Jephthah

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No, I don't think so. After all, what is clearly stated is that Jephthah performed his vow: I haven't seen any denials of that point. The question relates to the manner in which that vow was performed: and again, an unclean, unsacrificeable animal could have emerged.

But let me return to the point of charity: Jephthah I take to be our brother in Christ. As such, even in our interpretations of Scripture, we owe him charity. It is not charity to think that he behaved as though Jehovah were Molech, pleased with the stench of burning human flesh.

-----Added 2/2/2009 at 09:50:50 EST-----

Now, God being the one that the promise was made to could have very well release Jephthah from his promise and prevented him from sacrificing his daughter, just like he prevented Abraham from making his sacrifice. But we don't see that God stopped the sacrifice. And scripture infers that Jephthah made good on his oath to God. Also scripture doesn't indicate anywhere that Jephthah sinned by killing his daughter. Therefore we can's say that he sinned by fulfilling his oath.

I think there is a shorter way to absolve Jephthah from sin: pay attention to details in the text (lamenting virginity, for instance); pay attention to theological context; and Jephthah fulfilled his vow, but he did it in a way appropriate to the victim God chose.

Even when God did give a command for Abraham to slay Isaac, God prevented the execution of that command.
 
God takes Vows very seriously. I think the lesson to be learned here is that we should be very careful about what we promise, and realize that God will hold us to it.

That's not just wrong, it's really, really wrong, as any major confession will tell you. Not that one needs the confessions for this one.



Ok, Tim. I'll bite. Educate me please.

Which confessions are what scripture say that God does not take vows seriously?

Which confession are what scripture says or indicates that we shouldn't be careful about what we promise?

What confession or scripture says or indicates that God will not hold us to our word?
 
I think it reveals what he had in mind. He made an indefinite vow, but was only thinking in terms of livestock: but God challenged him that giving up a possession is not necessarily deep dedication. When Jephthah said, "You can have whatever you want", God in effect said, "I want your heart".


I'm thinking focusing on the Vow itself is the most import lesson here to be learned. How many times have you seen in movies, on TV, or in real life where some is in a tight spot, makes a promise to God, if God would only help them out, then they will do something in return. And when God "comes through" they may or may not complete their Vow. Most of the time they don't.

God takes Vows very seriously. I think the lesson to be learned here is that we should be very careful about what we promise, and realize that God will hold us to it.

Jephthah was very careless with his vow, just like most of us are today. God through His sovereignty showed Jephthah that he was careless, and Jephthah knew he had to make good on his promise. Scripture provided no way out for him. If he didn't complete his promise, then he will sinned against God. And if he did complete the he would loose his daughter.

As to human sacrifices, almost everyone I know say this is a terrible thing. But wait! Didn't God tell Abraham to sacrifice his only son? And wasn't Christ sacrificed for us all on a cross? I'm not trying to say the Christian should make human sacrifices, but there are rare instances where a human sacrifice was required, that being Christs. And there was a time where the wiliness to make a human sacrifice was evidence of faith.

With all that in mind, we see that Jephthah made a foolish promise to his God. God reveals to Jephthah is foolish promise made to him. And then we see Jephthah fulfilling his promise. Didn't Jephthah wiliness to carry through with his promise similar to Abraham's? After all, didn't Abraham reckoned that God could raise his son up from the dead? Couldn't it be possible that Jephthah thought the same thing? Anyhow we all know that God will indeed raise her up in the last days.

Now, God being the one that the promise was made to could have very well release Jephthah from his promise and prevented him from sacrificing his daughter, just like he prevented Abraham from making his sacrifice. But we don't see that God stopped the sacrifice. And scripture infers that Jephthah made good on his oath to God. Also scripture doesn't indicate anywhere that Jephthah sinned by killing his daughter. Therefore we can's say that he sinned by fulfilling his oath.

Thus, the lesson to be learned from this passage I believe is that God wants us to fulfill our promises, and to take them seriously.

Did you promise your spouse that you will love, honor and cherish them to death? The you better do it!

Did you promise to pay your mortgage? Then do it!

Now days people are always looking for some escape from fulfilling their promises. One thing came be said about Jephthah, and that is, he made good on his promise to God, even when he really, really, really, with tears in his eye, didn't want to do it. And do you think if he could have thought of a loop hole in his promise, don't you think he would have tried to exercise it? The fact is, there was no way out for him. He had to do it.


(BTW, I hope I don't receive to many negative replies. I know by taking this position in the past that I've been labeled as some sort of heretic, but I believe my view is the correct one. Though I know it is probably the most politically incorrect view. )

So if I vow to God tomorrow to:

(1) Say prayers to Allah
(2) Build and worship an idol
(3) Blaspheme all three persons of the Trinity
(4) Actively and vigorously break the Sabbath and do everything I can to make others do so.
(5) Tell my parents I want them to burn and actively slander their name in the community.
(6) Kill and beat up as many people as I want to do.
(7) Hire a prostitute and try to seduce as many friends as I can.
(8) Joyride a few cars, steal my roommate's stuff, and generally be a thief.
(9) Lie profusely and viciously, both about myself and those I wish to slander.
(10) Covet and desire every good thing everyone I know has.

What I am hearing alleged here is that if I make this vow, unless God himself stays my hand, I sin unless I fulfill every aspect of my vow. Your position leaves only 2 options:

(1) That fulfilling the vow is not sinful, and the sinful nature of the acts promised are still sinful, so either fulfilling or not fulfilling the vow is sin.

(2) That fulfilling the vow makes previously sinful acts no longer sinful because committing them is now your obligation before God.

Neither position seems to me at all consistent with God's holiness and hatred of sin. Moreover, if both fulfilling and not fulfilling the vow is sin, then there's no door for repentance whatsover.

Am I missing something here?

God takes Vows very seriously. I think the lesson to be learned here is that we should be very careful about what we promise, and realize that God will hold us to it.

That's not just wrong, it's really, really wrong, as any major confession will tell you. Not that one needs the confessions for this one.

:ditto:
 
No, I don't think so. After all, what is clearly stated is that Jephthah performed his vow: I haven't seen any denials of that point. The question relates to the manner in which that vow was performed: and again, an unclean, unsacrificeable animal could have emerged.

But let me return to the point of charity: Jephthah I take to be our brother in Christ. As such, even in our interpretations of Scripture, we owe him charity. It is not charity to think that he behaved as though Jehovah were Molech, pleased with the stench of burning human flesh.

-----Added 2/2/2009 at 09:50:50 EST-----

Now, God being the one that the promise was made to could have very well release Jephthah from his promise and prevented him from sacrificing his daughter, just like he prevented Abraham from making his sacrifice. But we don't see that God stopped the sacrifice. And scripture infers that Jephthah made good on his oath to God. Also scripture doesn't indicate anywhere that Jephthah sinned by killing his daughter. Therefore we can's say that he sinned by fulfilling his oath.

I think there is a shorter way to absolve Jephthah from sin: pay attention to details in the text (lamenting virginity, for instance); pay attention to theological context; and Jephthah fulfilled his vow, but he did it in a way appropriate to the victim God chose.

Even when God did give a command for Abraham to slay Isaac, God prevented the execution of that command.



I don't quite understand. I'm not trying to absolve ( to set free from an obligation or the consequences of guilt) Jephthah from sin. For other than him not being careful with the making of his vow, I don't see any sin on his part.
 
You said

God takes Vows very seriously. I think the lesson to be learned here is that we should be very careful about what we promise, and realize that God will hold us to it.

Then you said

Ok, Tim. I'll bite. Educate me please.

What confession or scripture says or indicates that God will not hold us to our word?

And I timed myself, and in less than two minutes after typing WCF oaths vows in at Google I found: (yes, I knew it was there, but still)

7. No man may vow to do any thing forbidden in the Word of God, or what would hinder any duty therein commanded, or which is not in his own power, and for the performance whereof he hath no promise of ability from God. In which respects, popish monastical vows of perpetual single life, professed poverty, and regular obedience, are so far from being degrees of higher perfection, that they are superstitious and sinful snares, in which no Christian may entangle himself.

Friend, it was NO VOW. It was an ILLEGAL VOW, and wasn't binding. Like Oedipus Rex, he WASN'T MARRIED since the VOW WAS ILLEGAL AND THEREFORE NO VOW.
 
Folks,

I really don't think Jephthah's "oath" - whatever he meant or whatever he did with his daughter - is in view in Hebrews 11, anymore than David's adultery is in view, or Abraham's cowardice in Egypt... I think that Hebrews 11 is referencing him as someone who had faith that he would conquer his enemies because of the Lord.
 
Folks,

I really don't think Jephthah's "oath" - whatever he meant or whatever he did with his daughter - is in view in Hebrews 11, anymore than David's adultery is in view, or Abraham's cowardice in Egypt... I think that Hebrews 11 is referencing him as someone who had faith that he would conquer his enemies because of the Lord.
True, and even if he did sacrifice his daughter via an unlawful vow, horrible a sin though it is, he could be forgiven of it.
 
I think it reveals what he had in mind. He made an indefinite vow, but was only thinking in terms of livestock: but God challenged him that giving up a possession is not necessarily deep dedication. When Jephthah said, "You can have whatever you want", God in effect said, "I want your heart".


I'm thinking focusing on the Vow itself is the most import lesson here to be learned. How many times have you seen in movies, on TV, or in real life where some is in a tight spot, makes a promise to God, if God would only help them out, then they will do something in return. And when God "comes through" they may or may not complete their Vow. Most of the time they don't.

God takes Vows very seriously. I think the lesson to be learned here is that we should be very careful about what we promise, and realize that God will hold us to it.

Jephthah was very careless with his vow, just like most of us are today. God through His sovereignty showed Jephthah that he was careless, and Jephthah knew he had to make good on his promise. Scripture provided no way out for him. If he didn't complete his promise, then he will sinned against God. And if he did complete the he would loose his daughter.

As to human sacrifices, almost everyone I know say this is a terrible thing. But wait! Didn't God tell Abraham to sacrifice his only son? And wasn't Christ sacrificed for us all on a cross? I'm not trying to say the Christian should make human sacrifices, but there are rare instances where a human sacrifice was required, that being Christs. And there was a time where the wiliness to make a human sacrifice was evidence of faith.

With all that in mind, we see that Jephthah made a foolish promise to his God. God reveals to Jephthah is foolish promise made to him. And then we see Jephthah fulfilling his promise. Didn't Jephthah wiliness to carry through with his promise similar to Abraham's? After all, didn't Abraham reckoned that God could raise his son up from the dead? Couldn't it be possible that Jephthah thought the same thing? Anyhow we all know that God will indeed raise her up in the last days.

Now, God being the one that the promise was made to could have very well release Jephthah from his promise and prevented him from sacrificing his daughter, just like he prevented Abraham from making his sacrifice. But we don't see that God stopped the sacrifice. And scripture infers that Jephthah made good on his oath to God. Also scripture doesn't indicate anywhere that Jephthah sinned by killing his daughter. Therefore we can's say that he sinned by fulfilling his oath.

Thus, the lesson to be learned from this passage I believe is that God wants us to fulfill our promises, and to take them seriously.

Did you promise your spouse that you will love, honor and cherish them to death? The you better do it!

Did you promise to pay your mortgage? Then do it!

Now days people are always looking for some escape from fulfilling their promises. One thing came be said about Jephthah, and that is, he made good on his promise to God, even when he really, really, really, with tears in his eye, didn't want to do it. And do you think if he could have thought of a loop hole in his promise, don't you think he would have tried to exercise it? The fact is, there was no way out for him. He had to do it.


(BTW, I hope I don't receive to many negative replies. I know by taking this position in the past that I've been labeled as some sort of heretic, but I believe my view is the correct one. Though I know it is probably the most politically incorrect view. )

So if I vow to God tomorrow to:

(1) Say prayers to Allah
(2) Build and worship an idol
(3) Blaspheme all three persons of the Trinity
(4) Actively and vigorously break the Sabbath and do everything I can to make others do so.
(5) Tell my parents I want them to burn and actively slander their name in the community.
(6) Kill and beat up as many people as I want to do.
(7) Hire a prostitute and try to seduce as many friends as I can.
(8) Joyride a few cars, steal my roommate's stuff, and generally be a thief.
(9) Lie profusely and viciously, both about myself and those I wish to slander.
(10) Covet and desire every good thing everyone I know has.

What I am hearing alleged here is that if I make this vow, unless God himself stays my hand, I sin unless I fulfill every aspect of my vow. Your position leaves only 2 options:

(1) That fulfilling the vow is not sinful, and the sinful nature of the acts promised are still sinful, so either fulfilling or not fulfilling the vow is sin.

(2) That fulfilling the vow makes previously sinful acts no longer sinful because committing them is now your obligation before God.

Neither position seems to me at all consistent with God's holiness and hatred of sin. Moreover, if both fulfilling and not fulfilling the vow is sin, then there's no door for repentance whatsover.

Am I missing something here?

God takes Vows very seriously. I think the lesson to be learned here is that we should be very careful about what we promise, and realize that God will hold us to it.

That's not just wrong, it's really, really wrong, as any major confession will tell you. Not that one needs the confessions for this one.

:ditto:



I think you are taking the position to the extreme.

What I am saying that if you are going to make a promise, you are to take in consideration of what you are promising.

Therefore, before taking any oath or promise, one is to examine that promise very carefully, realizing that you will be held to your word and judged accordingly. I would advise anyone in general that they should not make promises if they can at all avoid it. I believe that would be in accordance with the King's commands, for didn't the King say:

" Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. "

So when I read the story of Jephthah and his daughter, I think back on the King's words and say how much better are his ways than mine. And many times before I sign a contract of some sort or make a promise of any kind, I think on Jephthah daughter.

Isn't this what the King would have us to do?

Christians are to be characterized as a people that keep their oaths. Christ is very clear on that fact.


As far as a door to repentance. I think back about the women who was convicted of murder in Texas. And then in prison she became a christian. Just because she repented of her sin, didn't mean that she wasn't to suffer the consequences of her sin. Yes, God could have been merciful to her, and he could have been merciful to Jephthah in this matter. But he chose for the women to be executed for her sins, and like wise he chose for Jephthah daughter to die. After all, isn't it He that decrees when we live, where we live, when we die, and how we die?
 
Mac!
How is it NOT a sin to make a burnt offering of a person?

There are NO examples of this as "OK" in the Bible, and the one example we DO have, 2Ki.3:27, Israel recognized as unbelievable abomination!

Isaac? 1) God gave a specific COMMAND to do it, 2) God intended that it should NOT be fulfilled, and ended his trial of Abraham when Abraham achieved what God DID intend.

Not even people who think Jeptha DID kill her think he did the RIGHT thing!
 
I'm thinking focusing on the Vow itself is the most import lesson here to be learned. How many times have you seen in movies, on TV, or in real life where some is in a tight spot, makes a promise to God, if God would only help them out, then they will do something in return. And when God "comes through" they may or may not complete their Vow. Most of the time they don't.

God takes Vows very seriously. I think the lesson to be learned here is that we should be very careful about what we promise, and realize that God will hold us to it.

Jephthah was very careless with his vow, just like most of us are today. God through His sovereignty showed Jephthah that he was careless, and Jephthah knew he had to make good on his promise. Scripture provided no way out for him. If he didn't complete his promise, then he will sinned against God. And if he did complete the he would loose his daughter.

As to human sacrifices, almost everyone I know say this is a terrible thing. But wait! Didn't God tell Abraham to sacrifice his only son? And wasn't Christ sacrificed for us all on a cross? I'm not trying to say the Christian should make human sacrifices, but there are rare instances where a human sacrifice was required, that being Christs. And there was a time where the wiliness to make a human sacrifice was evidence of faith.

With all that in mind, we see that Jephthah made a foolish promise to his God. God reveals to Jephthah is foolish promise made to him. And then we see Jephthah fulfilling his promise. Didn't Jephthah wiliness to carry through with his promise similar to Abraham's? After all, didn't Abraham reckoned that God could raise his son up from the dead? Couldn't it be possible that Jephthah thought the same thing? Anyhow we all know that God will indeed raise her up in the last days.

Now, God being the one that the promise was made to could have very well release Jephthah from his promise and prevented him from sacrificing his daughter, just like he prevented Abraham from making his sacrifice. But we don't see that God stopped the sacrifice. And scripture infers that Jephthah made good on his oath to God. Also scripture doesn't indicate anywhere that Jephthah sinned by killing his daughter. Therefore we can's say that he sinned by fulfilling his oath.

Thus, the lesson to be learned from this passage I believe is that God wants us to fulfill our promises, and to take them seriously.

Did you promise your spouse that you will love, honor and cherish them to death? The you better do it!

Did you promise to pay your mortgage? Then do it!

Now days people are always looking for some escape from fulfilling their promises. One thing came be said about Jephthah, and that is, he made good on his promise to God, even when he really, really, really, with tears in his eye, didn't want to do it. And do you think if he could have thought of a loop hole in his promise, don't you think he would have tried to exercise it? The fact is, there was no way out for him. He had to do it.


(BTW, I hope I don't receive to many negative replies. I know by taking this position in the past that I've been labeled as some sort of heretic, but I believe my view is the correct one. Though I know it is probably the most politically incorrect view. )

So if I vow to God tomorrow to:

(1) Say prayers to Allah
(2) Build and worship an idol
(3) Blaspheme all three persons of the Trinity
(4) Actively and vigorously break the Sabbath and do everything I can to make others do so.
(5) Tell my parents I want them to burn and actively slander their name in the community.
(6) Kill and beat up as many people as I want to do.
(7) Hire a prostitute and try to seduce as many friends as I can.
(8) Joyride a few cars, steal my roommate's stuff, and generally be a thief.
(9) Lie profusely and viciously, both about myself and those I wish to slander.
(10) Covet and desire every good thing everyone I know has.

What I am hearing alleged here is that if I make this vow, unless God himself stays my hand, I sin unless I fulfill every aspect of my vow. Your position leaves only 2 options:

(1) That fulfilling the vow is not sinful, and the sinful nature of the acts promised are still sinful, so either fulfilling or not fulfilling the vow is sin.

(2) That fulfilling the vow makes previously sinful acts no longer sinful because committing them is now your obligation before God.

Neither position seems to me at all consistent with God's holiness and hatred of sin. Moreover, if both fulfilling and not fulfilling the vow is sin, then there's no door for repentance whatsover.

Am I missing something here?

That's not just wrong, it's really, really wrong, as any major confession will tell you. Not that one needs the confessions for this one.

:ditto:



I think you are taking the position to the extreme.

What I am saying that if you are going to make a promise, you are to take in consideration of what you are promising.

Therefore, before taking any oath or promise, one is to examine that promise very carefully, realizing that you will be held to your word and judged accordingly. I would advise anyone in general that they should not make promises if they can at all avoid it. I believe that would be in accordance with the King's commands, for didn't the King say:

" Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. "

So when I read the story of Jephthah and his daughter, I think back on the King's words and say how much better are his ways than mine. And many times before I sign a contract of some sort or make a promise of any kind, I think on Jephthah daughter.

Isn't this what the King would have us to do?

Christians are to be characterized as a people that keep their oaths. Christ is very clear on that fact.
But the position has to be taken to the extreme.

If there's a threshold for which breaking the vow is less sinful than carrying it out, then where is it located? If repenting of the vow and NOT carrying it out is not a valid option, then what option is there?

If I vow those things I've mentioned, under your position am I or am I not morally obligated to carry them out?

If I repent of the oath I made does it discharge the vow or am I still obligated to carry it out?
 
Even if it would be a sin to break an oath to commit murder (I'm granting that for the sake of argument)... it would be a far lesser sin to say, "Lord, please forgive me for my hasty oath to commit an egregious sin," than to go on and carry out the murder.
 
Here is, at least as I see it, another example of someone deciding to break off an oath to sin after he realised that to fulfil the oath would be sinful. David did not explicitly use the word "oath" or "vow", but he did invoke the name of God.

1 Sam 25:21Now David had said, Surely in vain have I kept all that this fellow hath in the wilderness, so that nothing was missed of all that pertained unto him: and he hath requited me evil for good. 22So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. 23And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, 24And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, upon me let this iniquity be: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid. 25Let not my lord, I pray thee, regard this man of Belial, even Nabal: for as his name is, so is he; Nabal is his name, and folly is with him: but I thine handmaid saw not the young men of my lord, whom thou didst send. 26Now therefore, my lord, as the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, seeing the LORD hath withholden thee from coming to shed blood, and from avenging thyself with thine own hand, now let thine enemies, and they that seek evil to my lord, be as Nabal. 27And now this blessing which thine handmaid hath brought unto my lord, let it even be given unto the young men that follow my lord. 28I pray thee, forgive the trespass of thine handmaid: for the LORD will certainly make my lord a sure house; because my lord fighteth the battles of the LORD, and evil hath not been found in thee all thy days. 29Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the LORD thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, as out of the middle of a sling. 30And it shall come to pass, when the LORD shall have done to my lord according to all the good that he hath spoken concerning thee, and shall have appointed thee ruler over Israel; 31That this shall be no grief unto thee, nor offence of heart unto my lord, either that thou hast shed blood causeless, or that my lord hath avenged himself: but when the LORD shall have dealt well with my lord, then remember thine handmaid. 32And David said to Abigail, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me: 33And blessed be thy advice, and blessed be thou, which hast kept me this day from coming to shed blood, and from avenging myself with mine own hand. 34For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. 35So David received of her hand that which she had brought him, and said unto her, Go up in peace to thine house; see, I have hearkened to thy voice, and have accepted thy person.
 
You said

God takes Vows very seriously. I think the lesson to be learned here is that we should be very careful about what we promise, and realize that God will hold us to it.

Then you said

Ok, Tim. I'll bite. Educate me please.

What confession or scripture says or indicates that God will not hold us to our word?

And I timed myself, and in less than two minutes after typing WCF oaths vows in at Google I found: (yes, I knew it was there, but still)

7. No man may vow to do any thing forbidden in the Word of God, or what would hinder any duty therein commanded, or which is not in his own power, and for the performance whereof he hath no promise of ability from God. In which respects, popish monastical vows of perpetual single life, professed poverty, and regular obedience, are so far from being degrees of higher perfection, that they are superstitious and sinful snares, in which no Christian may entangle himself.

Friend, it was NO VOW. It was an ILLEGAL VOW, and wasn't binding. Like Oedipus Rex, he WASN'T MARRIED since the VOW WAS ILLEGAL AND THEREFORE NO VOW.

Hmm. So the WCF provide one an escape clause when contracting with God?

I don't think that argument will hold much water.

BTW, the WCF just say, "No man may vow", I don't see any kind of release in that statement, giving the someone an out. If anything, the WCF is suggesting that the person is committing a sin in making the vow. Which agrees with what I have been saying all along.

As to Oedipus Rex, who says he wasn't married? Yes he was tricked into marring his mother, and that was a incestuous marriage, and in order for him to be right before God if he was a Christian, then a divorce would seem to be mandated. By the way wasn't Jocasta made queen because she was married to her son? At least that is how I remember the tragedy.
 
OK.
Mac, within the bounds of the confessions that rule this board, defining what has already been agreed to as "biblical" and already "proven"--which you agreed to abide by--your view is unconfessional, meaning it is unbiblical.

This is a moderating warning. Cease promoting the view that compounding sin is not adding sin to sin, and making an evil situation worse.

You may not fulfill a vow to sin. You may not offer to God worship in an unacceptable manner, something he has not commanded, or has disallowed.
 
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Here is, at least as I see it, another example of someone deciding to break off an oath to sin after he realised that to fulfil the oath would be sinful. David did not explicitly use the word "oath" or "vow", but he did invoke the name of God.

1 Sam 25:21Now David had said, Surely in vain have I kept all that this fellow hath in the wilderness, so that nothing was missed of all that pertained unto him: and he hath requited me evil for good. 22So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. 23And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, 24And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, upon me let this iniquity be: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid. 25Let not my lord, I pray thee, regard this man of Belial, even Nabal: for as his name is, so is he; Nabal is his name, and folly is with him: but I thine handmaid saw not the young men of my lord, whom thou didst send. 26Now therefore, my lord, as the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, seeing the LORD hath withholden thee from coming to shed blood, and from avenging thyself with thine own hand, now let thine enemies, and they that seek evil to my lord, be as Nabal. 27And now this blessing which thine handmaid hath brought unto my lord, let it even be given unto the young men that follow my lord. 28I pray thee, forgive the trespass of thine handmaid: for the LORD will certainly make my lord a sure house; because my lord fighteth the battles of the LORD, and evil hath not been found in thee all thy days. 29Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the LORD thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, as out of the middle of a sling. 30And it shall come to pass, when the LORD shall have done to my lord according to all the good that he hath spoken concerning thee, and shall have appointed thee ruler over Israel; 31That this shall be no grief unto thee, nor offence of heart unto my lord, either that thou hast shed blood causeless, or that my lord hath avenged himself: but when the LORD shall have dealt well with my lord, then remember thine handmaid. 32And David said to Abigail, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me: 33And blessed be thy advice, and blessed be thou, which hast kept me this day from coming to shed blood, and from avenging myself with mine own hand. 34For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. 35So David received of her hand that which she had brought him, and said unto her, Go up in peace to thine house; see, I have hearkened to thy voice, and have accepted thy person.

I love this story. Here you see King David declaring judgment on this wicket man, very much the same way that God declares judgment on sinners. But notice, the scriptures indicate that the Lord sent Abigail to cause him to repent of what he was planning. For doesn't the scriptures say, "Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me."

And if there was an oath in there, it should be noted that David said, "So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall."

Meaning, he is saying that if he doesn't kill this man and all the men, then the God should also spare the enemies of David. David could say this, but this statement by itself does not obligate him nor God. So in reality all that it means is that David was very enraged and was planning on killing some men. And he would have done so, if he Lord didn't send Abigail to stop him.

-----Added 2/2/2009 at 11:13:49 EST-----

OK.
Mac, within the bounds of the confessions that rule this board, defining what has already been agreed to as "biblical" and already "proven"--which you agreed to abide by--your view is unconfessional, meaning it is unbiblical.

This is a moderating warning. Cease promoting the view that compounding sin is not adding sin to sin, and making an evil situation worse.

You may not fulfill a vow to sin. You may not offer to God worship in an unacceptable manner, something he has not commanded or disallowed.



Actually I would agree strongly with:

"You may not fulfill a vow to sin. You may not offer to God worship in an unacceptable manner, something he has not commanded. "


I'm would also state that you can not make a vow to sin, which is in line with the confession.

I don't think I was promoting anything other Christian are to consider seriously their vows prior to taking them so that they wouldn't sin by taking those vows or sin in keeping those vows.

If someone believes that I was promoting sin by promoting that which I immediately just said, please PM me. This would be of great concern to me.
 
OK, Mac. I wouldn't want to mistakenly attribute to you something you didn't say. But it did appear, even after the WCF was quoted to you, that you had an issue with what it said, namely that it was sinful to fulfill a sinful vow, that somehow the WCF was offering an illegitimate "escape clause" for the "inconvenience" of fulfilling such a vow as was sinful to bind oneself to performing.

That sort of vow should be repented of, correct? Abjured, and not performed.

It seems that, so far in this thread, you have been the only person taking the position that Jeptha DID kill the girl, but DIDN'T sin when he did so.

Rather than arguing for the necessity of fulfilling "difficult" vows, and "swearing to your own hurt," it would have been prudent to deal with the great and many problems that are raised when the rashness of the vow in the first place is superseded by the apparent sinfulness of trying to carry it out by the "most obvious" method.

It is indeed the case that a "rash" vow must frequently be performed, even when the cost is high, but the consequences are not sinful. Detrimental maybe, but not excusable.

But note what the confession says regarding "monastical" vows. Without promise from God to fulfill them, and positive commands to marry and be fruitful, it is more sinful not to repent of the original vow, and abjure it, than to "suck it up" and stay single because you "vowed it to God."

It would be an easy argument to make that the "cost" may be high, but that's the price you pay for not thinking far enough ahead. She can find another man, but you're stuck in the cloister. The point is clear enough, I think. We need Scriptural warrant, with no disallowance, for the vows in the first place, since they are an "element of religious worship," invoking God as witness.
 
So if I vow to God tomorrow to:

(1) Say prayers to Allah
(2) Build and worship an idol
(3) Blaspheme all three persons of the Trinity
(4) Actively and vigorously break the Sabbath and do everything I can to make others do so.
(5) Tell my parents I want them to burn and actively slander their name in the community.
(6) Kill and beat up as many people as I want to do.
(7) Hire a prostitute and try to seduce as many friends as I can.
(8) Joyride a few cars, steal my roommate's stuff, and generally be a thief.
(9) Lie profusely and viciously, both about myself and those I wish to slander.
(10) Covet and desire every good thing everyone I know has.

What I am hearing alleged here is that if I make this vow, unless God himself stays my hand, I sin unless I fulfill every aspect of my vow. Your position leaves only 2 options:

(1) That fulfilling the vow is not sinful, and the sinful nature of the acts promised are still sinful, so either fulfilling or not fulfilling the vow is sin.

(2) That fulfilling the vow makes previously sinful acts no longer sinful because committing them is now your obligation before God.

Neither position seems to me at all consistent with God's holiness and hatred of sin. Moreover, if both fulfilling and not fulfilling the vow is sin, then there's no door for repentance whatsover.

Am I missing something here?



:ditto:



I think you are taking the position to the extreme.

What I am saying that if you are going to make a promise, you are to take in consideration of what you are promising.

Therefore, before taking any oath or promise, one is to examine that promise very carefully, realizing that you will be held to your word and judged accordingly. I would advise anyone in general that they should not make promises if they can at all avoid it. I believe that would be in accordance with the King's commands, for didn't the King say:

" Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. "

So when I read the story of Jephthah and his daughter, I think back on the King's words and say how much better are his ways than mine. And many times before I sign a contract of some sort or make a promise of any kind, I think on Jephthah daughter.

Isn't this what the King would have us to do?

Christians are to be characterized as a people that keep their oaths. Christ is very clear on that fact.
But the position has to be taken to the extreme.

If there's a threshold for which breaking the vow is less sinful than carrying it out, then where is it located? If repenting of the vow and NOT carrying it out is not a valid option, then what option is there?

If I vow those things I've mentioned, under your position am I or am I not morally obligated to carry them out?

If I repent of the oath I made does it discharge the vow or am I still obligated to carry it out?


Point taken.

This is why I avoid if at all possible taking a vow in the first place. Promises can get you into sticky situations. I think of many scriptural references. I think about where Joshua made a vow with the Gibeonites. It was sin for him to make such as vow in the first place, but he still had to keep it anyways.

Also, least Numbers gives wives and daughters an out for rash vows, where I can't find any relief for men.

I need to give this more thought.:think:

We all know that the avoidance of sin, and the compounding of sin needs to be avoided, and we all know that God provides us a ways out of sin. So there must be a path of reasoning here.

But right now I don't see it.

My main point has always been refrain from making sinful promises in the first place. Ya know, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

But, oh what to do when you are trapped in sin!!!!!!

All that I can say to the sinner right now is for him to cry out to God for mercy.
 
But, oh what to do when you are trapped in sin!!!!!!

All that I can say to the sinner right now is for him to cry out to God for mercy.

And not compound sin. Right? 'cause if you agree with this I think we're all on the same page.

Peace, brother.
 
OK, Mac. I wouldn't want to mistakenly attribute to you something you didn't say. But it did appear, even after the WCF was quoted to you, that you had an issue with what it said, namely that it was sinful to fulfill a sinful vow, that somehow the WCF was offering an illegitimate "escape clause" for the "inconvenience" of fulfilling such a vow as was sinful to bind oneself to performing.

That sort of vow should be repented of, correct? Abjured, and not performed.

It seems that, so far in this thread, you have been the only person taking the position that Jeptha DID kill the girl, but DIDN'T sin when he did so.

Rather than arguing for the necessity of fulfilling "difficult" vows, and "swearing to your own hurt," it would have been prudent to deal with the great and many problems that are raised when the rashness of the vow in the first place is superseded by the apparent sinfulness of trying to carry it out by the "most obvious" method.

It is indeed the case that a "rash" vow must frequently be performed, even when the cost is high, but the consequences are not sinful. Detrimental maybe, but not excusable.

But note what the confession says regarding "monastical" vows. Without promise from God to fulfill them, and positive commands to marry and be fruitful, it is more sinful not to repent of the original vow, and abjure it, than to "suck it up" and stay single because you "vowed it to God."

It would be an easy argument to make that the "cost" may be high, but that's the price you pay for not thinking far enough ahead. She can find another man, but you're stuck in the cloister. The point is clear enough, I think. We need Scriptural warrant, with no disallowance, for the vows in the first place, since they are an "element of religious worship," invoking God as witness.


I was only commenting that WCF only say that "No man should make a vow". In that taking such as vow be sin.

As to be repented of, I don't think the WCF states that. Chapter 22 is about the taking of lawful oaths and promises more so that the keeping of oaths and promises.

However, I do think about Martin Luther who obviously did away with his monastic vows, and I think of many other people who have broken ties with churches of Satan and I do not believe that God is going to count it against them. For if this were the case, then many of us would be in serious trouble.

But at the same time, I believe it is very dangerous for rules to be laid out on when and when you can not break your promises. Each situation is unique, and each situation I believe requires careful examination, much consultation, and requires much prayer and searching through God's word.


As far as Jephthah goes, I think he was is a position as Joshua when he made a promise that he shouldn't have. I will say that if he had the WCF Chapter 22 and understood it, he wouldn't have found himself in the mess he was in. But he only had the first five books the bible, and I don't know how much he read them.

How privilege we are to have completed scriptures to guide us!!!!

May we all learn from Jephthah, and I would advice everyone to read WCF Chapter 22 in order to keep us from making unlawful promises.

-----Added 2/3/2009 at 01:22:35 EST-----

But, oh what to do when you are trapped in sin!!!!!!

All that I can say to the sinner right now is for him to cry out to God for mercy.

And not compound sin. Right? 'cause if you agree with this I think we're all on the same page.

Peace, brother.
:ditto:

I would agree that we should avoid compounding sin. And many times that can be a fine line.

As far as on the same page, I don't know if we are there together, but we are obviously in the same chapter, and I am trying to catch up to you. :book2:
 
As far as Jephthah goes, I think he was is a position as Joshua when he made a promise that he shouldn't have. I will say that if he had the WCF Chapter 22 and understood it, he wouldn't have found himself in the mess he was in. But he only had the first five books the bible, and I don't know how much he read them.

In Judges 10 you see that Jephthah displays some excellent familiarity with those five books.

I think Ecclesiastes has made your main point for you: it is better to not vow, than to vow and not pay.
 
Has anyone read the link that Chris posted above to Bob Vincent's sermon? It encapsulates a lot of the way that I read judges. Those people were not righteous in their actions for the most part. It is a narrative of a gracious God dealing mercifully with a consistently rebellious people. Just look at the great hero Gideon and what he did in leading his people astray after such great success.

I don't think you can rip Jepthah from that context and understand it accurately without doing some serious eisegetical gymnastics.
 
Dear friends

I am amazed in how this thread has grown. Please bear with me if I go back on three remarks in some of the earlier posts on this thread.

Joshua wrote:
So, you don't think having one's name blotted out in the OT was lamentable? Or perpetual virginity of a woman never being able to marry?
Joshua, I am of the opinion that the only way that Jephtah's name could be blotted out was by having no offspring. The clearest way in indicating the end to Jephtah's name in Israel, would have been a sacrifice based on heathen practices. If I remember correctly the god Cemosh of the Moabites were known as someone to whom humans were sacrificed. My take on Jephtah's vow is, that it brought him to the point of getting mixed up with who the Lord really is. Some Israelites started with a syncretistic type of worship, which is even going so far as the prophets.

The argument that Jephtah's daughter was doing tabernacle duty as a virgin, is more or less build on the silence of the Bible in not describing the sacrifice. Nowhere (else, depending on your point of view) in the Bible (as far as I can tell), is there an example of a woman who was designated to temple/tabernacle service because she was 'sacrificed' to the Lord.

I find it interesting that the early Christian Church saw Jephtah's sacrifice as literal. During the Middle Ages the position started to change and it was said that Jephtah's sacrifice was a spiritual sacrifice. Martin Luther saw it as a literal sacrifice.

Contra Mundum wrote:
But, finally, are these passages MORE relevant to interpreting Judges 11 than an appeal to Hebrews 11? A superficial similarity in that the three speak about killing one's offspring does not seem to me to bind the passages together. The details and directions of all three seem to diverge rather than converge. :2cents:

What is clear to me about Judges 11:39-40 is the following:
It seems to me that we may have different ways of reading the Bible. I am very very cautious of too quickly reading the Old Testament through the eyes of the New Testament. (However I am not saying is should or can't be done, but it would only be my next step.) In Judges 19-20 plays clearly on Genesis 18:16 - 19:38 which implies that Israel has become just as Sodom and Gommora. I mentioned Genesis 22 and 1 Samuel 14 as it is the nearest examples of something similar that is described in the Bible. Yet, we need to be cautious to oversimplify things. There are points of agreement in all three stories and points of disagreement. I am not denying that.
  1. The Bible is very sympathetic to the victim of Jephtah's vow.
  2. In the context of the Bible, this sacrifice happened in the time before the prophets when the Canaanite peoples made human sacrifices. In 2 Kings 3:26-27 we read of the king of Moab, who sacrificed his firstborn to Cemosh (although the god's name is not mentioned). It shocked the Israelites so much that they turned from their persecution of the Moabites. (This was however in the time of the kings).
  3. The important theme of worshipping the Lord in your own way, recurs in Judges. The book ends with the words:
    In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes. (ESV)
    This theme is seen in the story of the Levite and how they reverted to Idol worship in Judges 18. It becomes clear in the way that the marginalised are dealt with. Look at how the Levite in Judges 19 treats his concubine.
[FONT=&quot]Augusta wrote:
Did people keep livestock in their houses? :think:That part has always bugged me. Why would he say it like that? When you come home it is usually people who come out to meet you, or the dog will come to greet you if you have one, but livestock? This whole story is a conundrum.
The Hebrew word 'bayit' is much more comprehensive than how we understood it today. It could mean 'household,' thus a the people that stays with you and my have nothing to do with animals.

It is also possible that the ancient Israelites had the same concept of a house than the Zulu and Sotho speaking peoples of South Africa. When they refer to a house, it refers to the house and its immediate surroundings. In Afrikaans we would call it a 'kraal.' (These day, some English Dictionaries also includes the word.) It is the ground, including the place where the cattle are braising, it also includes the family graveyard. If you go to a Zulu person's house (in rural areas), you don't knock and enter when he opens the door, you stand outside his yard and shouts 'Ko-ko' until someone comes out and invite you into the grounds and thus into his house.

If it is the first option, Jephtah's mistake wasn't just the fact that the vow he took was irresponsible, but that he thought he could manipulate God in the same way as the heathens (Canaanites) believed that they could manipulate their gods. The Lord gives him victory over the Amonites, but He punishes his arrogance and sinful vow severely, by sending out Jephtah's daughter. The Lord is not like other gods, He is the One and true God who no-one should take for granted.

I wonder if something similar doesn't happen in 1 Samuel 3:19-4:22. The Israelites thought that they could manipulate the Lord by forcing him to be present in battle. By using the symbol of his presence, almost as if God was some sort of a jack-in-the-box that would jump out at any moment, they brought the ark of the covenant in their camp. God punished them by letting this symbol of his presence be captured. It is interesting that Eli dies when he hears that God's ark is gone and Phinehas' wife names her son Ichabod which could be translated, 'Where is the Presence [of God]/ Honour?' Even the Philistines in 1 Samuel 5-7:1 are taught that you don't play or take the Lord for granted.

I think Jephtah took the Lord for granted with his vow, not remembering that the Lord is not like the Canaanite gods that is easily manipulated.

All and all, this is my take on the story of Jepthah's daughter. I am open to be convinced otherwise.

Kind regards
:detective:

Elimelek (or whatever)
[/FONT]
 
On a lighter note. I am probably the only one here who had the this text preached on at my wedding. The preacher my freind made the point of not taking vow making lightly. You should have seen the faces on many of the attendees after the text was read. :eek:
 
In Judges 10 you see that Jephthah displays some excellent familiarity with those five books.

That's a good point. Jephthah was familiar with Israel's history, and knew enough to describe to Ammon why it would be insanity to go up against the Israelite people while they were trusting in God. Jephthah was part of the believing remnant in Israel.

I guess that somewhat works against the "he acted out of ignorance" line -- if not to refute it, then at least to make it somewhat cloudy.
 
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On a lighter note. I am probably the only one here who had the this text preached on at my wedding. The preacher my freind made the point of not taking vow making lightly. You should have seen the faces on many of the attendees after the text was read. :eek:

:rofl::lol:
 
On a lighter note. I am probably the only one here who had the this text preached on at my wedding. The preacher my freind made the point of not taking vow making lightly. You should have seen the faces on many of the attendees after the text was read. :eek:

Aye, I know that look. At my wedding, Chopin's funeral march was played on the piano 'cause Toni and I both like the tune. That also caused some 'deer in the headlights' expressions.

Theognome
 
On a lighter note. I am probably the only one here who had the this text preached on at my wedding. The preacher my freind made the point of not taking vow making lightly. You should have seen the faces on many of the attendees after the text was read. :eek:

I do not think that would be my choise text for a wedding :lol:
 
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