John 14 v12 - support for charismatics?

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Eoghan

Eoghan

Puritan Board Senior
What are the works that Christ is referring to. In dialogue withanother he maintains it must be signs and wonders, I am thinking work as in day-to-day work. By that I understand preaching and converting.
 
The first thing we need to ask is, Who gets to define what "greater" means—God, or man? It is a common theme throughout Scripture that God works mightily through things which, in the world's or man's eyes, seem weak and foolish. Consider the fact that God worked the bringing down of the nation of Egypt through a few Hebrew midwives.
 
Eoghan said:
What are the works that Christ is referring to. In dialogue withanother he maintains it must be signs and wonders, I am thinking work as in day-to-day work.
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If by "greater" Jesus was speaking of miracles like walking on water, raising the dead, multiplying the loaves and fishes, then don't you think the first thing to consider is—are these things happening today? And, are they happening in either greater frequency or still greater miracles? All, except maybe Bennie Hinn, would have to answer in the negative. Then you might ask whether Jesus was wrong, lying, or exaggerating, crazy, or just plain wrong? A false prophet.

By the typo "withanother," did you mean with the other [Apostles]? Or something else?

Was He speaking to only the Apostles? Or was He speaking of the truly more significant miracles of preaching that leads to a whole New Creation? (2 Corinthians 5:17) To the best of my recollection, the disciples never, by there own words, lead anyone to Christ?
 
In reply I think that while Jesus drew the crowds, they came for the wrong reason. Yes if you could heal people you would draw huge crowds of sick people. They would not come to be cured of sin or have their guilt before God dealt with.
In John 6:26-27 Jesus clearly states that the crowds come not because they see the signs pointing to Him as the Son of God but because they had their bellies filled. They were "rice-bowl believers" before the term was invented.

After performing miracles Christ always had to withdraw, why? Because people were coming for the wrong reasons. They came not begging to be cleansed of sin but leprosy, they didn't want to listen to His words or change their lives they just wanted to be cured. Yes individuals were brought to faith, but once the Holy Spirit came after His ascension whole families came to faith. Tens of thousands put their faith in Christ and were "born again". That spiritual birth and the scale of it is in my opinion the true "work" of Christ. It is invisible and manifests only in changed lives but it is both the fruit and evidence of a true work of the Holy Spirit.

Yes Paul worked miracles yet in his evangelism there was no "power evangelism" after the fashion of John Wimber's book. The power that Paul relied on was the power of the Gospel in sharp contrast to the expected signs and wonders that the unbelieving Jews asked for -

Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness but to those who are the called both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

The only (normative) miracles today are the new birth when someone becomes a Christian, not for wealth, not for health but because a Crucified and Resurrected Christ answers their need of a Saviour.
 
Ed Walsh said:
By the typo "withanother," did you mean with the other [Apostles]? Or something else?
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Hi Ed, I simply meant in dialogue with a minister. He has had charismatic leanings for some time but is now becoming much more public about it. I hope that in bringing things out into the open he sorts things out. As a fellowship we are trying to speak to him as individuals rather than involve Presbytery (at this stage).
 
John Calvin --
First, we must understand what Christ means; namely, that the power by which he proves himself to be the Son of God, is so far from being confined to his bodily presence, that it must be clearly demonstrated by many and striking proofs, when he is absent. Now the ascension of Christ was soon afterwards followed by a wonderful conversion of the world, in which the Divinity of Christ was more powerfully displayed than while he dwelt among men. Thus, we see that the proof of his Divinity was not confined to the person of Christ, but was diffused through the whole body of the Church.
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John Gill -
meaning, not greater in nature and kind, but more in number; for the apostles, in a long series of time, and course of years, went about preaching the Gospel, not in Judea only, but in all the world; "God also bearing them witness with signs and wonders, and divers miracles and gifts of the Holy Ghost", Heb 2:4, wherever they went: though perhaps by these greater works may be meant the many instances of conversion, which the apostles were instrumental in, and which were more in number than those which were under our Lord's personal ministry: besides, the conversion of a sinner is a greater work than any of the miracles of raising the dead, &c. for this includes in it all miracles: here we may see a sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, quickened; one born blind made to see; one who was deaf to the threatenings of the law, and to the charming voice of the Gospel, made to hear, so as to live; and one that had the spreading leprosy of sin all over him, cleansed from it by the blood of the Lamb yea, though a miracle in nature is an instance and proof of divine power, yet the conversion of a sinner, which is a miracle in grace, is not only an instance of the power of God, and of the greatness of it, but of the exceeding greatness of it: and the rather one may be induced to give in to this sense of the passage, since it is added, as a reason,
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Jameson Fausset Brown -
The substance of this passage is that the Son is the ordained and perfect manifestation of the Father, that His own word for this ought to His disciples to be enough; that if any doubts remained His works ought to remove them (see on Joh 10:37); but yet that these works of His were designed merely to aid weak faith, and would be repeated, nay exceeded, by His disciples, in virtue of the power He would confer on them after His departure. His miracles the apostles wrought, though wholly in His name and by His power, and the "greater" works—not in degree but in kind—were the conversion of thousands in a day, by His Spirit accompanying them.
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Matthew Henry -
That they should do greater works than these. [1.] In the kingdom of nature they should work greater miracles. No miracle is little, but some to our apprehension seem greater than others. Christ had healed with the hem of his garment, but Peter with his shadow (Acts v. 15), Paul by the handkerchief that had touched him, Acts xix. 12. Christ wrought miracles for two or three years in one country, but his followers wrought miracles in his name for many ages in divers countries. You shall do greater works, if there be occasion, for the glory of God. The prayer of faith, if at any time it had been necessary, would have removed mountains.[2.] In the kingdom of grace. They should obtain greater victories by the gospel than had been obtained while Christ was upon earth. The truth is, the captivating of so great a part of the world to Christ, under such outward disadvantages, was the miracle of all. I think this refers especially to the gift of tongues; this was the immediate effect of the pouring out of the Spirit, which was a constant miracle upon the mind, in which words are framed, and which was made to serve so glorious an intention as that of spreading the gospel to all nations in their own language.This was a greater sign to them that believed not (1 Cor. xiv. 22), and more powerful for their conviction, than any other miracle whatever.
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The Lord meant that we could reach out and impact many more, as He was in the physical body at that time and could not outreach to all as we can now.
 
John Gill is pretty close to John MacArthur. Greater in extent and geater in number.
greater (meizon G3187) things John 14v12 bigger i.e. Greater London.

The word greater can simply mean bigger, (Luke 12:18 I will pull down my barns and build greater barns. Mathew 13:32 the greatest amongst the herbs - mustard seed)
 
Eoghan said:
John Gill is pretty close to John MacArthur. Greater in extent and geater in number.
greater (meizon G3187) things John 14v12 bigger i.e. Greater London.

The word greater can simply mean bigger, (Luke 12:18 I will pull down my barns and build greater barns. Mathew 13:32 the greatest amongst the herbs - mustard seed)
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Jesus has done far more through His church in History in sense of reaching more people than ever could have while here in His localized physical body.
 
Ed Walsh said:
are these things happening today? And, are they happening in either greater frequency or still greater miracles?
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Steve Hays has documented modern miracles accounts. I linked to it in the other day.

There is a lot of double-entry book keeping going on in these discussions. First, someone says, "Why aren't we seeing them today?" I provide links.
"Yeah, but that can't really happen."

That's why these discussions go nowhere.
 
Eoghan said:
The only (normative) miracles today are the new birth when someone becomes a Christian, not for wealth, not for health but because a Crucified and Resurrected Christ answers their need of a Saviour.
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Obviously, no one denies the new birth is the most important miracle. But from the narrative itself that is not the issue in discussion. And bringing up "wealth" ties this to the prosperity gospel, which is a completely different issue.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
Obviously, no one denies the new birth is the most important miracle. But from the narrative itself that is not the issue in discussion. And bringing up "wealth" ties this to the prosperity gospel, which is a completely different issue.
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Most of modern Charasimatic theology is health and wealth and word if faith heresies.
 
Dachaser said:
Acts is not normitive for us today, as it reflects the historical transition period from Old to New Covenants.
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Do you have a verse that says Acts is not normative? Lots of things in Acts are normative for us:
1) Acts 15
2) Acts 20 regarding elders.
3) Numerous commands to repent and believe.
 
There have been no Apostles since that time in the Church, and they must be here tohave those sign gifts in operation.
 
Dachaser said:
There have been no Apostles since that time in the Church, and they must be here tohave those sign gifts in operation.
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This is an assertion.

No they don't. Stephen wasn't an apostle. He did miracles. Philip's daughters weren't apostles. They prophecied.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
No one denies that, but that doesn't mean both can't happen.
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Far be it for me to say that miracles don't or can't happen today. There is no agreed-upon dogma of cessationism (except maybe @Dachaser 's) that I know of. I know what people say—as miracles ended with the death of the Apostles and other such things.

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter 5 section 3​
iii. God, in His ordinary providence, maketh use of means,
yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure.

Re: David [@Dachaser] Unless I am mistaken, I seem to remember that he doesn't even believe in answer to prayer in any unique way. I no longer interact with David on the subject. But will be happy to do so so if what I remember about his opinion is inaccurate.
Correct me if I am wrong, David.
 
Ed Walsh said:

Far be it for me to say that miracles don't or can't happen today. There is no agreed-upon dogma of cessationism (except maybe @Dachaser 's) that I know of. I know what people say—as miracles ended with the death of the Apostles and other such things.

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter 5 section 3​
iii. God, in His ordinary providence, maketh use of means,
yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure.

Re: David [@Dachaser] Unless I am mistaken, I seem to remember that he doesn't even believe in answer to prayer in any unique way. I no longer interact with David on the subject. But will be happy to do so so if what I remember about his opinion is inaccurate.
Correct me if I am wrong, David.
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I believe that God has ordained that prayers are for us to seek Him, to ask and receive all things in His will for us to obtain. I do not say that God cannot do things now as He did say in Acts, but that was a peculiar time in history, and is not the norm for us to expect today.
 
Dachaser said:
I believe that God has ordained that prayers are for us to seek Him, to ask and receive all things in His will for us to obtain. I do not say that God cannot do things now as He did say in Acts, but that was a peculiar time in history, and is not the norm for us to expect today.
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If this is an accurate statement of your views than I owe you an apology for misrepresenting you. I didn't take the time to look up our past discussions, but I remember (at least I thought I did) you taking a rather strict cessationist's position. Please forgive me if I wronged you.

Although I am not a wild-eyed continuationist hoping to one day walk on water, neither am I a cessationist since the only evidence that exists for miracles ceasing is the observation that they are not happening in the same way as done by Jesus and the Apostles. The single verse that seems to hint at cessationism is Hebrews 1:1-2. But then you have the problem that when Hebrews was written, the Apostle John was still alive. And who knows what the future has in store? I'm kinda an early and latter rain type of guy.

So am I forgiven???
 
Back to the OP, it may or may not support continuationism. The continuationist thesis stands or falls independent of this.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
Back to the OP, it may or may not support continuationism. The continuationist thesis stands or falls independent of this.
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Jacob, or should I call you Tucker :)

I see you referenced the OP, but I can't understand what your comment means.

Eoghan said:
What are the works that Christ is referring to. In dialogue with another he maintains it must be signs and wonders, I am thinking work as in day-to-day work. By that I understand preaching and converting.
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Were you referring to one of my posts? I'm having trouble with the word 'it.' If I am just plain dense, no need to explain.

Thanks,

Ed
 
BayouHuguenot said:
Back to the OP, it may or may not support continuationism. The continuationist thesis stands or falls independent of this.
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You have to really define though what it means to hold to ceasing the gifts then, as I know none who are saying all gifts ceased, just that like me, the signs and wonders did after Apostolic Age!
 
Dachaser said:
You have to really define though what it means to hold to ceasing the gifts then, as I know none who are saying all gifts ceased, just that like me, the signs and wonders did after Apostolic Age!
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"hold to ceasing the gifts." You are using a participle/gerund as an infinitive. I don't know what you are saying.

You know what I am talking about. You know I am not saying that the gift of preaching ceased.
 
Ed Walsh said:
I see you referenced the OP, but I can't understand what your comment means.
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I am addressing the claim that John 14.12 supports continuationism. I have never used that verse one way or another. I will say that to change "miracle" from something super-nature to mean "the new birth" is to torture the text.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
I am addressing the claim that John 14.12 supports continuationism. I have never used that verse one way or another. I will say that to change "miracle" from something super-nature to mean "the new birth" is to torture the text.
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It is a bit of a stretch to me too. I guess the other claims have tried to harmonize the outward miracles with the inward miracle of the new birth because the feared third option would be—Jesus was wrong.
Or, of course, He was only speaking of the Twelve and a few deacons and not to us.
 
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