with timbrels, and flutes, and psalteries, more suitably than with crowns; and after eating and drinking, uncrowned, they rose up to play. Neither would the account of the rejoicing nor the exposure of the luxury have been silent touching the honour or dishonour of the crown. Thus too Isaiah, as he says, "With timbrels, and psalteries, and flutes they drink wine," [Isaiah 5:12] would have added "with crowns," if this practice had ever had place in the things of God.- Tertullian, On the Crown, Chapter 10

    In grace,
    Dudley

    -----Added 7/26/2009 at 05:59:05 EST-----

    :detective:From what I have read about Camping's theology it is said by some to be based on Calvinism. :calvin:However I do not consider him a Reformed Protestant any longer.:oops: He departed from Calvinist Doctrine, and teaches relative free will of humanity, and that humans are not totally depraved. However, he still from what I have read subscribes to the idea that salvation is unmerited, cannot be achieved by good works or prayer, and is a pure act of God's grace. I guess on that base he is still at least Protestant.

    He also no longer believes in a place called Hell, instead Camping teaches annihilationism; that life will end and existence will cease for the unsaved soul. On that basis he obviously also departs from the Westminster standards.:westminster:

    In faith and grace,
    Dudley
     
  11. baron

    baron Puritan Board Graduate

    I do not know a lot about Mr. Camping, but heard him say this evening on the radio that the Rapture will be May 21, 2011. I guess it's nice to know the date so we can be prepaired.
     
  12. rbcbob

    rbcbob Puritan Board Graduate

    As the wise Southern theologian Gomer Pyle once said, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice shame on me".
     
  13. KSon

    KSon Puritan Board Junior

    Pyle's Systematic (the 18 episode first-season Andy Griffith DVD) is one of my "go-to" resources when the chips are down.
     
  14. D. Paul

    D. Paul Puritan Board Sophomore

    Won't this be fun!!!! I can't wait.:banana:
     
  15. matthew11v25

    matthew11v25 Puritan Board Sophomore

    James should do well.

    Camping is pretty strong willed and not afraid to interrupt anyone if he does not agree...so it should be a lively debate.

    My only concern is if the conversation gets bogged down in dates and times, and other gymnastics.
     
  16. Herald

    Herald Administrator Staff Member

    I thought that was Mr. Scott on Star Trek; the "Trouble with Tribbles" episode.
     
  17. rbcbob

    rbcbob Puritan Board Graduate

    Actually Scotty was in agreement with Camping, believing as he did that the earth ended in 2011.
     
  18. CalvinandHodges

    CalvinandHodges Puritan Board Junior

    I hope Dr. White cleans Camping's clock!

    -Rob
     
  19. TeachingTulip

    TeachingTulip Puritan Board Sophomore

    The entire Harold Camping saga grieves me greatly.

    During the past 35 years or so, myself and our family have known Mr. Camping, often been blessed by his biblical knowledge and Reformed teachings, and benefited from the many fine Christian teachings that has been made available on Family Radio. It was a good work for a long time.

    However, we have had to witness Mr. Camping's slide into numerology (idolatry?) which in large part has produced his hapless prophecies, and now during this present time, this rapid, but still public, decline.

    I take no pleasure in what has happened to him, his family, his church, his life's work, his associates, etc. It is one of the greatest tragedies I have ever seen a Christian man experience.

    Therefore, I take no pleasure in his being ridiculed and being made the subject of less than charitable thoughts.

    No, I am not one of his followers or supporters. Before the Lord, my husband and I distanced ourselves from Mr. Camping many years ago, so my comments are not meant as a defense of the bad teachings being put forth.

    But we do not wish him ill, but rather, are praying that God will have mercy upon his soul and pull him back from this cliff he has jumped off.

    It is my opinion that we all should be praying for wisdom and discernment for James White, with the hope that he will be used by God to penetrate Camping's thinking and that a spiritual miracle might still occur in the heart of a once respected saint. Might God bring good out of this debate. May those of us who observe the event, listen in love, and desire good results; not a further shaming of Mr. Camping.

    For after all, he claims the name of Jesus Christ. Despite what we make of his wrong teachings, we must pray for Camping's (spiritual/mental) health and for repentance . . .not just for a spectacle.

    My :2cents:
     
  20. rbcbob

    rbcbob Puritan Board Graduate

    The Scriptures do not shy away from exposing false teachers who tear down the Church of Jesus Christ and lead astray His blood bought sheep. That their folly is exposed to ridicule is nothing compared to the judgment to come.

    2 Timothy 3:6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

    See also 2 Peter chapter 2.
     
  21. Gesetveemet

    Gesetveemet Puritan Board Freshman

    Ridiculed by who? Exposing false teachers is one thing but a child of God should not make Camping an object of laughter, insults, or deliberate belittling. The previous post said we should rather pray that God will have mercy upon his soul and pull him back from this cliff he has jumped off.

    Have a good day,
    William
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2009
  22. rbcbob

    rbcbob Puritan Board Graduate

    1 Kings 18:25 Now Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one bull for yourselves and prepare it first, for you are many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire under it." 26 So they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even till noon, saying, "O Baal, hear us!" But there was no voice; no one answered. Then they leaped about the altar which they had made. 27 And so it was, at noon, that Elijah mocked them and said, "Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is meditating, or he is busy, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is sleeping and must be awakened." 28 So they cried aloud, and cut themselves, as was their custom, with knives and lances, until the blood gushed out on them. 29 And when midday was past, they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice. But there was no voice; no one answered, no one paid attention.

    We can and should pray for the repentance of those who are undermining the Church. But exposing their madness is not thereby excluded. These two undertakings are not mutually exclusive. No doubt there were some Baal advocates whose sensitivities were bruised by this taunt of the prophet of the LORD.

    Have you never read the Reformers? They were not so delicate as the political correct sensitivity police of our society today.
     
  23. steven-nemes

    steven-nemes Puritan Board Sophomore

    The apostles also calling unregenerates irrational beasts and so on also says something of the sort of rhetoric that might be permissible in Christian debate...
     
  24. ReformedChapin

    ReformedChapin Puritan Board Freshman

    I don't even understand why people would take Camping seriously. When people make sensationalistic claims as this they should be ignored. I'm surprised White didn't just laugh this of. How many people are being decieved by baseless claims like these?
     
  25. brianeschen

    brianeschen Puritan Board Junior

    :agree:Perhaps one of my most used resources as well.
     
  26. Gesetveemet

    Gesetveemet Puritan Board Freshman

    OK Bob, if that's the way you FEEL about Harold Camping fine. Nevertheless he was quite sound at one time and I believe there is hope for his never dying soul. The Lord has a way of bringing back them that are truly His.

    -----Added 7/27/2009 at 09:09:37 EST-----

    Steven,

    It may be permissible for an apostle but it's a fruit that I would rather not have. That is why I deleted my post. With that said, may the Lord bless all that you do that pleases Him.
     
  27. rbcbob

    rbcbob Puritan Board Graduate

    I agree that the Lord can save him and I would rejoice over it. For now though he is doing considerable harm to our Lord's Church (even teaching that the Lord has given up on His Church) and must be vigorously opposed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2009
  28. Edward

    Edward Puritan Board Doctor

    I appreciate your charitable nature - a virtue in which I can be found lacking.

    However, you should be open to the idea that a public humiliation could be used to draw this man back into the fold of orthodoxy.
     
  29. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable

    I agree. I still listen occasionally to the Open Forum, no doubt out of sinful pride, attempting to see if I would answer the caller's questions as Camping does. The man's knowledge of Scripture is impressive, and I am sorrowed by how much he has slipped into allegorical interpretations of Scripture without warrant.

    I don't know what led him to his current positions, but I pray that he will be led back to proper biblical teachings. My hope is that James White will avoid his usual polemics in the upcoming "debate" and will demonstrate a charitable posture.

    AMR
     
  30. jason d

    jason d Puritan Board Freshman

    You can get the audio here from the debate that happened today.

    This is what James White posted on it:

     
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