Jesus was clearly a dispensationalist!

[ReformedWretch]

Someone has made this comment to me in a discussion.

Jesus clearly teaches what is important to Him. And one of those things that He loves is the nation of Israel. And when He says He will regather unbelieving Jews back to an unbelieving nation of Israel, and so called Christians don't believe Jesus, thereby declaring He is a liar, I question their Christianity.

I asked him for the scripture refrence for this, I am still waiting. I suspect I will be for some time.

 

[Average Joey]

Originally posted by houseparent
Someone has made this comment to me in a discussion.

Jesus clearly teaches what is important to Him. And one of those things that He loves is the nation of Israel. And when He says He will regather unbelieving Jews back to an unbelieving nation of Israel, and so called Christians don't believe Jesus, thereby declaring He is a liar, I question their Christianity.

I asked him for the scripture refrence for this, I am still waiting. I suspect I will be for some time.

Again there they go with the bold gospel of dispensationalism.Tell that person to avoid everything in the Old Testament and everything in he New Testament refering to Israel.He/she has no right to read it since apparently it has nothing to do with us.

Just give them this verse.I never get a response:

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

 

[BlackCalvinist]

Too funny. I wouldn't go as far as questioning anyone's Christianity over the nation of Israel. While I do agree that God will regather unbelieving Israel back to the land, I also believe that 2/3 of those folk will be 'cut off' and that the remaining third will come to recognize Christ as their messiah at His return and in the midst of harsh persecution. What this fellow fails to realize is that unbelieving Israel is currently an ENEMY of the cross - just like every other non-Jew who also does not believe upon Jesus.

All too often Dispensational folks turn the love of God into mere sentimentality, forgetting that God's wrath equally abides on ALL those who reject Him presently, including Israel. The only 'people of God' that God loves in the truest sense are His elect. Everyone else falls under a 'lesser' type of love, including physical/national Israel. And while I do believe that it is God's will eventually for national Israel to be saved (and Spurgeon also agreed with this), they do not enjoy any other favor from God for now, other than the ability to keep their national identity.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Kerry,
How did you aquire the percentage (2/3)?



[Edited on 12-10-2004 by Scott Bushey]

 

[Me Died Blue]

Originally posted by OS_X
While I do agree that God will regather unbelieving Israel back to the land, I also believe that 2/3 of those folk will be 'cut off' and that the remaining third will come to recognize Christ as their messiah at His return and in the midst of harsh persecution.

Out of curiosity, what are your reasons for believing both of those things?

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by Me Died Blue

Originally posted by OS_X
While I do agree that God will regather unbelieving Israel back to the land, I also believe that 2/3 of those folk will be 'cut off' and that the remaining third will come to recognize Christ as their messiah at His return and in the midst of harsh persecution.

Out of curiosity, what are your reasons for believing both of those things?

Uh oh! I predict a thread split a'comin

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by OS_X


Too funny. I wouldn't go as far as questioning anyone's Christianity over the nation of Israel. While I do agree that God will regather unbelieving Israel back to the land, I also believe that 2/3 of those folk will be 'cut off' and that the remaining third will come to recognize Christ as their messiah at His return and in the midst of harsh persecution. What this fellow fails to realize is that unbelieving Israel is currently an ENEMY of the cross - just like every other non-Jew who also does not believe upon Jesus.

All too often Dispensational folks turn the love of God into mere sentimentality, forgetting that God's wrath equally abides on ALL those who reject Him presently, including Israel. The only 'people of God' that God loves in the truest sense are His elect. Everyone else falls under a 'lesser' type of love, including physical/national Israel. And while I do believe that it is God's will eventually for national Israel to be saved (and Spurgeon also agreed with this), they do not enjoy any other favor from God for now, other than the ability to keep their national identity.

Zechariah 13:7"“9 ??

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by tcalbrecht

Originally posted by OS_X


Too funny. I wouldn't go as far as questioning anyone's Christianity over the nation of Israel. While I do agree that God will regather unbelieving Israel back to the land, I also believe that 2/3 of those folk will be 'cut off' and that the remaining third will come to recognize Christ as their messiah at His return and in the midst of harsh persecution. What this fellow fails to realize is that unbelieving Israel is currently an ENEMY of the cross - just like every other non-Jew who also does not believe upon Jesus.

All too often Dispensational folks turn the love of God into mere sentimentality, forgetting that God's wrath equally abides on ALL those who reject Him presently, including Israel. The only 'people of God' that God loves in the truest sense are His elect. Everyone else falls under a 'lesser' type of love, including physical/national Israel. And while I do believe that it is God's will eventually for national Israel to be saved (and Spurgeon also agreed with this), they do not enjoy any other favor from God for now, other than the ability to keep their national identity.

Zechariah 13:7"“9 ??

Hmmm I wonder how that is reconciled in light of Isaiah 6?

Isa 6:9 And he said, "Go, and say to this people: "'Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.'
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."
Isa 6:11 Then I said, "How long, O Lord?" And he said: "Until cities lie waste without inhabitant, and houses without people, and the land is a desolate waste,
Isa 6:12 and the LORD removes people far away, and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
Isa 6:13 And though a tenth remain in it, it will be burned again, like a terebinth or an oak, whose stump remains when it is felled." The holy seed is its stump.

2/3 of 10%?

 

[ReformedWretch]

I am looking forward to this discussion!

 

[ReformedWretch]

Someone butted in and asked this question...

When did Israel ever possess the land from the Euphrates to to the river of Egypt?

 

[ReformedWretch]

Ok, what do you think of these answers to that question?

First, when Moses outlined the borders of the Promised Land, those borders corresponded to the borders of the "Greater Land Promise" (Num. 34:5, 8). The "Brook of Egypt" or the "River of Egypt" is not the Nile, as some mistakenly assume, but rather the Wadi el-'Arish, which served as the southern border of Judah (Josh. 15:1-4), and the "entrance of Hamath" was in the vicinity of the Euphrates River (1 Chr. 18:3).

Second, before the Israelites went into the Promised Land, God repeatedly promised to give them a land that would encompass the boundaries of the Greater Land Promise (Deut. 1:7-8; 11:22-25; Josh. 1:1-6).

Third, after the conquest of Canaan was completed, Joshua said that God had given the Israelites all the land, and they had possessed it and dwelt in it (Josh. 21:43-45; 23:14). If the Promised Land encompassed the borders of the "Greater Land Promise," and if God gave Israel all the land and they possessed it and dwelt in it, then there is only one possible conclusion: the Israelites occupied the territory of the "Greater Land Promise."

Fourth, before the Israelites went into the Promised Land, God promised that He would appoint six cities of refuge if all the land was given (Num. 35:9-15; Deut. 19:7-9). Six cities of refuge were appointed (Josh. 20:1-9). Therefore, we must conclude that all the land was given.

Fifth, the border at the Euphrates was restored during the reigns of David (2 Sam. 8:3) and Jeroboam II (2 Ki. 14:25), and territory cannot be restored that has not already been possessed.

Sixth, Solomon ruled over the territory of the "Greater Land Promise" (1 Ki. 4:21 // 2 Chr. 9:26; 1 Ki. 8:65 // 2 Chr. 7:8).

Seventh, the Levites said that God gave Israel the land of the nations (Neh. 9:7-8, 23-24), which was the land of the "Greater Land Promise."

 

[SmokingFlax]

How 'bout this one for the Dispensationalists:


Matt.21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The Jewish leaders knew who Jesus was referring to...

 

[ReformedWretch]

Oh good greif!

This seems to be his final reply.

Be prepared to read a very long sentence.

After all the scriptures I posted which clearly submit Jesus' intentions regarding Israel, and you still don't get it, and since I am quite sure that I am much older than you, it is more than likely that I will face Jesus before you will. So count on the fact that I will be there when you finally do face Jesus and I will be to remind whoever that you refused all council. And so let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Me Died Blue]

I was about to post a laughing smiley here, until I realized how sad that really is.

 

[Scott Bushey]

I thought we were'nt gonna do this; cutting and pasting etc.???

 

[ReformedWretch]

Exactly.

Can someone answer this for me?

Is there a reformed teacher/preacher that reaches out specifically to dispensationalists? I do what I can and am in no way educated or gifted enough to do just that, but I pray there is some who do.

Or, is it just about the dispensationalists "searching" as I did, thus finding this place?

Thoughts on that?

I just have a passion for those who believe as I once did, especially friends and family.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
I thought we were'nt gonna do this; cutting and pasting etc.???

I'm not using answers from here Scott. Just sharing my attempts. If you don't want me to do that either just say so.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Adam,
It is not proper to quote someone from these other boards without their permission. Generally, we want to stay away from this kind of thing. If you want to exchange ideas with these groups, fine. Please do not drag their stuff over here or ours over there.

For the record, we know the shape of their theology; it is sad.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Ok, then may I politely ask what the purpose of the dispensational board is? I suppose I can "paraphrase" direct quotes in order to hold discussions of them. If we "know" what they think already, again I don't know the purpose of this part of the board.

Is it just to discuss publised authors or televised preachers?

Thing is, this helps me as much as it does others. I am learning as I go as well.

But I suppose I can stop completely.

 

[fredtgreco]

I think that is the key. You can quote someone's response on a board with their permission. You could also provide a link and ask others to be involved on that board. You could also summarize or ask questions. Just don't carry it on over here.

Here's a good rule of thumb: how would you feel if something you wrote here were dragged onto a Arminian board and it was "trashed" by a whole group of people with no chance for you to defend it?

 

[ReformedWretch]

Here's a good rule of thumb: how would you feel if something you wrote here were dragged onto a Arminian board and it was "trashed" by a whole group of people with no chance for you to defend it?

I'm weird Fred.

There's a part of me that would enjoy finding out that was happening. But I "get" your point.

There is a co-worker of mine who LOVES to run and tell people the negative things others are saying about him. She stopped telling me when she began to realize that I enjoyed it.:bigsmile:

 

[turmeric]

Originally posted by houseparent
Can someone answer this for me?
Is there a reformed teacher/preacher that reaches out specifically to dispensationalists?

Send curious Dispensationalists to monergism.com. A lot of them seem to like it and so do many Charismatics. The only hill the owner really wants to die on, as far as I can tell, is monergistic salvation. Once that hill is won, the rest of the territory falls to the Gospel.

 

[SolaScriptura]

When a Dispensational says "IF God doesn't restore the nation of Israel, build the temple and reinstitute sacrifices then God is a liar" I respond with: "Yeah, well if God makes a distinction between Jew and Gentile then God is a liar."

 

[Me Died Blue]

Originally posted by houseparent

Here's a good rule of thumb: how would you feel if something you wrote here were dragged onto a Arminian board and it was "trashed" by a whole group of people with no chance for you to defend it?

I'm weird Fred.

There's a part of me that would enjoy finding out that was happening. But I "get" your point.

There is a co-worker of mine who LOVES to run and tell people the negative things others are saying about him. She stopped telling me when she began to realize that I enjoyed it.:bigsmile:

Odd as it sounds, I can somewhat relate to you here, Adam!

 

[LadyFlynt]

Have any of you noticed (wondering if this is intentional or not)...

that when scanning through posts (and heaven help the dyslexic dispensational!) the

"Dispensational" can look like "dipsy"!

just thought I'd point that out...having been a "Dispensational"

 

[ReformedWretch]

Sort of like Rosh looking like Russia!

You may be onto something!!

 

[turmeric]

Some of us type too fast and it really does say "dipsy"

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Vern Poythress is good for what you are asking Adam. Look at this book.Understanding Dispensationalists

I also liked an old guy named William Cox. He use to be published by P&R. He had a little booklet called 'Why I left Scoffieldism'. Why I left Scoffieldism It has been a very effective little booklet that I have used also.

For Christ's Crown and Covenant, Randy

 

[bigheavyq]

If Jesus was a dispensationalist, what about these passages in Matthew 23:29-39

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon THIS GENERATION.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Selah

 

[Mayflower]

The Puritans and the Promises

Erroll Hulse

Promise 2 - a Programme

There will be a major conversion of the Jews as "˜godlessness is turned away from Jacob´ (Rom 11). This is part of a programme as we will see.

The best-known Puritan expositor of Romans was Elnathan Parr. Parr was educated at Eton, graduated at Cambridge in 1597 and exercised a powerful ministry at Palgrave in Suffolk. He died about 1632. Parr´s commentary on Romans was published in 1620. His exposition on Romans chapters 9 to 11 and on 11 in particular is constraining.

He argues along these lines: God´s rejection of the Jews is neither total nr final. The drift of the passage is to comfort believing Jews, admonish the Gentiles and safeguard them from arrogance. Paul has shown at the conclusion of chapter ten that the Lord has stretched out his hands to a disobedient and gainsaying people, whereas the Gentiles who did not seek him were found by him (Rom 10:20,21). This leads to the question, "˜Has God cast away his people?´

Paul answers with a strong negative, God forbid! He points to his own example, I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham from the tribe of Benjamin. Paul answers too by making an accurate distinction that the Jews are in a special way God´s people, a people whom he foreknew. Furthermore Paul answers the objection by citing an example from the days of Elijah when in spite of apostasy the Lord reserved 7,000 who had not bowed to Baal. In Paul´s day then there was a remnant chosen by grace.

Parr: "˜When he comes to verse eleven Paul shows that the rejection of the Jews is not final but that the multitude (I say not every individual) shall be generally called before the end of the world, that Jews and Gentiles shall make one sheepfold and one flock under one shepherd, Jesus Christ.´

In application Parr: "˜God is infinitely good, who out of the greatest evil, the sin of the Jews, can bring so great good, as the salvation of the Gentiles and Jews. He makes treacle out of our poison and never would suffer any evil to be, if he knew not how to bring good out of it.´

In exposition of verse 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles: how much more their fullness? Parr says, "˜The conversion of the Jews shall be our riches. Gain is pleasing to hear of, but more to have it. We shall be gainers by their conversion. Knowledge shall then increase upon us as waters cover the sea. Blessed are the eyes of them which shall behold that time. Let us pray and long for the revealing of such riches, and in the meantime mourn the hardness of the Jews, and cry unto God on their behalf, saying, O Lord, How Long? Return, O Lord and visit thy ancient people with salvation.´

Parr continues, "˜The casting off of the Jews was our calling but the calling of the Jews shall not be our casting off but our greater enriching in grace.´ Parr sees in the conversion of the Jews a new multiplication of Gentile believers. He quotes Ambrose: "˜The world shall then be a golden world rich in golden men.´ And in respect of graces Parr suggests, "˜They shall then in more abundance be rained down upon the Church.´

On Romans 11:15: For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? Parr declares, "˜The calling of the Jews shall bring an addition of happiness to the world, that is, it shall be revived, to have more life, spirit, vigour, vivacity put into it, both in regard of Jews and Gentiles. Many that are now seduced by papists and Muslims shall then embrace the gospel.´

On Romans 11:16: For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy, Parr answers an objection. "˜How can the nation of the Jews before called rebellious now be called holy? Answer: There is a double holiness, first of regeneration, second of the covenant. In regard to the first they are rebellious; in regard to the second they are holy.´

On the crucial verse 26: And so all Israel shall be saved Parr refutes the idea that in this phrase Israel stands for all the elect. Parr writes: "˜That all the elect shall be saved? Who ever doubted that? But of the calling of the Jews there is doubt. He calls their salvation a secret or mystery but there is nothing mysterious about all the elect being saved. He shows that there is an unbroken reference to Israel/Jacob, that is, ethnic Israel.´ From verses 25-28 Parr concludes, "˜Before the end of the world the Jews in regard to their multitude will be called.´ In this he is followed by Matthew Poole and Matthew Henry.

William Greenhill in his commentary on Ezekiel 39:25-29 says, "˜There is a day of mercy to come for the Jews, even all of them,´and he cites Romans 11:15-27 and Zechariah 10:6.

The way in which they will be brought to repentance and the depth of that repentance is described by George Hutcheson on Zechariah 12:10-14.

And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son each clan by itself... (Zech 12:10-14). Writes Hutcheson, "˜Here is held forth the future conversion and repentance of Israel, the full accomplishment whereof was not that which we read of in primitive times in Acts, but is yet to be accomplished when all their families concur in this work.´ He continues, "˜The conversion of the Jews or Israel unto the Messiah is not to be of some few only, but national of the body of the people, and there will be real repentance among them for all the land shall mourn and all the families that remain, men and their wives.´

Matthew Henry expounds Isaiah 19:25 which tells of a highway like an M1 motorway from Egypt through Israel to Assyria, a dual carriageway from Cairo to Jerusalem to Baghdad. "˜The Gentile nations shall not only unite with each other in the gospel-fold under Christ the great Shepherd, but they shall all be united with the Jews. When Egypt and Assyria become partners in serving God, Israel shall make a third with them (v. 24) they shall become a three-fold cord, not easily broken; the ceremonial law, which had long been the partition- wall between Jews and Gentiles shall be taken down, and then they shall become one sheep-fold, under one shepherd. Thus united, they shall be a blessing in the midst of the land, whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, v 24, 25. Israel shall be a blessing to them all because of them, as concerning the flesh Christ came; and they were the natural branches of the good olive, to whom did originally pertain its root and fatness, and the Gentiles were but grafted in among them, Rom 11:17.´

The likelihood of so great a miracle as the conversion of the Jews on a large scale seems incredible. Parr agrees: "˜But it is now almost sixteen hundred years ago since they were cast off. Is it likely that after so long a time they should be called? Answer: Yes: for the Gentiles lay longer under their own infidelity, and yet at last received grace and were called.´

We might add that there have been Gentile nations so securely locked up in darkness that it seemed totally out of the question that they should be entered by missionaries let alone turned to Christ. Robert Morrison, the first missionary of the modern age to go to China, was compelled to confine himself to working in the Portuguese island of Macau off the coast of China. China was impenetrable. Yet it is estimated even by the enemies of Christ that China today, the most populous nation on earth, has at least fifty million Christians. Another example is Korea. At the beginning of this century the gospel barely existed in Korea yet today that nation is one the greatest missionary-sending countries on earth.

The exposition by Parr of Romans 11 suggests three ingatherings each larger than the former and here we detect the emergence of God´s programme.

1. The first ingathering - Jews and a few Gentiles.

2. The second ingathering - Gentiles and a few Jews.

3. The third ingathering - Jews and Gentiles in abundance.

"˜The web of providence´, suggests Charles Hodge on Romans 11, "˜is wonderfully woven; good and evil is made with equal certainty to result in the promotion of God´s gracious and glorious designs.´

"˜If there was no mystery, no plan of infinite wisdom, then it would be inappropriate to conclude with a hymn of wonder and adoration. Appropriately the hope of a truly universal salvation leads to a hymn of praise of our Creator, the unknowability of his ways, and the certainty that he cannot be deterred from the accomplishment of his purpose.´

Evaluation

Will Elnathan Parr´s exegesis stand up to close scrutiny? The critical point is And so all Israel shall be saved (verse 26). William Hendriksen outlines in detail three views. First that this means all the elect, second that it means all the elect Jews, and thirdly the view that has just been expounded by Parr. Hendriksen takes the and so to mean: in this way all the elect will be saved. Frederic Godet shows that the Greek does mean and thus or in this way, but "˜this way´ refers to the immediately preceding context which is the fullness of the Gentiles´ a fullness that has its effect and impact on the Jews, and so, in this way, all Israel will be saved.

Expositors who endorse Parr´s interpretation are Charles Hodge, Robert Haldane, John Brown of Edinburgh, H G C Moule, Frederic Godet, W G T Shedd, Prof John Murray, Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones, C E B Cranfield, James Dunn and Thomas R Shreiner in his recently published commentary on Romans.

What about the prospect of Romans 11 being fulfilled today? This is the era of the Gentiles. During the 20th century there has been an unprecedented multiplication of evangelical churches in Africa, Latin America and Asia. Apart from a few Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia where every form of Christianity is fiercely persecuted, evangelical churches exist in every nation in the world. Would this be a fullness of the Gentiles? What about the present locality of Jews? In spite of the holocaust, which was a Satanic effort to annihilate the Jews, they have survived and in the Diaspora are found universally, especially in major cities world-wide such as Johannesburg, Sydney, Buenos Aires and New York where they form about one third of the population.

Since 1948 Jews have returned from a world-wide Diaspora to Israel. In 1967 the prophecy of our Lord was fulfilled: Jerusalem shall be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled (Luke 21:24). Today there are Christian churches in Israel. This year when a Reformed pastor baptised twelve converts to be added to his church of about 300, it caused such concern that it was even debated in the Knesset (Parliament) of Israel and caught the attention of the mass media which gave opportunity for Jewish converts to testify on national TV as to how they came to faith in Jesus.

There is much more today to encourage prayer for the fulfilment of the promises of Romans 11 than there was in the 17th century. Yet we do well to heed the wonderful counsel of Francis Turretin: "˜As to the quality and extent of that conversion, whether it will be national and universal of all or particular of some; whether simultaneous or successive; and how, by what means and in what time it will go forward, is safer to be unknown than to be rashly defined, the Holy Spirit stamping this mystery with his seal.´[2]

[2] Francis Turretin, Institutes of Elenctic Theology, Three volumes, Puritan & Reformed, see comments vol. 3, p 587