John 14 v12 - support for charismatics?

Discussion in 'The Gospels & Acts' started by Eoghan, Aug 1, 2019.

  1. Eoghan

    Eoghan Puritan Board Senior

    What are the works that Christ is referring to. In dialogue withanother he maintains it must be signs and wonders, I am thinking work as in day-to-day work. By that I understand preaching and converting.
     
  2. Taylor Sexton

    Taylor Sexton Puritan Board Junior

    The first thing we need to ask is, Who gets to define what "greater" means—God, or man? It is a common theme throughout Scripture that God works mightily through things which, in the world's or man's eyes, seem weak and foolish. Consider the fact that God worked the bringing down of the nation of Egypt through a few Hebrew midwives.
     
  3. Ed Walsh

    Ed Walsh Puritan Board Junior

    If by "greater" Jesus was speaking of miracles like walking on water, raising the dead, multiplying the loaves and fishes, then don't you think the first thing to consider is—are these things happening today? And, are they happening in either greater frequency or still greater miracles? All, except maybe Bennie Hinn, would have to answer in the negative. Then you might ask whether Jesus was wrong, lying, or exaggerating, crazy, or just plain wrong? A false prophet.

    By the typo "withanother," did you mean with the other [Apostles]? Or something else?

    Was He speaking to only the Apostles? Or was He speaking of the truly more significant miracles of preaching that leads to a whole New Creation? (2 Corinthians 5:17) To the best of my recollection, the disciples never, by there own words, lead anyone to Christ?
     
  4. Eoghan

    Eoghan Puritan Board Senior

    In reply I think that while Jesus drew the crowds, they came for the wrong reason. Yes if you could heal people you would draw huge crowds of sick people. They would not come to be cured of sin or have their guilt before God dealt with.
    In John 6:26-27 Jesus clearly states that the crowds come not because they see the signs pointing to Him as the Son of God but because they had their bellies filled. They were "rice-bowl believers" before the term was invented.

    After performing miracles Christ always had to withdraw, why? Because people were coming for the wrong reasons. They came not begging to be cleansed of sin but leprosy, they didn't want to listen to His words or change their lives they just wanted to be cured. Yes individuals were brought to faith, but once the Holy Spirit came after His ascension whole families came to faith. Tens of thousands put their faith in Christ and were "born again". That spiritual birth and the scale of it is in my opinion the true "work" of Christ. It is invisible and manifests only in changed lives but it is both the fruit and evidence of a true work of the Holy Spirit.

    Yes Paul worked miracles yet in his evangelism there was no "power evangelism" after the fashion of John Wimber's book. The power that Paul relied on was the power of the Gospel in sharp contrast to the expected signs and wonders that the unbelieving Jews asked for -

    Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness but to those who are the called both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    The only (normative) miracles today are the new birth when someone becomes a Christian, not for wealth, not for health but because a Crucified and Resurrected Christ answers their need of a Saviour.
     
  5. Eoghan

    Eoghan Puritan Board Senior

    Hi Ed, I simply meant in dialogue with a minister. He has had charismatic leanings for some time but is now becoming much more public about it. I hope that in bringing things out into the open he sorts things out. As a fellowship we are trying to speak to him as individuals rather than involve Presbytery (at this stage).
     
  6. Kinghezy

    Kinghezy Puritan Board Freshman

    John Calvin --
    John Gill -
    Jameson Fausset Brown -
    Matthew Henry -
     
  7. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

     
  8. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    The Lord meant that we could reach out and impact many more, as He was in the physical body at that time and could not outreach to all as we can now.
     
  9. Eoghan

    Eoghan Puritan Board Senior

    John Gill is pretty close to John MacArthur. Greater in extent and geater in number.
    greater (meizon G3187) things John 14v12 bigger i.e. Greater London.

    The word greater can simply mean bigger, (Luke 12:18 I will pull down my barns and build greater barns. Mathew 13:32 the greatest amongst the herbs - mustard seed)
     
  10. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Jesus has done far more through His church in History in sense of reaching more people than ever could have while here in His localized physical body.
     
  11. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Steve Hays has documented modern miracles accounts. I linked to it in the other day.

    There is a lot of double-entry book keeping going on in these discussions. First, someone says, "Why aren't we seeing them today?" I provide links.
    "Yeah, but that can't really happen."

    That's why these discussions go nowhere.
     
  12. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    No one denies that, but that doesn't mean both can't happen.
     
  13. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Obviously, no one denies the new birth is the most important miracle. But from the narrative itself that is not the issue in discussion. And bringing up "wealth" ties this to the prosperity gospel, which is a completely different issue.
     
  14. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Acts is not normitive for us today, as it reflects the historical transition period from Old to New Covenants.
     
  15. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Most of modern Charasimatic theology is health and wealth and word if faith heresies.
     
  16. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Do you have a verse that says Acts is not normative? Lots of things in Acts are normative for us:
    1) Acts 15
    2) Acts 20 regarding elders.
    3) Numerous commands to repent and believe.
     
  17. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    So? I'm dealing with logic and exegesis. Since you all like to use the word "normative" a lot, that's where your norms come from. Logic and exegesis.
     
  18. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    There have been no Apostles since that time in the Church, and they must be here tohave those sign gifts in operation.
     
  19. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    This is an assertion.

    No they don't. Stephen wasn't an apostle. He did miracles. Philip's daughters weren't apostles. They prophecied.
     
  20. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    both the offices of the Prophet and Apostle have ceased, correct?
     
  21. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Apostle, sure. Prophet is a bit trickier. I don't see Philip's daughters as carrying that type of weight if prophet is meant to be some super apostolic office.
     
  22. Ed Walsh

    Ed Walsh Puritan Board Junior

    Far be it for me to say that miracles don't or can't happen today. There is no agreed-upon dogma of cessationism (except maybe @Dachaser 's) that I know of. I know what people say—as miracles ended with the death of the Apostles and other such things.

    Westminster Confession of Faith
    Chapter 5 section 3
    iii. God, in His ordinary providence, maketh use of means,
    yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure.

    Re: David [@Dachaser] Unless I am mistaken, I seem to remember that he doesn't even believe in answer to prayer in any unique way. I no longer interact with David on the subject. But will be happy to do so so if what I remember about his opinion is inaccurate.
    Correct me if I am wrong, David.
     
  23. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    I believe that God has ordained that prayers are for us to seek Him, to ask and receive all things in His will for us to obtain. I do not say that God cannot do things now as He did say in Acts, but that was a peculiar time in history, and is not the norm for us to expect today.
     
  24. Ed Walsh

    Ed Walsh Puritan Board Junior

    If this is an accurate statement of your views than I owe you an apology for misrepresenting you. I didn't take the time to look up our past discussions, but I remember (at least I thought I did) you taking a rather strict cessationist's position. Please forgive me if I wronged you.

    Although I am not a wild-eyed continuationist hoping to one day walk on water, neither am I a cessationist since the only evidence that exists for miracles ceasing is the observation that they are not happening in the same way as done by Jesus and the Apostles. The single verse that seems to hint at cessationism is Hebrews 1:1-2. But then you have the problem that when Hebrews was written, the Apostle John was still alive. And who knows what the future has in store? I'm kinda an early and latter rain type of guy.

    So am I forgiven???
     
  25. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Back to the OP, it may or may not support continuationism. The continuationist thesis stands or falls independent of this.
     
  26. Ed Walsh

    Ed Walsh Puritan Board Junior

    Jacob, or should I call you Tucker :)

    I see you referenced the OP, but I can't understand what your comment means.

    Were you referring to one of my posts? I'm having trouble with the word 'it.' If I am just plain dense, no need to explain.

    Thanks,

    Ed
     
  27. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    You have to really define though what it means to hold to ceasing the gifts then, as I know none who are saying all gifts ceased, just that like me, the signs and wonders did after Apostolic Age!
     
  28. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    "hold to ceasing the gifts." You are using a participle/gerund as an infinitive. I don't know what you are saying.

    You know what I am talking about. You know I am not saying that the gift of preaching ceased.
     
  29. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    I am addressing the claim that John 14.12 supports continuationism. I have never used that verse one way or another. I will say that to change "miracle" from something super-nature to mean "the new birth" is to torture the text.
     
  30. Ed Walsh

    Ed Walsh Puritan Board Junior

    It is a bit of a stretch to me too. I guess the other claims have tried to harmonize the outward miracles with the inward miracle of the new birth because the feared third option would be—Jesus was wrong.
    Or, of course, He was only speaking of the Twelve and a few deacons and not to us.
     

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