Jesus loves the little children.

[Osage Bluestem]

I was told by a Roman Catholic that I couldn't sing the song "Jesus loves the little children" without being a liar because I am a calvinist.

What are your thoughts on the extent of the love of God and how to answer people who say things like; "a calvinist can't sing Jesus loves the little children or he will be a liar in his heart before God".

Note: It is my current understanding that God indeed does hate the reprobate and that they are predestined before the foundation of the world to receive the outpouring of God's wrath in justice for their wickedness, because of the perfectness of God's infinite will that I as a finite creature can't understand. So with this understanding I have a hard time saying God loves (as I understand the ddefinition of love I guess) every person who has ever existed. Also I look to the scripture that says this:

Romans 9:13-16 KJV
[13] As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
[14] What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This passage does not say Esau's sin have I hated. It says Esau have I hated. So I am not in the God hates the sin but loves the sinner camp. As I understand it he loves only his elect.

I have also been influenced in my view on this by Dr. Robert Morey (Westminster Seminary man) who's view is made very clear in this video:

[video=youtube;d0sobp4WV9U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0sobp4WV9U[/video]

So please, give me your thoughts and concerns. Does God love everyone?

 

[SolaScriptura]

David -

The topic of the love of God is a bit more complex than some would think.

I highly encourage you to pick up - and read - a copy of DA Carson's "The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God." It is a relatively short book, and while it won't answer every question, it at least does a good job of pointing out the various facets or aspects of God's love and what that means in different contexts.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

You may find some of these helpful:

http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/people-does-god-love-57923/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f17/does-god-hate-all-who-not-christian-54527/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/gods-hatred-50145/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f17/does-god-have-emotions-10189/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/does-god-have-emotions-42327/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f121/does-god-love-everyone-42773/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f48/does-hatred-means-love-less-29912/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/yet-another-question-does-god-love-reprobate-20914/

Great list of resource threads to cover! Thanks Joshua.

I will certainly read through them.

However, the main purpose of this thread is that I have given my view, which is indeed established, I believe can be defended as Dr. Morey showed, but I would like to hear the views of members of this forum. What do you actually think? What are your views on this matter? Do you feel in your heart that God loves everyone or do you feel that he hates the reprobate and has hated them since before he made them? Also how would you answer the question raised by the Roman Catholic. With my view I kindof thought well in a way she is right! I don't think he loves every child but then I think to myself what am I saying and i doubt my convictions... So, thoughts?

 

[heartoflesh]

My very young children take home Sunday school stuff all the time saying "Jesus Loves Me" and so on. I justify this by reflecting on the attribute of God called compassion. Sure, in a sense he "doesn't desire the death of anyone", and is "compassionate towards all he has created". But obviously I do not allow one attribute of God to become the all-governing sphere by which I seek to understand a more complete picture of God's dealings with men.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

David -

The topic of the love of God is a bit more complex than some would think.

I highly encourage you to pick up - and read - a copy of DA Carson's "The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God." It is a relatively short book, and while it won't answer every question, it at least does a good job of pointing out the various facets or aspects of God's love and what that means in different contexts.

Would you say my view is orthodox or are Dr. Morey and myself verging on hypercalvinist heresy from your perspective?

 

[ubermadchen]

Wouldn't want to sing that song anyway. What about the brown kids? Will no one love the brown kids?

 

[Tripel]

Wouldn't want to sing that song anyway. What about the brown kids? Will no one love the brown kids?

My daughter has a video that has this song being sung, and they include "brown".

Red, brown, yellow, black, and white
They are precious in His sight

 

[Osage Bluestem]

No olive?

 

[SolaScriptura]

David -

The topic of the love of God is a bit more complex than some would think.

I highly encourage you to pick up - and read - a copy of DA Carson's "The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God." It is a relatively short book, and while it won't answer every question, it at least does a good job of pointing out the various facets or aspects of God's love and what that means in different contexts.

What I'm saying is that I think there is a sense in which God "loves" only the elect, and there is a sense in which God "loves" all his creation. Read the book.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

David -

The topic of the love of God is a bit more complex than some would think.

I highly encourage you to pick up - and read - a copy of DA Carson's "The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God." It is a relatively short book, and while it won't answer every question, it at least does a good job of pointing out the various facets or aspects of God's love and what that means in different contexts.

What I'm saying is that I think there is a sense in which God "loves" only the elect, and there is a sense in which God "loves" all his creation. Read the book.

Sounds like a good book. I'll check it out.

So, do you agree that if someone says something like "why would Christ only die for the elect and not everyone if he loves everyone" I can say "well, he doesn't love everyone" without being one bit misleading?

 

[KMK]

You may find some of these helpful:

http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/people-does-god-love-57923/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f17/does-god-hate-all-who-not-christian-54527/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/gods-hatred-50145/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f17/does-god-have-emotions-10189/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/does-god-have-emotions-42327/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f121/does-god-love-everyone-42773/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f48/does-hatred-means-love-less-29912/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/yet-another-question-does-god-love-reprobate-20914/

Great list of resource threads to cover! Thanks Joshua.

I will certainly read through them.

However, the main purpose of this thread is that I have given my view, which is indeed established, I believe can be defended as Dr. Morey showed, but I would like to hear the views of members of this forum. What do you actually think? What are your views on this matter? Do you feel in your heart that God loves everyone or do you feel that he hates the reprobate and has hated them since before he made them? Also how would you answer the question raised by the Roman Catholic. With my view I kindof thought well in a way she is right! I don't think he loves every child but then I think to myself what am I saying and i doubt my convictions... So, thoughts?

If you want substantial answers to your question, you are going to have to define what you believe God's love is. That is why Joshua and Ben are directing you to these other resources.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

You may find some of these helpful:

http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/people-does-god-love-57923/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f17/does-god-hate-all-who-not-christian-54527/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/gods-hatred-50145/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f17/does-god-have-emotions-10189/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/does-god-have-emotions-42327/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f121/does-god-love-everyone-42773/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f48/does-hatred-means-love-less-29912/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/yet-another-question-does-god-love-reprobate-20914/

Great list of resource threads to cover! Thanks Joshua.

I will certainly read through them.

However, the main purpose of this thread is that I have given my view, which is indeed established, I believe can be defended as Dr. Morey showed, but I would like to hear the views of members of this forum. What do you actually think? What are your views on this matter? Do you feel in your heart that God loves everyone or do you feel that he hates the reprobate and has hated them since before he made them? Also how would you answer the question raised by the Roman Catholic. With my view I kindof thought well in a way she is right! I don't think he loves every child but then I think to myself what am I saying and i doubt my convictions... So, thoughts?

If you want substantial answers to your question, you are going to have to define what you believe God's love is. That is why Joshua and Ben are directing you to these other resources.

I understand God's love for his elect as a familial love like a father would have for a child. I don't think he loves the reprobate given that understanding based on what I believe is revealed in scripture. It looks to me like there are only two people in the world; Israel and the children of the devil.

 

[Jon Peters]

David -

The topic of the love of God is a bit more complex than some would think.

I highly encourage you to pick up - and read - a copy of DA Carson's "The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God." It is a relatively short book, and while it won't answer every question, it at least does a good job of pointing out the various facets or aspects of God's love and what that means in different contexts.

What I'm saying is that I think there is a sense in which God "loves" only the elect, and there is a sense in which God "loves" all his creation. Read the book.

I agree. I think it's important not to get "stuck" on the hate language in Scripture. There is a very real way, though not always redemptive, that God loves all of his creation. Is it not his love that pleads with men to turn to him? I suppose even then one could argue that he is pleading only with the elect. I think the free offer debate is closely connected with your question.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

If I was talking to an arminain friend or a catholic or something and I needed to say that God doesn't love everyone, would I have the full backing of the Reformed Churches on that or am I going to far? That is what I would really like to know.

 

[Jon Peters]

If I was talking to an arminain friend or a catholic or something and I needed to say that God doesn't love everyone, would I have the full backing of the Reformed Churches on that or am I going to far? That is what I would really like to know.

I think it really depends on the content of your statement. God does not love everybody redemptively. Christ did not die for all. But there is a sense in which he does love everyone. I go back to the free offer of the gospel: What compels God to extend the gospel to every man?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

If I was talking to an arminain friend or a catholic or something and I needed to say that God doesn't love everyone, would I have the full backing of the Reformed Churches on that or am I going to far? That is what I would really like to know.

I think it really depends on the content of your statement. God does not love everybody redemptively. Christ did not die for all. But there is a sense in which he does love everyone. I go back to the free offer of the gospel: What compels God to extend the gospel to every man?

God has the gospel proclaimed to the entire earth because it deserves to be proclaimed and it is his will that men hear it. It is good news for the elect and will be a curse for the reprobate, but yet it glorifes God when it is heard because the gospel is good and deserves to be proclaimed. That's the way I see it anyway.

But if someone was making an argument that God loves everyone therefore he died for everyone and should give everyone a chance for salvation, is it not prudent to explain that God does not love everyone?

 

[heartoflesh]

But if someone was making an argument that God loves everyone therefore he died for everyone and should give everyone a chance for salvation, is it not prudent to explain that God does not love everyone?

Yes, when they're getting that specific in regards to what God's love is, you must explain it is NOT that.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

But if someone was making an argument that God loves everyone therefore he died for everyone and should give everyone a chance for salvation, is it not prudent to explain that God does not love everyone?

Yes, when they're getting that specific in regards to what God's love is, you must explain it is NOT that.

Thanks. I just wanted to make sure that I'm not doing wrong and you guys agree because at first it does indeed sound harsh to say God does not love everyone. So I feel better checking myself against my peers every once in awhile in regards to this kind of thing. I don't doubt God's word but I do doubt my interpretation of it from time to time because I know I'm ridiculous.

Any pastors or elders agree that it is ok to say God doesn't love everyone in a situation like that?

 

[heartoflesh]

Any pastors or elders agree that it is ok to say God doesn't love everyone in a situation like that?

I'm not a pastor or elder, but I would really want to be prepared to back up that kind of statement, with the entire concept of the Covenant of Grace firmly planted in my mind and ready to explain it clearly.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Any pastors or elders agree that it is ok to say God doesn't love everyone in a situation like that?

I'm not a pastor or elder, but I would really want to be prepared to back up that kind of statement, with the entire concept of the Covenant of Grace firmly planted in my mind and ready to explain it clearly.

I agree. I find it necessary to say sometimes though or limited atonement doesn't make sense to a person who has been bred on the idea that God died for everyone and that he is trying to get all men to just choose him so they can be saved. The idea that God just didn't love the reprobate in the first place and actively predestined him for damnation many times never even occured to them.

 

[JML]

I go back to the free offer of the gospel: What compels God to extend the gospel to every man?

He doesn't.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I just watched that video... holy smokes... and I thought that I was abrasive! Sheesh!

Regardless... he's no DA Carson. So again I'd urge you to read book.

 

[MW]

I don't think D A Carson is going to provide the Calvinist answer which is being sought in this thread.

Jesus' love is clearly manifested in the undeniable fact that He has died for sinners. There are two points which accompany this undeniable fact. First, Jesus has not died for every sinner; therefore Jesus cannot be said to love every sinner. Secondly, the death of Jesus is offered to every sinner who hears the gospel as the only basis upon which they can be saved; therefore Jesus can be said to hold out His love as a revelation to be embraced by faith to every sinner who hears the gospel.

Should one say, Jesus loves little children? Yes, because Jesus has died for those who are little children. Should one say, Jesus loves each and every individual little child? No, because Jesus has not died for each and every individual little child. Jesus reveals His love for little children in dying for their sins to reconcile them to God, and every little child that believes in Jesus can believe that He loves them and has given Himself for them.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Thanks Rev. Winzer.

I think you have solidified that it is ok for me to speak about this subject without feeling bad about it. That's a very good answer to the indictment.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I don't think D A Carson is going to provide the Calvinist answer which is being sought in this thread.

Jesus' love is clearly manifested in the undeniable fact that He has died for sinners. There are two points which accompany this undeniable fact. First, Jesus has not died for every sinner; therefore Jesus cannot be said to love every sinner. Secondly, the death of Jesus is offered to every sinner who hears the gospel as the only basis upon which they can be saved; therefore Jesus can be said to hold out His love as a revelation to be embraced by faith to every sinner who hears the gospel.

Should one say, Jesus loves little children? Yes, because Jesus has died for those who are little children. Should one say, Jesus loves each and every individual little child? No, because Jesus has not died for each and every individual little child. Jesus reveals His love for little children in dying for their sins to reconcile them to God, and every little child that believes in Jesus can believe that He loves them and has given Himself for them.

Matt - I hear you.
However, David has pressed for a degree of precision in precisely what he's being asked that I rarely if ever find from a lay-person or common person on the street who would be making a "Jesus loves you" type of statement. Pardon me, but his question sounds an awful lot to these jaded ears (or eyes, since I'm reading it) like a question posed by a young private in which they're going to take your answer and run with it in a direction that I don't intend. What I hear him asking is if it is ok to counter a "God loves everyone" statement with a "No he doesn't!" response, and I certainly think that Scripture is nuanced to the point that an across the board repudiation of the statement that God loves everyone is unwise - and in fact displays almost as much lack of precision as the question in the first place... until you know what, precisely, is intended.
I think Carson's book is important precisely because he underscores the point that references to God's love do not mean the same thing in every place, and we get in trouble if we think that every reference to God's love refers to precisely the same thing in the exact same way.

 

[MW]

Matt - I hear you.
However, David has pressed for a degree of precision in precisely what he's being asked that I rarely if ever find from a lay-person or common person on the street who would be making a "Jesus loves you" type of statement. Pardon me, but his question sounds an awful lot to these jaded ears (or eyes, since I'm reading it) like a question posed by a young private in which they're going to take your answer and run with it in a direction that I don't intend. What I hear him asking is if it is ok to counter a "God loves everyone" statement with a "No he doesn't!" response, and I certainly think that Scripture is nuanced to the point that an across the board repudiation of the statement that God loves everyone is unwise - and in fact displays almost as much lack of precision as the question in the first place... until you know what, precisely, is intended.
I think Carson's book is important precisely because he underscores the point that references to God's love do not mean the same thing in every place, and we get in trouble if we think that every reference to God's love refers to precisely the same thing in the exact same way.

Hi Ben. Who is Matt?

Carson will certainly provide nuances to the discussion but he only synthesises Calvinist and Arminian thought, and he develops the idea of a love of God which he believes gives biblical credence to that synthesis. I believe he is mistaken. His rhetoric (even allowing the material was originally in lecture form) is unhelpful. He often employs scholastic categories without giving due acknowledgment, and masks these as his own observations, so that the reader is left without any way of testing what he is saying in terms of theological constructs. His ideas of providential, pleading, and conditional divine love would lead us all into oblivion so far as assurance of salvation is concerned. The book is useful in terms of opening up theological avenues to explore, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone who is struggling to understand the doctrine.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Matt - I hear you.
However, David has pressed for a degree of precision in precisely what he's being asked that I rarely if ever find from a lay-person or common person on the street who would be making a "Jesus loves you" type of statement. Pardon me, but his question sounds an awful lot to these jaded ears (or eyes, since I'm reading it) like a question posed by a young private in which they're going to take your answer and run with it in a direction that I don't intend. What I hear him asking is if it is ok to counter a "God loves everyone" statement with a "No he doesn't!" response, and I certainly think that Scripture is nuanced to the point that an across the board repudiation of the statement that God loves everyone is unwise - and in fact displays almost as much lack of precision as the question in the first place... until you know what, precisely, is intended.
I think Carson's book is important precisely because he underscores the point that references to God's love do not mean the same thing in every place, and we get in trouble if we think that every reference to God's love refers to precisely the same thing in the exact same way.

Hi Ben. Who is Matt?

Carson will certainly provide nuances to the discussion but he only synthesises Calvinist and Arminian thought, and he develops the idea of a love of God which he believes gives biblical credence to that synthesis. I believe he is mistaken. His rhetoric (even allowing the material was originally in lecture form) is unhelpful. He often employs scholastic categories without giving due acknowledgment, and masks these as his own observations, so that the reader is left without any way of testing what he is saying in terms of theological constructs. His ideas of providential, pleading, and conditional divine love would lead us all into oblivion so far as assurance of salvation is concerned. The book is useful in terms of opening up theological avenues to explore, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone who is struggling to understand the doctrine.

I find your analysis interesting. Perhaps precisely because the book was profoundly helpful for me when I was struggling to understand the doctrine. Too many people have a theology that suffers from an anemic and undeveloped understanding of God's love. They think "love is concern, if God anywhere shows concern for people then that means God loves them" and they don't make any distinction between God's intra-Trinitarian love, God's general love for His creation, His redemptive love for his elect, etc. Which I think is very important.
But we can disagree on the value of the book. I'm down with that.

 

[Jimmy the Greek]

Carson will certainly provide nuances to the discussion but he only synthesises Calvinist and Arminian thought, and he develops the idea of a love of God which he believes gives biblical credence to that synthesis. I believe he is mistaken. His rhetoric (even allowing the material was originally in lecture form) is unhelpful. He often employs scholastic categories without giving due acknowledgment, and masks these as his own observations, so that the reader is left without any way of testing what he is saying in terms of theological constructs. His ideas of providential, pleading, and conditional divine love would lead us all into oblivion so far as assurance of salvation is concerned. The book is useful in terms of opening up theological avenues to explore, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone who is struggling to understand the doctrine.

I agree with Matthew here. I found Carson profoundly unhelpful and muddled in this book. It should have been left as an unpublished audio lecture.

Carson is good in many areas. Not here in my opinion. He is not Confessional (as far as I know) and I wouldn't categorize him as Reformed.

 

[TimV]

That song brings back ugly memories of the fundy dipsy church where I grew up. Like walking in the garden alone and the love we share as we tarry there no one else in history has ever known, and the Song of Songs has nothing to do with romance between a man and a woman etc...

Like as, if you're a diabetic you shouldn't sing those songs without an insulin shot.

But plugging Rev. Winzer's analysis into the song, it would go:

Jesus loves the little children
Some of the children in the world
Red brown yellow black and white
Some are precious in His sight

Yuck to both versions. Unless there's a sermonette before hand explaining "All the children in the world" refers to "the elect of every tribe, nation and language" and not to all the children in general.

 

[Skyler]

I disagree. There is a sense in which God loves everyone, in that everyone bears His image and He loves His image. But at the same time, he hates the unregenerate sinner because of his sin nature. I don't think it's contradictory to both love and hate someone.